Poll

Should experiences like jhana, or paths and fruits, etc. be shared?

agree
13 (68.4%)
disagree
0 (0%)
only with teacher
3 (15.8%)
other (describe)
3 (15.8%)

Total Members Voted: 7

Author Topic: Sharing Experiences  (Read 17408 times)

unprevadedrapture

Sharing Experiences
« on: April 25, 2010, 01:54:50 AM »
Quote
Rule number one... Never tell anyone your experiences.. Talk very little about anything that happens between you and the divine/noumenal, etc.. Rule number 2 When you must talk about your experiences please see rule number One...
  What do you think? Why?

Jhananda

Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2010, 02:04:08 AM »
I believe it is very important to share experiences with jhana and the other fruit (phala) of the contemplative life in public is important, because no Buddhist priest seems to understand them.  One needs guidance through them, so one must seek out that guidance wherever one can, and since the Buddhist priesthood has no experience with them, then one must find that guidance wherever one can, even from a demonized  Ecstatic Buddhist, such as myself.

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Member
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2010, 05:04:00 AM »
Share them with people who care and understand, not because your motivation is to glorify your practice, but when you need feedback from others genuine about the path.

Warmly,

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

unprevadedrapture

Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2010, 05:51:13 AM »
i think these states have a quality that inhibits one from the ramifications of talking openly about them. it can potentially be hurtful to oneself, one's practice, offend others, and cause greed to arise... it can also be helpful in many ways in the right context (i can imagine with a teacher one trusts especially). for me talking about my relation to my innermost or experiences openly has not been entirely skillful, and when i've observed others doing so it often seems sleezy. unless one feels or knows inside that one is mean to speak openly about it, and is serving a greater purpose in doing so, it seems wise to remain circumspect. there are rules i've read, expelling one as a student of the buddha, in the case of bragging about such things, or revealing them to laity if i remember correctly, etc. thanks a lot for your ideas. :) Jhanada, are you a black magician or something? why are you demonized?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2010, 06:29:47 AM by unprevadedrapture »

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Member
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2010, 08:14:34 AM »
He is demonized for shining a light somewhere traditional Buddhism did not want it shined. Specifically the fact that thousands of years of practice has not lead to thousands of Buddhas which is what one would expect. His experience of Jhana opens up a wormhole for many schools of Buddhism.

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

unprevadedrapture

Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2010, 09:06:51 AM »
(i was just kidding about the magician thing of course...)

soma

Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2010, 01:07:20 PM »
Share them with people who care and understand, not because your motivation is to glorify your practice, but when you need feedback from others genuine about the path.

Warmly,

Matthew


Why would not people care to hear about your experiences if posted in for example this forum ?
I thought that the point of a forum on Vipassana  was to help people advance in their practice and if one has not got a 'live' sangha and a teacher then one has to rely on a forum like this to get som guidance.
Where else will you find people who will understand if not here ?

soma

Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2010, 01:24:18 PM »
There are almost no posts at all about meditation experiences other than hurting knees and such in this forums and it is really strange.
If one meditates for lets say two hours a day, which I believe many members here do, then one is bound to have some profound experiences in a few months and these experiences will be a sign of progress and it is very helpful to have very experienced fellow meditators to ask about these experiences in order to know how to proceed and to get these experiences into context.
Is there even one post in this forum about the maps of insight ?
Ofcourse there might be some potential risks with talking about experiences and attainments but the value of doing so is much greater than beeing silent about them.
It is just weird when everybody is very helpful in the very beginning when you have problems with posture and pains and then go totaly silent on you when you actually make some real progress. These taboos seem to say that we should not really 'get somewhere' or attain anything, just pretend that we are striving for something. There are other forums were these things are not only allowed but encouraged and they do have some problems but problems are unavoidable anyway and the benefits of sharing and encouraging each other are much greater than some petty problems now and then.
What is the purpose of a meditation forum if it is not to help people advance in their meditation practice ?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2010, 01:43:05 PM by soma »

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Member
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2010, 06:21:55 PM »
soma,

Why would not people care to hear about your experiences if posted in for example this forum ?
I thought that the point of a forum on Vipassana  was to help people advance in their practice and if one has not got a 'live' sangha and a teacher then one has to rely on a forum like this to get som guidance.
Where else will you find people who will understand if not here ?

This is exactly what this place is here for:

....
In particular "mindless speculation of imponderables" and purely intellectual debates are not what this place is about - this place is a meditation practice oriented community of active meditators - not an intellectual playground for the amusement of people with a purely intellectual approach to the subject. The approach is practical, personal and experiential.
...

Warmly,

In the Dhamma,

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

unprevadedrapture

Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2010, 06:29:08 PM »
its very easy to make special experiences into a materialistic thing, or build some pride or ego about it. not everyone who reads these forums would benefit from hearing about our own experiences of battling nagas in the eighth dimension, and so on.

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Member
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2010, 06:37:03 PM »
its very easy to make special experiences into a materialistic thing, or build some pride or ego about it. not everyone who reads these forums would benefit from hearing about our own experiences of battling nagas in the eighth dimension, and so on.

That is one reason why not everything here is public domain.

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

elliberto

Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2010, 07:28:37 PM »
He is demonized for shining a light somewhere traditional Buddhism did not want it shined. Specifically the fact that thousands of years of practice has not lead to thousands of Buddhas which is what one would expect. His experience of Jhana opens up a wormhole for many schools of Buddhism.

My experience is that if you want to convey something to people they might be reluctant to hear, it helps a whole lot if you do so in a compassionate way.
It's pointless to complain about being demonized, misunderstood or not being listened to if you don't.

Jhananda

Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2010, 12:18:19 AM »
He is demonized for shining a light somewhere traditional Buddhism did not want it shined. Specifically the fact that thousands of years of practice has not lead to thousands of Buddhas which is what one would expect. His experience of Jhana opens up a wormhole for many schools of Buddhism.

Matthew
Thank-you Matthew for providing the only forum where I am welcome to express myself freely.  However, as we can see from how offensive some people have become here from expressing my direct experiences with jhana and other fruit (phala), it seems there are few people on this planet who care to hear from people about their authentic meditation accomplishments.  It seems all they want to hear about is sore knees and backs.

Best regards, Jhananda

elliberto

Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2010, 04:26:06 PM »
Quote
Thank-you Matthew for providing the only forum where I am welcome to express myself freely.  However, as we can see from how offensive some people have become here from expressing my direct experiences with jhana and other fruit (phala), it seems there are few people on this planet who care to hear from people about their authentic meditation accomplishments.  It seems all they want to hear about is sore knees and backs.

Speaking for myself I have no problem with you expressing your direct experiences with jhana and other fruit (phala) on the contrary I think it's an interesting message.
But I don't care much for you putting other people down or elevating yourself to a position above reproach. It's unneccesary, annoying and unskillful. It only makes your message harder to swallow and I suspect this attitude could have a lot to do with you being demonized.

Jhananda

Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2010, 12:49:25 AM »
Speaking for myself I have no problem with you expressing your direct experiences with jhana and other fruit (phala) on the contrary I think it's an interesting message.
But I don't care much for you putting other people down or elevating yourself to a position above reproach. It's unneccesary, annoying and unskillful. It only makes your message harder to swallow and I suspect this attitude could have a lot to do with you being demonized.
Hello elliberto, and thank-you for your response, while my criticism of the Buddhist priesthood might offend a lot of people, nonetheless someone has to do it, and if I am completely ignored in this lifetime for doing so, then I will have been very successful for being one of the few people with the insight and/or courage to show that the "emperor has no clothes."  Also, in marginalizing me for my attainments, the priesthood has left me with no other option.  If I did not call attention to the fact that they are liars, then I would have to spend the rest of this lifetime silent anyway, so I figure they have left me with no other choice.

Best regards, Jhananda

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Member
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2010, 06:37:06 AM »
Jhananda,

You always have other options. As you say we welcome your input here so don't get me wrong when I say this please, however, your style, even here, has involved at times some unwholesome words.

Ask if it is the best you can do to have yourself cast out? The answer I know is that it is not. There are as I stated before seven other folds to the path than meditation. Jhana is not even the defining feature of meditation, though it is undoubtedly a key part of the process and much underestimated and under-esteemed. The defining feature of meditation is Samadhi leading to insight leading to the extinction of the three root poisons. The deepest Samadhi will not be reached without attaining Jhana, for sure, but that is not the end of it.

 .. if you get stuck there it is due to remaining ignorance, anger or desire - or some combination thereof, and thus; "you have not done what needs to be done".

Reflect on this: better to be cast out and lead to a slight change in how things are perceived or better to be compassionate, understand people - including monks - suffer ignorance, then act with equanimity and continue trying to "strive diligently for your own salvation" - which will lead to greater Dhamma activity on your part? Especially if you are the one who finds the keys to all the gates along the path.

There seems to me to be an imbalance in your meditation practice and your relationship with the outside world that are connected and have contributed to this situation.

Though I feel strongly as an EX-Shambhallian that Chogyam Trungpa fell off the wagon (in terms of drinking and Dhamma) I can still see he contributed much wisdom in his days. When asked if he thought Jesus Chris was enlightened, his reply in his squeeky voice was, "I don't think it is very enlightened to get yourself killed".

Similarly I would suggest it is not very enlightened to "get yourself cast out". A man of perfect skilful means would not fall into this trap. There is clearly work for you to do on the path within the other folds as well as meditation. Blaming the world for your problems doesn't wash. You are ignorant of some things regarding your own state of mind that you need to bring into the light of day to progress through refinement of your meditation or attention to other folds of the path.

And by doing so you will provide both greater service to yourself and greater service to the world.

Warmly,

In the Dhamma,

Matthew
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 06:41:02 AM by The Irreverent Buddhist »
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Morning Dew

Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2010, 08:13:34 AM »
Quote
There seems to me to be an imbalance in your meditation practice and your relationship with the outside world that are connected and have contributed to this situation.

I have this very same problem.

Thanks TIB

soma

Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2010, 11:54:34 AM »
When asked if he thought Jesus Chris was enlightened, his reply in his squeeky voice was, "I don't think it is very enlightened to get yourself killed".


Obviously Chogyam Trungpa did not understand the analogy of Jesus Christ dying on the cross and the need to die to our 'Self' to merge with the divine.

Jhananda

Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2010, 01:51:55 AM »
Jhananda,

You always have other options. As you say we welcome your input here so don't get me wrong when I say this please, however, your style, even here, has involved at times some unwholesome words.

Ask if it is the best you can do to have yourself cast out? The answer I know is that it is not. There are as I stated before seven other folds to the path than meditation. Jhana is not even the defining feature of meditation, though it is undoubtedly a key part of the process and much underestimated and under-esteemed. The defining feature of meditation is Samadhi leading to insight leading to the extinction of the three root poisons. The deepest Samadhi will not be reached without attaining Jhana, for sure, but that is not the end of it.

 .. if you get stuck there it is due to remaining ignorance, anger or desire - or some combination thereof, and thus; "you have not done what needs to be done".

Reflect on this: better to be cast out and lead to a slight change in how things are perceived or better to be compassionate, understand people - including monks - suffer ignorance, then act with equanimity and continue trying to "strive diligently for your own salvation" - which will lead to greater Dhamma activity on your part? Especially if you are the one who finds the keys to all the gates along the path.

There seems to me to be an imbalance in your meditation practice and your relationship with the outside world that are connected and have contributed to this situation.

Though I feel strongly as an EX-Shambhallian that Chogyam Trungpa fell off the wagon (in terms of drinking and Dhamma) I can still see he contributed much wisdom in his days. When asked if he thought Jesus Chris was enlightened, his reply in his squeeky voice was, "I don't think it is very enlightened to get yourself killed".

Similarly I would suggest it is not very enlightened to "get yourself cast out". A man of perfect skilful means would not fall into this trap. There is clearly work for you to do on the path within the other folds as well as meditation. Blaming the world for your problems doesn't wash. You are ignorant of some things regarding your own state of mind that you need to bring into the light of day to progress through refinement of your meditation or attention to other folds of the path.

And by doing so you will provide both greater service to yourself and greater service to the world.

Warmly,

In the Dhamma,

Matthew
Hello Matthew, I was hopeful when you invited me to this forum that there was finally a mature Buddhist forum where my critical review of Buddhism, and my ecstatic dialog, were welcome.  However, when you simply cannot get that I was demonized simply for my attainments, and when you think that a alcoholic, philanderer, sex-addict, such as Chogyam Trungpa "contributed much wisdom," then I realize that in such an environment there is not much I can contribute.   You do not even get that in the corrupt system of Buddhism today that a rigorous contemplative with attainment, such as myself, is demonized; while a philandering, alcoholic, sex-addict, such as Chogyam Trungpa, is lionized, then we know that PT Barnum was correct when he said, "A sucker is born every minute.

So, I am unsubscribing myself.  Anyone who is interested in what a rigorous contemplative with attainment and no addictions has to say, then you can find me through my website:
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/

May those who sincerely seek enlightenment in this lifetime find it,

Jhananda

unprevadedrapture

Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2010, 02:34:02 AM »
thanks for your advice and thoughts. sadu. 




---

Do not try to become anything.
Do not make yourself into anything.
Do not be a meditator.
Do not become enlightened.
When you sit, let it be.
What you walk, let it be.
Grasp at nothing.
Resist nothing.
Ajhan Chah

joy

  • Member
Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2010, 05:54:47 AM »
Exactly four months back (26/12/09), TIB welcome Jhananda saying

Welcome to the forums. Our understanding of BuddhaDhamma is remarkably similar.     ...

.....We may have some semantic confusion regarding terminology but I do think we are both singing from pretty much the same songsheet - it is merely a matter of finding such semantic differences and clearing those up.  ....

Again, welcome to the forums. We are an eclectic bunch and I hope you will find the discussion here informative and also I look forward to hearing your contributions, though i understand your commitment to practice and itinerant lifestyle may limit or make sporadic your involvement.

Once TIB said

..all "higher practices" usually only end up feeding the ego - and not cutting it's roots as good meditation practice must do.

Sadhu
Shanti
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 05:59:41 AM by joydip_ppl »
Joy

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Member
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2010, 08:15:10 AM »
Jhananda,

Hello Matthew, I was hopeful when you invited me to this forum that there was finally a mature Buddhist forum where my critical review of Buddhism, and my ecstatic dialog, were welcome.  However, when you simply cannot get that I was demonized simply for my attainments, and when you think that a alcoholic, philanderer, sex-addict, such as Chogyam Trungpa "contributed much wisdom," then I realize that in such an environment there is not much I can contribute.   You do not even get that in the corrupt system of Buddhism today that a rigorous contemplative with attainment, such as myself, is demonized; while a philandering, alcoholic, sex-addict, such as Chogyam Trungpa, is lionized, then we know that PT Barnum was correct when he said, "A sucker is born every minute.

Unfortunately you have done what I thought you might even though I hoped you wouldn't. No one here is suggesting your attainments are not real. I am not in a position to comment on the whole of your demonisation. I have said elsewhere that you were demonised in part for shining the light where some people don't want it shone. I think the other part is that you have still failed to shine the light on certain aspects of your unconscious and are over-estimating the value of Jhana.

Sitting in bliss all day is no use if it leads you to unskilful words and interactions.

Oh well. At least you can not say you were cast out from here. You have chosen to be an outcast. It is vaguely reminiscent of a repetitive temper tantrum, which seems why you are stuck in the same dance with everyone you encounter.

Wishing you the best whatever choices you make.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 08:21:08 AM by The Irreverent Buddhist »
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Crystal Palace

  • Member
  • "Move on Bhikkus, Move On" - Buddha
    • Thai Forest Tradition
Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2010, 01:30:56 PM »
Dear Jhananda,

I hope it not too late already. While your views are definitely different, they nonetheless offer some food for thought and your experiences of jhanas adds great value to this forum.

On behalf of all those who are interested in your views, I urge you to reconsider your decision of unsubscribing yourself. There is no reason why we cannot accommodate different views in this forum.

This forum is not better off with you not around.

Very Warmly,
Crystal Palace
"Abstain from unwholesome actions,
Perform wholesome actions,
Purify your mind"

Buddha

atomjack

Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2010, 02:48:59 PM »
Jhananda,

You are bound to find people who disagree on an internet forum. You will also find people who appreciate your input and find it interesting. Please pay attention if pride or ego is ever keeping you from posting if you feel like you'd like to continue to post here. While people may have their disagreements here, this forum gives you a great opportunity to discuss meditation with people from all over the world.


growth

Re: Sharing Experiences
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2010, 10:30:53 PM »
Share them with those who are receptive as their input could further enrich and give more meaning to your experiences.

 

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