The precept to refrain from destroying living creatures

[rideforever]

Hello

I don't understand why this is a precept.  (It is taken from Thailand's Northern Insight Meditation Centre)

In my stomach right now is a war between my immune system and hundreds of thousands of small organisms ... it is a slaughter, every second I kill many many creatures.  This is the nature of my body.

Also, what is the difference between a granite rock and a bacteria ?  Is there any ?  Can a bacteria feel existence and a rock not ?  Should I define one thing as being valuable and the other not (living / non-living) ?

So I don't understand why this is a precept.  I would prefer something like "maintain mindfulness".

?

RF

[Morning Dew]

Mate, your self is covering your mind with tons of shit cant you see this?
This is not a philosophy forum but a vipassana meditation forum.
Your ego self is hitting you hard i see, so stick in there and do not take it seriously. Keep calming and step away a little so you can observe this self which is pondering so much.
Precept no precept, stone or a bacterium, it is very likely that there is nothing out there nor in there. Very likely there is no in or out there either.

Calm and humble, calm and humble. Find a hobby you can wrap your mind arround. Simplify your life a little.

As soon you feel such questions rising remind yourself to calm the body. And point yourself to humblesness, simplify. Let go of big questions. Let them be and go away it just doesnt matter.

Go out fishing and be mindful about hurting the fish while unhooking it and ripping it intestines out and frying it afterwards and eating it just to several hours later give it back to the nature in form of fertliser.

Remain calm remain mindful remain humble, simplify... or not!

[mtnmed]

Keep in mind that I am a complete beginner here. Nonetheless this is my observation....INTENT! Willing intent to harm is what we should avoid. Examples: In high school I loved nothing more that to pick a fight...win or lose I got a thrill out of punching someone in the face and INTENDED to do them harm. I also loved to deer hunt and did so as a family tradition, right of passage, good eats...what have you. Until you have aimed a weapon at a beautiful living creature, pulled the trigger, witnessed it`s death and then consumed from it, you may not understand my point. Until you have contemplated the act of striking another human with a thrilling desire to injure you may not understand. Each step we take when walking in the woods "kills" something. Each time we shower some organism dies. Consumption food usually results in some form of death whether to the plant or the organsims residing within or relying upon it. I would ask if there is malicious intent in these acts? If the heart is pure and the intention good, acknowlege that death is imenent for all living organisms at some point and move on. These are just my rambling thoughts, but those by which I live.

[rideforever]

Mate, your self is covering your mind with tons of shit cant you see this?
This is not a philosophy forum but a vipassana meditation forum.
Your ego self is hitting you hard i see, so stick in there and do not take it seriously. Keep calming and step away a little so you can observe this self which is pondering so much.
Precept no precept, stone or a bacterium, it is very likely that there is nothing out there nor in there. Very likely there is no in or out there either.

Calm and humble, calm and humble. Find a hobby you can wrap your mind arround. Simplify your life a little.

As soon you feel such questions rising remind yourself to calm the body. And point yourself to humblesness, simplify. Let go of big questions. Let them be and go away it just doesnt matter.

Go out fishing and be mindful about hurting the fish while unhooking it and ripping it intestines out and frying it afterwards and eating it just to several hours later give it back to the nature in form of fertliser.

Remain calm remain mindful remain humble, simplify... or not!

Garbage : that's all I hear when you talk.  What actually is your view ?  Is it that you don't care and it's all garbage ?  Well you are certainly making a lot of noise telling everyone how little you care !!! Ha !

If you don't care, don't post - maybe your silence will talk.  If you do care then address the fing issue.

I hear a teaching, I don't understand, I ask for clarification.

[mtnmed]

Mate, your self is covering your mind with tons of shit cant you see this?
This is not a philosophy forum but a vipassana meditation forum.
Your ego self is hitting you hard i see, so stick in there and do not take it seriously. Keep calming and step away a little so you can observe this self which is pondering so much.
Precept no precept, stone or a bacterium, it is very likely that there is nothing out there nor in there. Very likely there is no in or out there either.

Calm and humble, calm and humble. Find a hobby you can wrap your mind arround. Simplify your life a little.

As soon you feel such questions rising remind yourself to calm the body. And point yourself to humblesness, simplify. Let go of big questions. Let them be and go away it just doesnt matter.

Go out fishing and be mindful about hurting the fish while unhooking it and ripping it intestines out and frying it afterwards and eating it just to several hours later give it back to the nature in form of fertliser.

Remain calm remain mindful remain humble, simplify... or not!

Garbage : that's all I hear when you talk.  What actually is your view ?  Is it that you don't care and it's all garbage ?  Well you are certainly making a lot of noise telling everyone how little you care !!! Ha !

If you don't care, don't post - maybe your silence will talk.  If you do care then address the fing issue.

I hear a teaching, I don't understand, I ask for clarification.

Again, as a beginner I see no attempt at compassion or understanding in this kind of "attacking" post. Perhaps you are well and truly enlightened and if so I envy you that. If not, I might suggest a more compassionate and caring intent to help? You seem to be very judgmental of others thoughts and struggles. Does this speak to your own?

[mtnmed]

I now feel that I must re evaluate my participation in this forum. So far it seems it is no more or less of a pissing match between internet tough guys that resort to profanity and attacking others thoughts, questions and opinions. Perhaps I am nieve, which I can accept, but I have seen much hypocrasy so far....be kind and compassionate...until someone posts something that you disagree with... then flame them as you would on a sports forum or such. I will be around for a few more days to see if I can use this site as a place of education and peace, but so far...I am skeptical. Too much negativity, profanity and argumentativness.

[Quardamon]

Hello Rideforever,

It seems, that you invite me and others to defend this precept.

I have seen you and see you as someone who is careful about how to live his life, someone who, with all the chaos and anger and and hurt in his life still wants to make contact and be careful and even gentle, if he sees a possibility to be gentle.  
Of course I can be wrong, but that is how I see you.

So I see no need to defend this precept.

It does take a lot of streching to have the experience of a war going on inside oneself, and at the same time be careful in one's actions. I do acknowledge that. If I am in a position to give such an acknowledgement at all. I meet the wish to do evil rarely, and even then mostly on the cushion.

In my humble opinion it is not for us humans to decide wether a bacteria or a granite rock are alive or not. I like to see them both as alive and myself as part of life. But of course they will not take my vision as their command. I cannot order them to live or order them to be lifeless.

Be well,

Quardamon

[Matthew]

Hello

I don't understand why this is a precept.  (It is taken from Thailand's Northern Insight Meditation Centre)

In my stomach right now is a war between my immune system and hundreds of thousands of small organisms ... it is a slaughter, every second I kill many many creatures.  This is the nature of my body.

Also, what is the difference between a granite rock and a bacteria ?  Is there any ?  Can a bacteria feel existence and a rock not ?  Should I define one thing as being valuable and the other not (living / non-living) ?

So I don't understand why this is a precept.  I would prefer something like "maintain mindfulness".

?

RF

RF,

I eat meat. Whatever you do, do it mindfully. Don't give yourself a hard time over details. The main thing is to practice not perplexed by guilt or too much thinking or ideas. Experience being you.

I now feel that I must re evaluate my participation in this forum. So far it seems it is no more or less of a pissing match between internet tough guys that resort to profanity and attacking others thoughts, questions and opinions. Perhaps I am nieve, which I can accept, but I have seen much hypocrasy so far....be kind and compassionate...until someone posts something that you disagree with... then flame them as you would on a sports forum or such. I will be around for a few more days to see if I can use this site as a place of education and peace, but so far...I am skeptical. Too much negativity, profanity and argumentativness.

mtnmed,

I'm sorry you experience the forum this way. A lot of what goes on is humorous, yet when things get rough it can be off-putting. Perhaps you will stay around to see how things calm.

I would ask everyone else to please be mindful of the reader when posting and not to post in anger. Read what you have written a couple of times and think how it will be perceived.

Matthew

[rideforever]

Hello

I am also puzzled by my question, and puzzled by the precept.  Is it meant to be taken literally ?  Mostly in society things that are said are vague.  People are so busy being not-themselves that the question of taking something literally does not arise because the objective is to exploit the situation to satisfy the ego.

But I have an interest in reality.  In literality.  What is the meaning of the precept when clearly life is destroyed continually.  Is it aimed at simple minded people ?  And if it is, is the intention for them to repress their action ?  And if it is will the repression of the impulse not lead to further issues for that person ? 

Is it that the originator of the precept wants to indicate that mindfulness in all things is important ?

What is the reason to select this activity (killing) as something to make a precept out of ?  I mean this is the sense of the content of the precept, and also the motivation of the person who invented this precept - Buddha ?

Che Gebuddha has felt that this is a meaningless question ?  I feel he often tramples on my sincere questions ... for him I would say 'what is your intention when you post these things' ? ... is it that you want people to share your experience of meaninglessness in the world ?  My response is that having had glimpses beyond my conditioning I see that the world is nothing.  However it still remains.  When I leave this room I shall use the door rather than floating through the wall, because although I have seen it doesn't exist, it still exists.

For me, I want to inquire into this precept ... what it is ?  what is meant by it ?  what is the motivation by the originator ?  what is to be done with it ?

It is an inquiry in to what is in front of me.  Call it philosophy / meditation / garbage.  I am inquiring, it is unclear to me.

RF

[Matthew]

Dear RF,

The meaning of the precept is explicit. Implicit is that that all life has inherent equal value and who are we to play the gods? If taken literally one is certainly vegetarian and rejects all forms of animal exploitation.

Matthew

[rideforever]

Hello

I don't understand why this is a precept.  (It is taken from Thailand's Northern Insight Meditation Centre)

In my stomach right now is a war between my immune system and hundreds of thousands of small organisms ... it is a slaughter, every second I kill many many creatures.  This is the nature of my body.

Also, what is the difference between a granite rock and a bacteria ?  Is there any ?  Can a bacteria feel existence and a rock not ?  Should I define one thing as being valuable and the other not (living / non-living) ?

So I don't understand why this is a precept.  I would prefer something like "maintain mindfulness".

?

RF

RF,

I eat meat. Whatever you do, do it mindfully. Don't give yourself a hard time over details. The main thing is to practice not perplexed by guilt or too much thinking or ideas. Experience being you.

What is your view on why the precept is as it is rather than 'whatever you do, do it mindfully' ?

[rideforever]

Dear RF,

The meaning of the precept is explicit. Implicit is that that all life has inherent equal value and who are we to play the gods? If taken literally one is certainly vegetarian and rejects all forms of animal exploitation.

Matthew

'explicit' : I assume you mean to take it literally then.  I would ask then what the purpose of the precept is ?  Isn't the precept based on identification with the ego ?  Doesn't it encourage identification with the ego ?

[rideforever]

Hello Rideforever,

It seems, that you invite me and others to defend this precept.

I have seen you and see you as someone who is careful about how to live his life, someone who, with all the chaos and anger and and hurt in his life still wants to make contact and be careful and even gentle, if he sees a possibility to be gentle.  
Of course I can be wrong, but that is how I see you.

So I see no need to defend this precept.

It does take a lot of streching to have the experience of a war going on inside oneself, and at the same time be careful in one's actions. I do acknowledge that. If I am in a position to give such an acknowledgement at all. I meet the wish to do evil rarely, and even then mostly on the cushion.

In my humble opinion it is not for us humans to decide wether a bacteria or a granite rock are alive or not. I like to see them both as alive and myself as part of life. But of course they will not take my vision as their command. I cannot order them to live or order them to be lifeless.

Be well,

Quardamon

I am inviting you to inquire into this precept with me.

[soma]

mtnmed,
A lot of what goes on is humorous, yet when things get rough it can be off-putting. Perhaps you will stay around to see how things calm.
Matthew

AH ! Finally I get what this forum is about ! Vipassanaforum eh ? ... nudge nudge  

rideforever wrote :

I am inviting you to inquire into this precept with me.

Thats exactly what every distracting thought asks of you all the time, ' I am inviting you to inquire into this ... with me.'

[joy]

I now feel that I must re evaluate my participation in this forum. So far it seems it is no more or less of a pissing match between internet tough guys that resort to profanity and attacking others thoughts, questions and opinions. Perhaps I am nieve, which I can accept, but I have seen much hypocrasy so far....be kind and compassionate...until someone posts something that you disagree with... then flame them as you would on a sports forum or such. I will be around for a few more days to see if I can use this site as a place of education and peace, but so far...I am skeptical. Too much negativity, profanity and argumentativness.

mtnmed,

I'm sorry you experience the forum this way. A lot of what goes on is humorous, yet when things get rough it can be off-putting. Perhaps you will stay around to see how things calm.

I would ask everyone else to please be mindful of the reader when posting and not to post in anger. Read what you have written a couple of times and think how it will be perceived.

Matthew

Any control/regulation is like putting a dam on the river.
Better, this forum flows like a river naturally with “some negativity, profanity and argumentativeness” and of course with reasonable amount of ‘shits’, etc. Otherwise it will be boring, dead and look like fabricated (and TIB will not allow that ).
Happy learning,

[Morning Dew]

Thats exactly what every distracting thought asks of you all the time, ' I am inviting you to inquire into this ... with me.'

So true and this was my point of view. Today it is the precept, next time it will be "why does a Camel has two humps". I say not that these enquieries are to be taken as something not needed to be taken into the light of reason but not until one reaches a "certain" ammount of calm and insight.
Enquiering into these questions while the mind is totaly disturbed is of no use. It just gives birth to new ideas.

mtnmed my friend you sound like me just several month ago when i pressed the Delete Account button on this forum because i thought back then how rude Goenka vs non-Goenka views where. I wanted to go away from this (in my head) negative place. You know what? I am happy i listened ti TIB telling me to stay and wait it out. You know what? I stayed and remain in daily practicing (which realy matters, forgett about this forum nonsense sometimes) and i gained cerrain insight into our conditioned human nature. We are not the way we are because we have control over our actions! We are the way we are because we havent! And that is the very reason why we are here to try and be free from suffering! But it is a bumppy road this is and it is as it is.
Try to take all your thought off the cussion as you do on the cussion; just observe then and cling not to the, react not and some insight might pop out of it Actualy


RF mate did you try to meditate on this question instead of pure ego pondering (was the originator right or wrong or drunk). Try it and report. I bet you that you will see it as just as another idea nothing more and nothing less.

I teach people the philosophy of responsible fish keeping. I feel that it is ok killing for food but not so ok keeping animals irresponsibly. Fish die in this hobby becouse people take them as toys not understanding their natural environment and basic fish compatibility. Is this hobby good or bad?
I almost left this job of mine because of this pondering but my wife kept me in by saying what would this fish do if all people like you (meaning not many) would be replaced by those sales persons who care only to sell and not advuce customers about proper fish keeping. She made a point. This hobby is here and will not disapear for long. Until then i will try my best to save some of the sentien beings by educating their keepers about how to maintain their portable eco-system without unnecessery deaths caused by ignorance and all because "i feel so bored and will have a fish in a bowl to look at it" "i will call it Squshy and he will be mine"

Report

[torgeir]

I don't understand why this is a precept.  (It is taken from Thailand's Northern Insight Meditation Centre)

In my stomach right now is a war between my immune system and hundreds of thousands of small organisms ... it is a slaughter, every second I kill many many creatures.  This is the nature of my body.
....
So I don't understand why this is a precept.  I would prefer something like "maintain mindfulness".

Rideforever,

This precept came about from the Buddha's understanding of karma, of which intent figures prominently.

If our intention is to harm other living creatures, simply for our own pleasure or benefit, then our lives are on a certain track. We have a certain karma.

If we constantly keep harming other living creatures, but we are ignorant of that fact, and if only we knew better then we would alter our behavior, then our life is set on another track. A different karma.

The Buddha teaches harmlessness, the highest track, which means not only harmlessness in our physical actions, but in speech and thought, too.

By following the precepts, we take care of harmlessness of our physical actions. The meditation taught by the Buddha is designed to take care of harmlessness on the subtler and subtlest levels: speech and thought. Gradually, we leave one track and get on a different, higher one; we change our karma.

For an everyday practitioner, it is important to understand these are trainings, so as to avoid disappointment and feelings of defeat and hopelessness. Just like one starts out training for a marathon by jogging a mile, then gradually increase this according to our ability, two miles, then three miles. We are not perfect just because we take the triple gem and the five precepts, just like we can't necessarily complete a marathon in record time just by registering for the event. We accept whatever shortcomings we have and try again and again over time. Training with self discipline and understanding.

The Buddha taught we should try not to use the precepts as an excuse to avoid this training. Instead, we should try to follow the precepts to the best of our ability. But the practical aspect of training the mind is of utmost importance.

A story from the time of the Buddha illustrates the point:
A new monk got his meditation instructions from the Buddha and went out into the forest to find a tree to meditate under. The first tree he found suitable had lots of ants crawling around. He thought, 'if I sit here, I will kill so many ants!' So he searched for another tree. Next tree had some other insects, and so on. The whole day was spent looking for the perfect shady meditation spot.
In the evening when the Buddha asked him how his meditation had been that day, he answered he hadn't done any meditation, he was too busy taking care of this precept.
 
Similarly, one can go through life trying to save the world while neglecting ones own practice.

Help others by helping oneself first.

[Matty G]

I take the meaning of 'refraining from killing' as acknowledging what is necessary in the cycle of life, but to also acknowledge the suffering created by so much unnecessary killing in the world. If you had nothing to eat but grass, you would reach a point were killing a cow might be necessary for sustenance. An example may be the mass production of meat, which many view as an unnecessary industry (up to you to decide), and the mistreatment of living, and feeling beings who are born and raised in poor conditions to be killed; some people opt to not endorse the meat industry, and do not eat meat out of compassion.

When you reach the point were you must kill this cow, how would you feel? Would you feel that since you are better than the cow and so killing is justified when the target is inferior? Or are you really equal to a cow who is feeling and living just like you? Or even deeper, maybe we are better than a cow in a lot of ways- or maybe we as humans are inferior even to a cow as he seems so content in a simple life, in a field eating grass and basking in the sun.

I had a biology teacher who explained his stance on the meat industry and how although he expressed feeling compassion for the suffering of these animals, he felt that by consuming them it was giving value to their suffering and their life. In nature it is true that many things die every day from many seemingly insignificant events.

I say reevaluate your own values and make a conscious choice about what you are actually participating in. Many seem to feel better not thinking about where there food comes from so that they don't have to feel anything about it, they can just eat and be full. I think you are right in the essence of the teachings being of mindfulness.

[dobe]

like the conservation of matter and energy... life cannot be destroyed. 

The "killing" has to do with intention.  If you're "killing" an animal for food so you can survive, thats not a bad intention.   If you going around killing for fun, thats a bad intention because your robbing other life forms of the opportunity to live on this planet(although still you haven't "killed" the dear, just the physicality, as life cannot be killed).

All enlightened beings seem to laugh at the idea of death

[kidnovice]

Hello

I don't understand why this is a precept.  (It is taken from Thailand's Northern Insight Meditation Centre)

In my stomach right now is a war between my immune system and hundreds of thousands of small organisms ... it is a slaughter, every second I kill many many creatures.  This is the nature of my body.

Also, what is the difference between a granite rock and a bacteria ?  Is there any ?  Can a bacteria feel existence and a rock not ?  Should I define one thing as being valuable and the other not (living / non-living) ?

So I don't understand why this is a precept.  I would prefer something like "maintain mindfulness".

?

RF

Perhaps this precept exists precisely because mindfulness is not enough to one take to final liberation. I obviously cannot speak to that, but I certainly don't think that mere awareness is enough to produce all the fruits of the contemplative life that a meditation practice offers.

Aside from mere awareness, there are other aspects of the mind that you will probably find it beneficial to cultivate: equanimity, kindness, compassion, and altruistic joy.  A deepened awareness will allow you to cultivate those qualities, and for some people, such qualities may come forth on their own, but they are important.

I find that keeping the precept against killing other beings is an opportunity to develop those qualities.  That's it.  At least that's how it is for me. I have found great benefit in striving to practice non-harming in my daily life. The more I practice kindness with my physical actions, the more I naturally practice kind mental actions. Its good stuff. The buddha wasn't crazy.

With that said, here are some qualities that don't help you on the path: self-judgment, self-righteousness, guilt, blame, etc. The danger of the western mind is that we are deeply inculcated with ideas of morality-- right and wrong, final judgment, praise and blame, and all that. We naturally project that moralistic world view onto the precepts. But that distorts everything.

The Buddha wasn't telling you to not harm others because it will make you a better person, or because you will be more "praiseworthy" in the eyes of god. Nope, its just enlightened self-interest. You're just doing whats best for you. And as it turns out, you may find that what is best for you is the kind of happiness that comes from mental qualities deeply associated with the wish that all beings be free from harm.

With metta,
KN