Poll

Should experiences like jhana, or paths and fruits, etc. be shared?

agree
13 (68.4%)
disagree
0 (0%)
only with teacher
3 (15.8%)
other (describe)
3 (15.8%)

Total Members Voted: 7

Author Topic: Sharing Experiences  (Read 14578 times)

Morning Dew

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Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #50 on: July 20, 2010, 10:01:49 PM »
I am starting to see that the best "time" to meditate is when the concentration is low or i feel agitated or worried, happy, overwhelmed etc...
This the best time to actualy see oneself performing all these conditioned tasks to keep one away from the silence. So true!
I can not stand silence fot long since silence might actualy kill me and i will do all whats in my conditioned  power to occupie the mind and keep it for myself!
I am afraid of the silence indeed!
If i am to kill my self i am to be compationate towards the occupied mind and the body and keep an always awake inner eye observing myself. Always awake but not paranoid! Awake In a calm manner and ready for all the moves myself might use to crush this silent light.

And for this i need not to keep my eyes closed or half opened or opened or crosslegged or standing or in seiza or walking or painting or what not but what is to be done is be awake of every move i am doing, just watching without a measure.

If you happen to feel weak put some meditative grease into your hair or bold skull ;) and ride the actual emotional rolercoaster looking your fear streight in the eyes!
This is the "time" when layers fall apart.

By saying " i cant sit longer then" know the I is in panic and will use all dirty moves to get out of the silence. So mind ur balls  ;D
do not torture ur self! All you do do it with full and awake compation towards ur self. At the end of the day it is you trying to kill yourself so keep it as friendly as possible  :)

no matter what remain relaxed

if you hit a brick wall cool sit shorter go for long walks and use them to practice mindful wachfulness.
It helps of course to sit for longer time but still the sitting practice is indeed only a tool. Off the cushion is the real stuff the real bleeding the real fight ;) fight with total compationate-pasionate awakeness.

 

Matthew

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Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2010, 12:29:28 PM »
I am starting to see that the best "time" to meditate is when the concentration is low or i feel agitated or worried, happy, overwhelmed etc...
This the best time to actualy see oneself performing all these conditioned tasks to keep one away from the silence. So true!
I can not stand silence fot long since silence might actualy kill me and i will do all whats in my conditioned  power to occupie the mind and keep it for myself!
I am afraid of the silence indeed!
If i am to kill my self i am to be compationate towards the occupied mind and the body and keep an always awake inner eye observing myself. Always awake but not paranoid! Awake In a calm manner and ready for all the moves myself might use to crush this silent light.

And for this i need not to keep my eyes closed or half opened or opened or crosslegged or standing or in seiza or walking or painting or what not but what is to be done is be awake of every move i am doing, just watching without a measure.

If you happen to feel weak put some meditative grease into your hair or bold skull ;) and ride the actual emotional rolercoaster looking your fear streight in the eyes!
This is the "time" when layers fall apart.

By saying " i cant sit longer then" know the I is in panic and will use all dirty moves to get out of the silence. So mind ur balls  ;D
do not torture ur self! All you do do it with full and awake compation towards ur self. At the end of the day it is you trying to kill yourself so keep it as friendly as possible  :)

no matter what remain relaxed

if you hit a brick wall cool sit shorter go for long walks and use them to practice mindful wachfulness.
It helps of course to sit for longer time but still the sitting practice is indeed only a tool. Off the cushion is the real stuff the real bleeding the real fight ;) fight with total compationate-pasionate awakeness.

 


Wise words. It is indeed a basic knot we tie ourselves in when we step on the path which we must undo to find the answers: we make an ego-based decision to kill the ego.

If you drop a frog in a pan of boiling water it jumps out, whilst if you leave it in a slowly warming pan it let's itself get cooked. You gotta cook the ego the same way. Not to say that there are not moments of realisation and steep learning as we walk the path - there are - it's just that the ego fights it's own decision *less* if you do it with compassion.
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

soma

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Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2010, 07:46:08 AM »
On 'Dharma Overground' I found the following post by 'tarin greco' that further supports your (Matthews) claim that focusing at the belly, or 'whole body breathing' has definite advantages over anapana at the nose.
Not that you, Matthew, needed this further support but I thought it is usefull additional information on a much discussed topic here so I post it :


Quote
Quote
Derek A Cameron:
In the section on the First Jhana, beginning of Chapter 21, p. 139, MCTB talks about using "the breath" as a basis for jhana. (Oh, and BTW, thanks for making the PDF available for free!)

All the other material I've encountered (e.g., Brasington, Ajahn Brahm, Snyder & Rasmussen) assumes one is concentrating on the breath at the nostrils.

My question is this:

Will the breath at the belly work equally well to form a basis for jhana?


a bit of history: mahasi sayadaw taught his students (who, over the decades, numbered in the thousands) to anchor their minds to the rise and fall of the abdomen while doing noting practice, but also allowed those who preferred to focus on their breath at their nostrils to do so. the reason he gave for teaching the breath at the abdomen was that it was a coarse, easily perceptible area, whereas the breath at the nostrils sometimes became too refined for meditators to detect changes thereat.. and without being able to perceive those motions, meditators would not be able to investigate well. as he had (and his tradition's students have) a very good track record for teaching people to get to stream entry[1], and as jhana[2] is required to reach this point, then it can be said without any doubt that focusing on the breath at the belly can work very well to form a basis for jhana.

furthermore, there are many soto zen teachers, and chi gong teachers, who teach breathing from the hara/tan tien, which is a spot a few fingers below the navel and in from the surface, which can be felt most easily gently feeling for a pressure thereabouts while breathing in and out from the belly (rather than just the chest). keeping the mind here in meditation is a demonstrably effective way of going into jhana.

further still, being attentive to the breath from the abdomen, rather than the nostrils, is one way of realising that the breath affects the entire body (and not just the abdomen). the awareness of this 'whole-body breathing' can lead a meditator into tranquility very quickly, and is a very good way to proceed in vipassana.

tarin

[1] in burma, it is acknowledged that a 2-3 month mahasi retreat is generally sufficient for the purpose, and one monk in the tradition has told me that 6 months ought to be enough for everyone (else they should consider finding another technique); in thailand, the mahasi method has rapidly spread throughout the country since its introduction from burma in the mid-20th century, and is colloquially known as the 'rising-falling technique'; in the west, the mahasi method was adopted as the principle mode of instruction at IMS (insight meditation society) due to its outstanding performance - people were getting stream entry - in trials the society conducted early on.

[2] one of u pandita's abbots has told me that the etymology of the word 'jhana' has to do with the notion of 'burning' or 'burning up', and as such, jhana should be understand as not merely a suppression of the hindrances but as a way of burning through them to arrive to their roots, at which point the roots can then be uprooted (the point at which path is attained). this perspective supports the notion that progress through the jhanas is identical to the progress of insight, and is a necessary feature of insight practice.

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2010, 08:21:00 AM »
Kill the importance of Jhana Kill the importance of Buddha Kill the importance of Anapana, Kill the importance!

Simply see all as part of running away from who you Is, the self. Face your self and the whole body, Face it not Focus on it. Kill the Focus too.

Welcome the conditioned madness into the light of mindfulness armed with calming awareness. Screw all the concepts they are not worth it, they become a sleeping pill, one of many already taken.

If there is one lesson to be learned in this practice is of letting go by watching it to death.

Remain relaxed  :)

soma

  • Guest
Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2010, 10:24:11 AM »
Kill the importance of Jhana Kill the importance of Buddha Kill the importance of Anapana, Kill the importance!

Simply see all as part of running away from who you Is, the self. Face your self and the whole body, Face it not Focus on it. Kill the Focus too.

Welcome the conditioned madness into the light of mindfulness armed with calming awareness. Screw all the concepts they are not worth it, they become a sleeping pill, one of many already taken.

If there is one lesson to be learned in this practice is of letting go by watching it to death.

Remain relaxed  :)

Dear Morning Dew !

If you can awaken right now, free from suffering and abide 24/7 in pure awareness and thereby surrender totally to life I congratulate you from the bottom of my heart  :)

However, I can not, but through the path of this very life, which for me, the past seven months have included the path of meditation I have come to free myself from a lot of suffering and to realize that it is actually possible to fully awaken in this very life - it is my firm conviction.
I have gained an intellectual/conceptual , and to some degree self experienced experimental, understanding of what binds this 'me' to suffering and what work needs to be done to eradicate the illusion of this 'me'.
The paradox is that to realize fully, not only itellectually, that there is nothing to be done, nowhere to go, you have to do a lot of work.
Then the question comes up whether 'I' am doing anything or Life is doing me so to speak. Am 'I' meditating from 'free will', have 'I' dcided to meditate or am 'I' just an expression of Life/spirit becoming conscious of it self ?
So maybe this practice that we are doing is in fact not a struggle against life but rather a beginning surrender to it - an impersonal (not self), neutral process of Life unfolding.
I understand what you are saying but Jhana is a tool which I have decided to attain in order to have a very much stronger base for further insight practice and the experience of jhana is in itself a purifying experience and vipassana is in fact being very close to life as it actually is, and closing in on life till you finally merge with it totally.
What you advise me to do in your post is in fact to do what I am allready doing, it is called vipassana and is a concept until practiced.
However I would not 'kill the focus'  since it is needed to se my own madness clearly, with laser-like attention :)

Do not be a lazy man or run away into an intellectual idea of not doing anything and dropping all techniques because that is your ego adopting to your spiritual inclination ;)

Jiddhu Krishnamurti was surely a wise man but utterly boring and he did a lot of searching himself before telling others to do nothing 8)

All the best.
soma
  
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 11:24:15 AM by soma »

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #55 on: July 25, 2010, 12:07:08 PM »
I meant kill the one wanting the focus the intelectual one so focus can come on its own. :)

soma

  • Guest
Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2010, 05:12:36 PM »
Yes, well things come on their own and yet they do not.

Consider to go on a retreat, MD - it is a great and rare opportunity to push trough doubts and frustrations that can be hard to get trough when having limited amount of time and perfect conditions to practice in home enviroment.

I am quite convinced that you get as much from practice as you give yourself to it but this does not mean that the practice must be rigid and torturing.
Curiousity and a light heart is the way to go but dicipline and effort is also essential.

I am going i december/january this year in Ödeshög, some three and a half hours with bus, north of Göteborg...check it out on the internet  ;)

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2010, 05:44:26 PM »
I didnt realise you are from Sverige ;)

I am sure that my psychy is not yet ready for such extent sitting. Will do solo until i can sit confortably with my self for an hour without any external help/influence (group sitting, music, mantras, counting, anapana at nose any othet specific focusing, drugs etc). Only simply facing and calming my deluded self as it actualy is.

i have let go of frustrations! I have let go of doubts! :)

Waching myself as i am on the cushion and off of it.

soma

  • Guest
Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #58 on: July 25, 2010, 06:00:52 PM »

Yes, I live in Göteborg.

i have let go of frustrations! I have let go of doubts! :)

Waching myself as i am on the cushion and off of it.

So we are on the same path after all  :)

puppybunny1

  • Guest
Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2010, 11:37:30 PM »
Hi all,
I have experienced recently that by letting go of all "jhana experiences" help me to grow as a mediator.  These experiences are like an "EGO" test to overcome.  It is like I have to control my experiences.  I am not sure if this is correct, but it is much better than being pulled to different places.

All comments are appreciated.

Metta,
puppybunny1

soma

  • Guest
Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #60 on: July 29, 2010, 04:46:53 PM »
Hi all,
I have experienced recently that by letting go of all "jhana experiences" help me to grow as a mediator.  These experiences are like an "EGO" test to overcome.  It is like I have to control my experiences.  I am not sure if this is correct, but it is much better than being pulled to different places.

All comments are appreciated.

Metta,
puppybunny1

Could you clarify what you mean by letting go of the experiences - you still have them but can remain equanimous (no clinging) ?
If you experience jhana it is because your concentration is strong enough and the conditions are right, so I take it you do not mean that you have decided not to have them at all ?
We need to let go and stop clinging not only of the jhanas but of everything - probably your ability to let go made the jhanas possible to arise in the first place.
What sort of a practice do you do ? just shamatha or vipassana or tandem? If vipassana, how do you go about - noting or body sweeping or some other technique ?

puppybunny1

  • Guest
Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #61 on: August 11, 2010, 10:12:03 PM »
Hi there,
I do mean clinging when I say let go.  I start my meditation practice with Vipassana right after I read the suttas and send metta out to all beings.  I concentrate on the tummy.  When I feel anything different from the tummy going up and down, then I note it and let go. Basically, I am trying to let go of all experiences even Jhanas.  I don't know if that is good or bad, but I have heard dhamma talks from monks around the world about how the Buddha let go of all experiences. 

Hope this helps to answer your questions.
Metta....
puppybunny1