Author Topic: Trying to persuade others of my convictions  (Read 4210 times)

idud

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Trying to persuade others of my convictions
« on: July 24, 2010, 09:47:46 AM »
Hi,
I have discovered an anxiety of persuade others of my convictions.
I have noticed that I have done this several times, not only in spiritual questions or ways of thinking, but in a lot of questions. That's is an "I" or "me" I want to disolve.
I read in a blog that all religions talk about supernatural aspirations, and I think: "I can not allow that commentary, all the people who read it thinks It 's true and They will be blind in a spiritual way." I have to answer him.
Later on my meditation practice Ive noticed I am waiting for his response and thinking the way to answer him again.
I want to stop to do it, I havent this needing to persuade anybody, I don't want that need.
Any kind of help? I appreciate so much your comments.

mik1e

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Re: Trying to persuade others of my convictions
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2010, 11:41:43 AM »
idud,

It is very good that you have enough power to ask such questions, but you need many times more inner strength to implement the answers you get.

Inner dialog (part of which is constant inner arguing with other persons) involves activity of almost all centers, but the main ones are: vishuddha (throat center), svadhisthana (sexual center) and manipura (navel center).

One of the main functions of vishuddha is communication. It likes to examine everything you see or hear and chat about it -- either with yourself or with others.

One of the main functions of svadhisthana is merging with other beings (like single-cell organisms do) and assessing all events and objects as "pleasant-unpleasant" or "useful-dangerous". This center forces you to look for joy constantly.

One of the main functions of manipura is opposition to something or somebody using force. E.g., it becomes active, if you need to fight or move something heavy.

So, inner arguing involves activity of all these three centers: communication (vishuddha) + opposition (manipura) + joy (e.g., because manipura and vishuddha are involved in their "native" activity, plus some joy of imagining your victory over the opponent).

To get rid of this single problem, you have to clean up all three centers (and, possibly others, too). That is, you have to accept that communication and verbal understanding has no value (cleaning vishuddha), that losing or winning has no difference (cleaning manipura) and pleasant and unpleasant states/events/sensations are the same -- just states/events/sensations (cleaning svadhisthana).

In other words: you need inner silence, inner balance and "joy non-distinguishing".

It does not matter what you will do to get rid of your problem -- de facto you will move to these states. So why don't move to them consciously?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 11:48:29 AM by mik1e »

idud

  • Member
Re: Trying to persuade others of my convictions
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2010, 01:07:56 PM »
Hi mik1e,
thanks for yout response.
I didn't know anything about this words :
Quote
vishuddha (throat center), svadhisthana (sexual center) and manipura (navel center).
. I will research more deeply. That words divides the problem in little problems: "divide and conquer". Great.

Then my question is:( if you don't mind to ask you something more :D):
And What if somebody wants to jump from a window? I feel in that manner, I feel that person is going to fall off a cliff.

Then, I have inner silence, ok. Balance, I can deal with him and his mind to try to avoid this jump. What where finish my responsibility in that case? When do i have to stop? or may be, I shouldn't have started it.

Afortunately I didnt have to deal with this kind of situation. :). I am trying to view your knowledge but I still a little confused(or a lot :D)

mik1e

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Re: Trying to persuade others of my convictions
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2010, 02:44:19 PM »
Well, if you have such self-destructive thoughts, it is better not to follow them. Just let them go out of your mind and dissolve in the space.

When your inner silence become strong enough, such thoughts will be unable to arrive in your mind or approach you. You will observe them just as some energy impulses walking in the space, but you will not interact with them.

If you know nothing about chakras (energy centers), you need not to read too much about them. Just keep totally relaxed (allow no tension) all muscles and tissues in the areas of throat, stomach and lower abdomen. This will do, too (at least as the first step).


idud

  • Member
Re: Trying to persuade others of my convictions
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2010, 03:10:51 PM »
Hi mik1e,
I knew my bad english was going to misunderstood what I want to say :D
I wanted to say how to persuade someone not to do something we think is bad for him or for the rest of the people. May be that is the question.
We create anxiety to persuade them to do nothing what we thing is bad or we think they are misunderstood.
Like if we hear someone telling that 2 + 2 = 5.
Why should we leave them with their views?
I hope to express myself better.
Thanks a lot!

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
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Re: Trying to persuade others of my convictions
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2010, 04:01:03 PM »
Hi mik1e,
I knew my bad english was going to misunderstood what I want to say :D
I wanted to say how to persuade someone not to do something we think is bad for him or for the rest of the people. May be that is the question .........

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world" - Ghandi

"Until you have cleaned out your own s**t you aren't much use to the world" - Me

idud,

If you are having trouble convincing someone of something it may be because i) You do not have the words of conviction .... or  ii) They do not have THE EARS TO HEAR.

"Cast not thy pearls amongst swine" - Christ

Buddhism is not really a religion and certainly not one of evangelism. It is first and foremost a practical philosophy and toolkit to "clean out your own house" and "be the change you wish to see in the world".

Concentrate on your own inner calm, serenity, compassion and insight. Build these inside of you - and then you will communicate more effectively with those around you ... just don't waste your time trying to provide wisdom to people who wish to remain ignorant.

You'll only annoy them and yourself.

Warmly,

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

mik1e

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Re: Trying to persuade others of my convictions
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2010, 04:21:34 PM »
Frankly speaking, I have no answer for this question.

The best answer -- look into Infinity and do what you see. But you have to be really spiritually strong to follow this advise. Without seeing you cannot say what is better for the person: to jump from the window and to start new life in new circumstances, or not to jump and to get some important experience in this life. Or you can see that he has to jump, because he will not die, but this event will teach him something important lesson. It is impossible to guess what is better and what is not, and you have absolutely no warranties that what you see is correct. That's why you have to be very strong spiritually to act according to your vision.

For those who are unable to follow this principle, I usually advise to follow well-known social patterns: "Do [not do] what you [do not] want to be done for yourself", protect yourself and others against danger and aggression, and so on.

In the latter case you may act in wrong way, and you have to keep this in mind, but in average this will cause less harm than just being passive observer.

So, talking about the guy who has suicidal thoughts, you may show him to the doctor, give him the medicines which help him to forget about these thoughts, put him in the place where he will be unable to harm himself, and so on.

Maybe the best way is to involve the person in some constant activity (project), so that he became stronger and had no time for thoughts about himself.

Anyway, from my point of view, the best way to convince somebody is to share with him your inner calmnes and balance, and let him himself to see the truths which you follow.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 05:04:12 PM by mik1e »

Crystal Palace

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  • "Move on Bhikkus, Move On" - Buddha
    • Thai Forest Tradition
Re: Trying to persuade others of my convictions
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2010, 05:32:25 PM »

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world" - Ghandi


I think you meant Gandhi.



"Until you have cleaned out your own s**t you aren't much use to the world" - Me


hahahaahahhahahaaha :D :D :D
I'll tell you Im busy grappling with mine  ;)

In the Dhamma,
Trying to clean out the goo,
Crystal P
"Abstain from unwholesome actions,
Perform wholesome actions,
Purify your mind"

Buddha

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Trying to persuade others of my convictions
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2010, 11:34:10 PM »

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world" - Ghandi


I think you meant Gandhi.


You think right.
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

mik1e

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Re: Trying to persuade others of my convictions
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2010, 10:05:25 AM »
idud,

It seems that you have got too complex answers (including mine) for simple enough question :)

There are very few situations where you really need to intervene into the deeds of another person. I usually ask  the next questions: Does this situation constitute a menace for somebody's life? For somebody's health? For somebody's future (e.g., life-changing choices like choosing profession, taking part in criminal activity, marriage, etc.)?

If the answer for all these questions is "No" -- there is no real reason for intervention. In such cases (i.e. in 95-99% of situations) it is better to let the person to learn on his own experience or wait while he himself asks you for advise. In any case it makes no sense to talk with the person if he does not intend to listen to you.

So, if nobody wants to listen to you (and, as I said, this is 95-99% of situations like "2+2 = 5") -- just keep silence (external and internal :)), and focus on your practice.This will be the best choice for everybody.

idud

  • Member
Re: Trying to persuade others of my convictions
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2010, 11:59:54 AM »
Thanks to all, wise words, I have to read a lot of times to clarify my concepts and to absorb that teachings.
Quote
That is, you have to accept that communication and verbal understanding has no value (cleaning vishuddha), that losing or winning has no difference (cleaning manipura) and pleasant and unpleasant states/events/sensations are the same -- just states/events/sensations (cleaning svadhisthana).
Do you meant that I have to view or watch this three points more deeply on my vipassana practice, right?
I am trying to get rid of desire and aversion in five aggregates but what you say about communication and verbal understanding I hadn't undestood. What is meaning is to "sense" the action, creativity about situation.

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Trying to persuade others of my convictions
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2010, 02:37:17 PM »
I am trying to get rid of desire and aversion in five aggregates .....

This is desire or aversion. Seeing this is vital.
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

mik1e

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Re: Trying to persuade others of my convictions
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2010, 11:37:26 PM »
Quote
That is, you have to accept that communication and verbal understanding has no value (cleaning vishuddha), that losing or winning has no difference (cleaning manipura) and pleasant and unpleasant states/events/sensations are the same -- just states/events/sensations (cleaning svadhisthana).
Do you meant that I have to view or watch this three points more deeply on my vipassana practice, right?

Unfortunately, I don't know what you are doing during your practice, so I cannot tell you whether you deeds are right or not. But, looking on your questions, I assume that you have no experience of working with states themselves (without using rational or verbal thinking), and in this case any use of my advises will be wrong :(

Let us look at communication/verbalisation problems related to Vishuddha (throat center). 

"No-value" state means that nothing changes in you when you have the possibility to communicate with other people and when you have no possibility to communicate with anybody. Say, you can assume two situations: a) you are alone on the island, and you have spent on this island 2 (5, 10) years. Will you miss the possibility to communicate with other people? b) You are put in the solitary cell, and you know that nobody will communicate with you for the rest of your life. What will you feel in this case?

The main idea of such practices -- to check your reaction for appearance or disappearance of some possibility (object, situation). The main goal of the training -- to achieve the state when appearance/disappearance of the possibility does not change your inner state. If you have achieved this goal, you become free with respect to this possibility, situation or object. This inner freedom is the main goal.

In your case, you will become free, if at the moment when your opponent appears in your sight, you feel nothing except friendly attitude to him. No desire to prove anything. No expectation of his questions. Nothing -- as if you see this person for the first time in your life.

idud

  • Member
Re: Trying to persuade others of my convictions
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2010, 12:59:57 PM »
Hi mik1e,
your answers still surprise me, all i know is I know nothing :)
Is there a book or reading where I can read this trainings? Nowadays I am making my own questions to try to find this, a point to deal with. To find question which makes my thoughts creat fear. But are limited no so deeply like this.
I have certain experience "manufacturing" this questions and watch them. I have had two panic attack totally controlled only observing them, my body sensations, thoughts. That is what creates my knowledge of what meditation is. the possibility of deal with all of these sensations without fear.
Ok, thanks again, I will observe my reactions on my practice about this great questions..

idud

  • Member
Re: Trying to persuade others of my convictions
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2010, 01:20:01 PM »
I forgot it.

This is my practice:
1.- I sit down on my cushion
2.- Relax my body and mind
3.- I try to concentrate on my breathe in the nostrls
4.- When only thoughts are on my mind: no sounds, no body pain, etc. I observe them. Usually, nothing happens, all are no desire-no aversion thoughts. I return to my breathe.

Some weeks ago, I try to induce fear or hate in my practice thinking in bad situations. That's why viewing your questions claims my attention. You are trying to provoke some body sensations or thoughts to deal with.

However, I think I don't have to induce anything, I should keep watching what arises.

Then, Do I have to ask me that questions to deal with it watching them or on the contrary I only have to watch what arises?

Thanks again for your invaluable time,

mik1e

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Re: Trying to persuade others of my convictions
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2010, 06:58:08 AM »
Hi idud,

I don't know where you can read about this or other practices I use except in my posts :) Maybe somebody else knows. I just illustrated you a principle of equal attitude to oppositions. The main idea: you find an object, state, process or situation you are attached to, and then look at the totally opposite object, state, ... Then you eliminate in your mind and energy body all structures which force you to react differently to these oppositions. Finally you have to come to the state at which you feel no changes in your mind and body when you shift your gaze  from one opposition to another. What is important is the change (or absence of change) in your state at the moment of swapping the oppositions, because after some time of looking at this or that situation you will adapt to it.

You can use the air around you for the reference: your reaction to the processes you observe should be exactly the same as that of the air. Air "sees" the light and "hears" the sounds which propagate through it, but what is it's reaction for these stimuli? Make your perception as full and clear, and your reactions as empty as those of air -- and this practice may be considered finished.

Exercises you described are just preparation for meditation (i.e. mind and body calming). Please keep in mind that to work with consciousness, you have to observe (feel, see) your whole body at once. So, if you start from focusing attention in the nostrils, then you have somehow to expand it to the whole body (maybe, at the stage 4). 

You need not to induce emotions (fear, love, happiness) intentionally. This is fabrication by definition. But you can ask the questions: "What scares me?", "What makes me happy or unhappy?", "Am I attached to anything?" and so on. Answers will come immediately, but you need to be well prepared (i.e. to have very stable and calm mind and ability to perceive and understand the slightest changes in the body sensations) to understand these answers and use them properly.

Now you are at the very beginning of this long, long way. Good luck!

deebat

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Re: Trying to persuade others of my convictions
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2010, 02:52:00 PM »
You can use the air around you for the reference: your reaction to the processes you observe should be exactly the same as that of the air. Air "sees" the light and "hears" the sounds which propagate through it, but what is it's reaction for these stimuli? Make your perception as full and clear, and your reactions as empty as those of air -- and this practice may be considered finished.

Excellent example, mik1e. I will consider this throughout my day today.

With metta,
Dan

idud

  • Member
Re: Trying to persuade others of my convictions
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2010, 04:14:20 PM »
I'll keep all your teachings in mind.
A lot of thanks!

mik1e

  • Guest
Re: Trying to persuade others of my convictions
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2010, 09:37:29 PM »
DON'T keep in mind -- PRACTICE, please! :):)