Author Topic: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)  (Read 10185 times)

Morning Dew

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Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« on: May 28, 2010, 10:37:59 AM »
Hallo friends,

I was searching around the net to join another meditation forum which is not so much lost into scriptures, right focus, right this and that , who's view is right and who's is wrong, but to no avail. Most of them are into visualistaion of chakra lights and so on so and so forth  :)  The last (could be the best) solution for me (and me alike) is to abandon forums all together and be alone with my self  :)

So I felt to try and ask Admin Matthew and the rest wheather it would be acceptable to open one more board for the non-buddhist like me which have no intention what so ever to get involved into Sutta scriptures and goals toward Enlightment and stories alike.

Such board I feel could teach us alot  :) and would give space for both buddhists and non-buddhist interested in vipassana  :)

Such board is in no way creating separation but rather a window which one can open to get fresh air if the forum's atmosphere gets too smokey  ;D

I hope you can understand and respect my point of view here  :)  Vipasanna is becoming more and more popular among non-religious (and religious) people, but some non-religious might get "pushed" away from this forum by feeling the religious Buddhist environment (and to be honest disputes are happening very often around here).

So what say you  :D  we create such a space to give a friendly hand to those who feel not to get involved into Dhamma but rather to simple know them selves via practising Shamatha-Vipasanna here with us. Better here than to get side tracked by some color visualisation meditation forums  :)

What say you?

 :)

kidnovice

  • Member
    • Theravada: with nuts and bolts from Goenka-ji, and fine tuning from Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2010, 05:38:41 PM »
I gotta say that I don't think people's reference to sutta's is their problem. If you really notice what's going in heated disagreements, the cause if often a failure to adhere to skillful rules of discourse: acknowledging points on which you agree, abstaining from criticism of people (its certainly fruitful to raise criticisms against techniques, instructions, and conduct), being open to opposing viewpoints and coming to the forum with the intent to listen as well as be heard. 

Personally, I think most forums--if they are engaging in meaningful dialogue-- will also probably have some difficulties. I don't know whether you could feasibly have a board on this site, or any site called "Vipassana," with a rule against citing suttas. After all, the term Vipassana come from a pali word, and is deeply entrenched in Buddhism. Would the board have a warning ("Please no sutta-references here"?!?!) Personally, I think it would be a fun experiment-- Discuss meditation practice using only one's personal experience and judgment to determine what is skillful. We would probably find ourselves discussing the suttas with explicitly doing so. So, I'm up for the experiment, even if it might fail!

But you might have an easier time finding forums if you use the term, "mindfulness."  In the west, that has become the key term when someone wants to secularize "Vipassana."  Of course, that approach has its own drawbacks. Anyway, here is a forum I found in less than a two minutes: mindfulnessforum.com. I am sure there are many more.

metta,
kn
May we cultivate the serenity to accept the things we cannot change; the compassion to change the things we can; and the wisdom to know the difference.

Morning Dew

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Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2010, 08:34:12 PM »
Thanks for replying kidnovice  :)

I have checked the forum and even they have a board called Mindfulness and Buddhism so if you feel like it you can get inthere and reffer to suttas  :)

Why can't we be open to this or are we clinging too much to being a "right buddhist forum" ? Is Vipassana about being a Buddhist? BTW, did Buddha ever call him slef a Buddhist? Did Buddha ever follow what others told him to do?

Quote
Personally, I think it would be a fun experiment-- Discuss meditation practice using only one's personal experience and judgment to determine what is skillful. We would probably find ourselves discussing the suttas with explicitly doing so.

How can I discuss suttas if I never ever read any of them and do not intend to do so  :)  ?  Those finding them selves discussing suttas would be in the wrong board don't yo think? And that was exactly my point of view.
I would like a board where folk does not contaminate the atmosphere with wheather one can reach enlightment via Shamatha-Vipassna or Jhana or what not ... a board that leaves enlightment in peace and focuses on knowing the one we call One Self which is the cause of all suffering  :)
We don't even know if Buddha wrote those Suttas  :) 

Quote
So, I'm up for the experiment, even if it might fail!

It can fail only if people deliberetly go against it, but I believe that all Buddhists of this forum will first contemplate before refering to suttas in a board called NON-Religous. Also as Buddhists you will be happy to get more people to Know Them Selves via Vipassana rather then go around loosing their heads in search for their saviour. It is not about getting in more people to call them selves Buddhists but to get more people to wake up and see the suffering coming from their own ego mind, is it not?

Sitting alone with one self with or without suttas is still sitting alone with one self, without fabricating anything, but taking thoughts as they are, emotions as they are and remain in relaxing the body without self hypnotising  :)
Not everything comes from suttas. I would rather refer to Krishnamurti, at least we know that he him self said all that is written, and his english is much more understandable than Pali where things can be lost in transaltion and people of olden days did speak in a more diferent language as we do today, don't you think?  :)

What say you?  :)  Am I kicking into a hornet nest or is this going to see the light  :)


kidnovice

  • Member
    • Theravada: with nuts and bolts from Goenka-ji, and fine tuning from Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2010, 12:23:41 AM »
I'm all for it, Morning Dew. When I said:

Quote
We would probably find ourselves discussing the suttas with explicitly doing so

My point was just that many of the suttas can be understood as the instructions/experiences of an extremely accomplished "meditator" (i.e., the Buddha). And given the universality of the human condition--and assuming that our practice is also motivated by an intention to free ourselves and all others from suffering--we're probably going to rehash some of the suttas without even intending to do so.  I imagine the following sort of conversation:

JD: I've been meditating on my breath for awhile, and its awesome. I've decided this is all I ever need to do when I meditate. I don't need to be aware of anything else. I've found the way.

SG: That's great. Keep going with it, but maybe you should direct your awareness to other areas of your experience that interact with the breath. It might help you penetrate into the nature of suffering more quickly.

JD: What do you mean? The breath is all I need.

SG: Maybe, but since your experience is so broad, you might want to include other aspects to make sure your insight is truly transformative.  For example, you should probably make sure you cultivate a penetrating awareness into the nature of your body, the feeling of your experience, your mental states, your thoughts, and other stuff like that.

JD: Dude, you're totally talking about the Satipatthana Sutta. That's cheating.

SG: I don't know what you're talking about.


 ;D

With metta,
KN
May we cultivate the serenity to accept the things we cannot change; the compassion to change the things we can; and the wisdom to know the difference.

Morning Dew

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Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2010, 08:33:37 AM »
Hi convivium  :) 
nice of you to drop in a few links but what for? I tried to read them but am not good in understanding that type of writing "O Bhikkus, O Monks , O ... "  :)

In your words, what was your point, if you don't mind, please  :)

Quote
JD: Dude, you're totally talking about the Satipatthana Sutta. That's cheating.

SG: I don't know what you're talking about.

LOL  ;D  me like   ;D

Matthew

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Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2010, 10:59:15 AM »
Morning Dew,

From "Who we are":

Welcome to vipassanaforum.net

This is a small but growing online community or "Sangha" of Buddhist inspired Shamatha-Vipassana meditators. Some of us would call ourselves Buddhists, some wouldn't. It is unimportant to the practice of meditation.

The common thread that ties us is that we practice forms of calming and insight/awareness or "Shamtha-Vipassana" meditation. This form of meditation was first recorded as being practiced by an Indian Prince called Gautama Shakyamuni. He awoke to the true nature of things and thereafter came to be known as "Buddha" which means "one who is awake". Buddhism is the widespread and often very differently interpreted teachings of Buddha as they have come down to us today.

~oOo~

We have one rule as a community: We treat each other with respect and compassion and we think before we open our mouths/type our words.

Anyone incapable of maintaining these standards would probably not be helping themselves or us. If they did not moderate their behaviour they would be asked to leave. This has never happened however - yet if it arises and the behaviour continues eventually the person would be banned.

Discussion of anything is acceptable, however, game playing with words is an obstacle and hindrance on the path of meditation and divisive of community.

In particular "mindless speculation of imponderables" and purely intellectual debates are not what this place is about - this place is a meditation practice oriented community of active meditators - not an intellectual playground for the amusement of people with a purely intellectual approach to the subject. The approach is practical, personal and experiential.

My short answer is that this entire forum is NOT specifically Buddhist. It is designed for Buddhist and non-Buddhist alike. The meditations we are practicing do, however, largely come from the Buddhist tradition and there will always be some discussion that reverts to scripture.

There was a time when we considered having a separate board for Goenka practitioners. The consensus was a big "no" to that one.

I'm sorry that sometimes discussions go off track and people lose their "cool", their enlightenment (including myself), however, if you can bear with it I do strongly feel there is more benefit to keeping everything under one roof than segregating boards.

The idea of this community was to find commonalities rather than differences, to enhance each others understanding and practice through sharing - if we slice the cake too thin we end up losing more than we gain in my opinion.

I'm not saying "no" because - even though I am the admin - it is up to the community to decide and not me. That's my contribution to the debate though - I can understand what you are looking for - this place is meant to provide it already. If we are failing then I do not think it is down to structure of the boards but the style of individuals, and the answer is therefore to be found elsewhere.

Warmly, in the Dhamma,

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2010, 11:02:56 AM »
....

JD: Dude, you're totally talking about the Satipatthana Sutta. That's cheating.

SG: I don't know what you're talking about.


 ;D

With metta,
KN

This is the best laugh I had all week :D
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

mik1e

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Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2010, 05:34:52 PM »
Morning Dew,

If you have questions -- ask them. I can explain everything without referring to Suttas (since I never read them :)), but there is no way to talk about Vipassana and self-development without mentioning such things as energy centers (Chakras) and subtle fields (or subtle bodies). Talking only about body sensations is very misleading.

convivium

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Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2010, 03:06:51 AM »

Quote
nice of you to drop in a few links but what for? I tried to read them but am not good in understanding that type of writing "O Bhikkus, O Monks , O ... " 
papanca papanca papanca.
respect the suttas.

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2010, 08:49:15 AM »
Why should I respect or desrespect the suttas my friend, I simply do not understnad that kind of olden days talk, that is all, it is not clear and be translated like this or that or ... mnay things get lost in translation.

A few month ago I started reading Te-Tao Ching by Lao Tzu and couldn't understand much of it.
Instead I prefer the unknown teachings called Hua Hu Ching translated by B. Walker, and very easy to read and understand.

The same I can say for the suttas, very dificult to understand to read for westerners like my self. For me Krishnamurti is much more clear and straight forward, very easy to understand.

My dear convivium  :)  you are fast at judging me as fast as avoiding to answer my question adn explain those links offered in your post above  :) so if you don't mind and still know why you posted them please care to explain. You might enlighten even me  ;D  you never know  ;)

Thanks

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2010, 09:32:57 AM »
Why should I respect or desrespect the suttas my friend, I simply do not understnad that kind of olden days talk, that is all, it is not clear and be translated like this or that or ... mnay things get lost in translation.

A few month ago I started reading Te-Tao Ching by Lao Tzu and couldn't understand much of it.
Instead I prefer the unknown teachings called Hua Hu Ching translated by B. Walker, and very easy to read and understand.

The same I can say for the suttas, very dificult to understand to read for westerners like my self. For me Krishnamurti is much more clear and straight forward, very easy to understand.
...

To each their own. Find that which truly helps you. Reading the Sutta's is hard and translations often disagree. There is a certain amount of familiarity with the style and repetition that makes it easier once you get used to this - the repetition is due to the fact that these texts were transmitted orally for a couple of centuries ... probably a good few slips of the tongue got in there !

There has also been a lot of talk about Buddhism and Buddhist practice and not that many Buddhas produced as an end result so I would say it's fair to surmise something somewhere isn't right.

That's why I read Sutta's ... to try and fathom the real intent behind the Buddha's words ... certainly not to look clever or bash people with my superior knowledge (which doesn't exist).

That's why I too read Krishnamurti ... Alan Watts ....

But mostly having read it dear Morning Dew .. I come back to - I think - a similar place to you .... time to sit and let things fall away: KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID .... less talk more walk ... If people were getting enlightened in a week under the Buddha then we are surely making a meal of it.

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

convivium

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Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2010, 10:00:28 AM »
papanca is mental proliferation. when we discern what is mental proliferation, and what is real at the level of sense contact then insight can arise. discursive debates and smokeyness is mental proliferation--dealing with abstractions, unknowables or unverified superstitions. clinging to rules, dogmas or beliefs is proliferation. the suttas teach the way out of proliferation, and beyond.

Quote
Three passages in the discourses — DN 21, MN 18, and Sn 4.11 — map the causal processes that give rise to papañca and lead from papañca to conflict. Because the Buddhist analysis of causality is generally non-linear, with plenty of room for feedback loops, the maps vary in some of their details. In DN 21, the map reads like this:

 the perceptions & categories of papañca > thinking > desire > dear-&-not-dear > envy & stinginess > rivalry & hostility
In Sn 4.11, the map is less linear and can be diagrammed like this:

perception > the categories of papañca

perception > name & form > contact > appealing & unappealing > desire > dear-&-not-dear > stinginess/divisiveness/quarrels/disputes

In MN 18, the map is this:

 contact > feeling > perception > thinking > the perceptions & categories of papañca
In this last case, however, the bare outline misses some of the important implications of the way this process is phrased. In the full passage, the analysis starts out in an impersonal tone:

 Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises [similarly with the rest of the six senses]. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling.
Starting with feeling, the notion of an "agent" — in this case, the feeler — acting on "objects," is introduced:

 What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one "papañcizes."
Through the process of papañca, the agent then becomes a victim of his/her own patterns of thinking:

 Based on what a person papañcizes, the perceptions & categories of papañca assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye [as with the remaining senses].
What are these perceptions & categories that assail the person who papañcizes? Sn 4.14 states that the root of the categories of papañca is the perception, "I am the thinker." From this self-reflexive thought — in which one conceives a "self," a thing corresponding to the concept of "I" — a number of categories can be derived: being/not-being, me/not-me, mine/not-mine, doer/done-to, signifier/signified. Once one's self becomes a thing under the rubric of these categories, it's impossible not to be assailed by the perceptions & categories derived from these basic distinctions. When there's the sense of identification with something that experiences, then based on the feelings arising from sensory contact, some feelings will seem appealing — worth getting for the self — and others will seem unappealing — worth pushing away. From this there grows desire, which comes into conflict with the desires of others who are also engaging in papañca. This is how inner objectifications breed external contention.

How can this process be ended? Through a shift in perception, caused by the way one attends to feelings, using the categories of appropriate attention [see MN 2]. As the Buddha states in DN 21, rather than viewing a feeling as an appealing or unappealing thing, one should look at it as part of a causal process: when a particular feeling is pursued, do skillful or unskillful qualities increase in the mind? If skillful qualities increase, the feeling may be pursued. If unskillful qualities increase, it shouldn't. When comparing feelings that lead to skillful qualities, notice which are more refined: those accompanied with thinking (directed thought) and evaluation, or those free of thinking and evaluation, as in the higher stages of mental absorption, or jhana. When seeing this, there is a tendency to opt for the more refined feelings, and this cuts through the act of thinking that, according to MN 18, provides the basis for papañca.

In following this program, the notion of agent and victim is avoided, as is self-reflexive thinking in general. There is simply the analysis of cause-effect processes. One is still making use of dualities — distinguishing between unskillful and skillful (and affliction/lack of affliction, the results of unskillful and skillful qualities) — but the distinction is between processes, not things. Thus one's analysis avoids the type of thinking that, according to DN 21, depends on the perceptions and categories of papañca, and in this way the vicious cycle by which thinking and papañca keep feeding each other is cut.

Ultimately, by following this program to greater and greater levels of refinement through the higher levels of mental absorption, one finds less and less to relish and enjoy in the six senses and the mental processes based on them. With this sense of disenchantment, the processes of feeling and thought are stilled, and there is a breakthrough to the cessation of the six sense spheres. When these spheres cease, is there anything else left? Ven. Sariputta, in AN 4.174, warns us not to ask, for to ask if there is, isn't, both-is-and-isn't, neither-is-nor-isn't anything left in that dimension is to papañcize what is free from papañca. However, this dimension is not a total annihilation of experience. It's a type of experience that DN 11 calls consciousness without feature, luminous all around, where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing, where long/short, coarse/fine, fair/foul, name/form are all brought to an end. This is the fruit of the path of arahantship — a path that makes use of dualities but leads to a fruit beyond them.

It may come as cold comfort to realize that conflict can be totally overcome only with the realization of arahantship, but it's important to note that by following the path recommended in DN 21 — learning to avoid references to any notion of "self" and learning to view feelings not as things but as parts of a causal process affecting the qualities in the mind — the basis for papañca is gradually undercut, and there are fewer and fewer occasions for conflict. In following this path, one reaps its increasing benefits all along the way.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.018.than.html
« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 10:17:25 AM by Convivium »

convivium

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Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2010, 10:21:18 AM »
Quote
My dear convivium    you are fast at judging me as fast as avoiding to answer my question adn explain those links offered in your post above   so if you don't mind and still know why you posted them please care to explain. You might enlighten even me    you never know 
just wanted to use the papanca monkey... :-X 

convivium

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Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2010, 07:09:56 AM »
the suttas are a magical adventure of discovery.

this is a good place to start: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 07:23:37 AM by Convivium »

Morning Dew

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Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2010, 08:12:50 AM »
Quote
There has also been a lot of talk about Buddhism and Buddhist practice and not that many Buddhas produced as an end result so I would say it's fair to surmise something somewhere isn't right.

My point exactly  :)  which naturally brings us to what you wrote;

Quote
But mostly having read it dear Morning Dew .. I come back to - I think - a similar place to you .... time to sit and let things fall away: KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID .... less talk more walk ... If people were getting enlightened in a week under the Buddha then we are surely making a meal of it.

Quote
My short answer is that this entire forum is NOT specifically Buddhist. It is designed for Buddhist and non-Buddhist alike.

I know but most of the meditation boards are named Dhamma and that very much "pushes away" folk that might enter to learn insight meditation but not necesserely learn Dhamma or enter the Buddhist refuge.
How come you don't see this as an oportunity to create an easy to enter door for those lost out there but hurt by religion, door which doesn't sound religious, not making them think twice to enter  :)

I don't think this extra board will create some special separation in an already totaly separated world  ;D

We could take this board with a more positive atitude the way kidnovice put it
Quote
Insert Quote
Quote from: kidnovice on Saturday 29 May 2010, 12:23 AM
....

JD: Dude, you're totally talking about the Satipatthana Sutta. That's cheating.

SG: I don't know what you're talking about.




But then again I might be totaly wrong and I might be just trying to create a place where I feel more comfortable.

convivium

  • Guest
Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2010, 09:19:12 AM »
why reject the rest of the eightfold path? the buddha taught a lot more than mindfulness and discernment practices. there is no religion once you have actually taken refuge in the triple gem, and there is no dhamma that not itself gnosis or teachings that take one towards gnosis. 
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 09:22:40 AM by Convivium »

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
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  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2010, 11:09:36 AM »
....I know but most of the meditation boards are named Dhamma and that very much "pushes away" folk that might enter to learn insight meditation but not necesserely learn Dhamma or enter the Buddhist refuge.

I can easily take "Dhamma" out of the names of the boards though really I don't think people are pushed away by that. If they are they probably haven't read past the headlines ...

How come you don't see this as an oportunity to create an easy to enter door for those lost out there but hurt by religion, door which doesn't sound religious, not making them think twice to enter  :)

I don't see it as an opportunity because once we start slicing the cake up there is no end to it:

We have to have a board where no Buddhist terms are used, one for Goenka people only, ... as soon as you start there is no end to division, and we are a smallish community, so slicing things up doesn't help - it splits that community.

I don't think this extra board will create some special separation in an already totaly separated world  ;D

Yes it will. It will break the boundary we have on this issue and lead to more and more requests.

We could take this board with a more positive atitude the way kidnovice put it
Quote
Quote from: kidnovice on Saturday 29 May 2010, 12:23 AM
....

JD: Dude, you're totally talking about the Satipatthana Sutta. That's cheating.

SG: I don't know what you're talking about.



I think Kidnovice was being humorous about the impossibility of this as a working proposal rather than positive.

But then again I might be totaly wrong and I might be just trying to create a place where I feel more comfortable.

I believe so. Instead it might be more beneficial to work on your equanimity: to be aware of that which annoys, triggers, upsets or frustrates you and face that, be it on the boards here or anywhere else in your life.

When I teach meditation at courses I don't use any Buddhist terminology, no Sanskrit, no Pali, no Sutta quotes. I teach in English to an English speaking audience.

If you want questions answered from direct experience and specifically without Buddhist terminology I would encourage you to state that at the start of any threads you want dealt with that way. I will certainly respect any such request and if anyone else doesn't I can just delete those posts for you.

Warmly,

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

mik1e

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Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2010, 08:35:42 PM »
Morning Dew have raised an interesting problem, but the discussion very quickly turned into empty chat.

The problem: How to present ancient techniques and observations in modern language and more or less modern terms?

He is right: very few guys have enough patience and mind to read and understand suttas. But, if one rectify, say, 100-page sutta and kill all repetitions and praisings, he will get 3-5 page set of quite practical descriptions of "what may be". This is much closer to modern pragmatic way of information presentation, but still is not a "cookbook", which we are used to.

From my point of view, it quite makes sense to have a thread or board where all problems are discussed based on practice and modern terms only, without any reference to Eightfold Path, Buddhism, Suttas, and all other 2500-year old stuff. Reality does not depend on teaching of even the coolest guy, and we today can describe and understand it not worse than ancient practitioners -- in our own words.

But  nobody here wants to talk about practice or reality -- only about how nice it would be to talk about practice :).
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 08:41:54 PM by mik1e »

kidnovice

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    • Theravada: with nuts and bolts from Goenka-ji, and fine tuning from Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2010, 10:30:31 PM »
Mik1e,

I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the problem:

Quote
The problem: How to present ancient techniques and observations in modern language and more or less modern terms?

But its a ridiculous exaggeration to claim that noone here wants to talk about practice or reality. I have read many posts here in which advice has been clearly steeped in practice, explicitly or otherwise. I have offered descriptions of my own experience on several occasions, TIB has given so much detailed advice, I don't know how you could miss the extent of practice informing his suggestions. And there are many others that I couldn't possibly list here. Plus, don't forget how many beginners come here to post detailed accounts of their experience, and then receive advice.

Yet, I do agree that when we feel compelled to talk about our practice and experiences, its extremely helpful to put things in "modern" language that we and others can simply understand. In this respect, the suttas can sometimes get in the way (or even become a shield to mask our confusion, or worse, defend our pride).

With that said, I actually think that it is needlessly divisive to create a board just for conversations that don't reference suttas. It seems more skillful to take a small steps toward reform, and see what kind of success you have. For example, like TIB suggested, you can start a thread with the caveat that you don't want to receive sutta-references in people's replies. See how that goes. :)

And even more valuably, as members of this community we can ALL try this approach: when someone makes a sutta-reference in a conversation, and seems to think that it somehow "speaks for itself" or is absolutely authoritative, try asking them to explain it and its relevance to the issue at hand. This will challenge each us to rely more on our own personal understandings/experience, and make fewer appeals to dogma. And if you don't really "get" the suttas, taking this approach will also help you gain a clearer understanding.

With metta,
KN   

May we cultivate the serenity to accept the things we cannot change; the compassion to change the things we can; and the wisdom to know the difference.

convivium

  • Guest
Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2010, 02:16:04 AM »
if we devote ourselves to the eightfold path, then all the suttas will become clear.

convivium

  • Guest
Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2010, 07:00:39 AM »
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html

but we have to expand our vocabulary...



Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2010, 08:17:25 AM »
Quote
If you want questions answered from direct experience and specifically without Buddhist terminology I would encourage you to state that at the start of any threads you want dealt with that way. I will certainly respect any such request and if anyone else doesn't I can just delete those posts for you.

OK,  ;D could you please delete all Convivium's posts in this thread  ;D 

just kidding  ;)

It all comes to being Alone with One Self anyway, with or without this new board. New board New thoughts, New ideas, good old mind games ...

Remain relaxed  :)

convivium

  • Guest
Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2010, 09:19:26 AM »
krishnamurti at best taught buddhism, but the living fountain of that doctrine remains in the suttas.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 09:31:47 AM by Convivium »

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Non-Religious Vipassana Board Please :-)
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2010, 11:24:55 AM »
very few guys have enough patience and mind to read and understand suttas.

Then they are doomed to failure on the path anyway as it takes a great deal more patience and time to understand your own mind than it does to understand the content of the most important Suttas.

The fact that people have been brainwashed into thinking their lives are too full for a little emptiness is a big part of the problem: people trapped in their thinking. "The mind-forged manacles of man", as Blake put it in the Songs of Innocence and Experience.

BuddhaDhamma offers a solution, a practical no-nonsense roadmap to change and escaping this trap. But that roadmap isn't a Satnav. You can't type in "enlightenment" and drive from A to B and arrive at your destination. The roadmap is a strange one that needs study because it deals with you dealing with the consequences of your own mind. You have to be your own Satnav.

Sure we can relate the Buddhist teachings in modern language and stripped of cultural accretions - as I mainly try to do.

It still won't get anyone anywhere unless they do some very hard work on changing themselves.

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

 

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