Author Topic: theravada and nibbana  (Read 3448 times)

unprevadedrapture

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theravada and nibbana
« on: April 20, 2010, 12:45:32 AM »
do many therevada monks and laypeople aspire to anything beyond nibbana? within the cannon does the buddha teach any other path? all i've seen is in a subcommentary taking the divine abodes as the bodhisatta and mahasatta's path.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 12:51:19 AM by unprevadedrapture »

unprevadedrapture

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Re: theravada and nibbana
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2010, 11:02:49 AM »
« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 11:05:45 AM by unprevadedrapture »

Matthew

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Re: theravada and nibbana
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2010, 03:02:18 PM »
Think the thread can stay .. someone may have something to add .. unless you prefer it deleted.

:)

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

dharmastuff

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Re: theravada and nibbana
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2010, 01:19:14 AM »
This is an excellent question.

Nibbana actually has two meanings: one is the culmination of the 16 stages of "the progress of insight" where a practitioner experiences a momentary loss of consciousness. The first time one attains this during meditation is called "stream entry" in Theravada terms. Practitioners who are breaking apart mental and physical phenomena by seeing them clearly (call it seeing the 3 characteristics of all mind movements, call it sampajanna, etc.) such as those who are mastering the Mahasi noting technique, are able to notice these more often than others, though it doesn't mean they don't go through them. body-scanning has been found to be less effective at taking people from udayabayanyana to sankharaupekkha-nyana and then fruition (first meaning of nibbana).
The second meaning of Nibbana is actually arahatship. This is attained by people today, regular people who have jobs, partners, friends and so on. so do not think of arahats as some sort of supermen who are glowing with light, are always right, are in a constant state of blissing-out.

practice well and may you enter the stream sooner rather than later.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 01:22:26 AM by dharmastuff »

unprevadedrapture

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Re: theravada and nibbana
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2010, 01:43:15 AM »
Quote
ego is eliminated by letting go, and seeing the aggregates (form, feeling, reaction, perception, consciousness) for what they are directly, without confusion. then there is a shift in consciousness that changes the roots of perception. then if that's not defeated by some external mara, there will be no serious fall. unless we see through unverified superstition in this way, then we cannot progress to actually eliminate higher fetters. all ignorance is eliminated as an arahat, but sensual desire must be eliminated first. only after stream entry, or once in the stream, then the use of energy, whatever form that takes, jhana, kundalini, et al. allows for higher paths and fruits, i.e. the actual elimination of higher fetters.

(1) personality-belief (sakkāya-ditthi)
(2) sceptical doubt (vicikicchā)
(3) clinging to mere rules and ritual (sīlabbata-parāmāsa; s. upādāna)
(4) sensuous craving (kāma-rāga)
(5) ill-will (vyāpāda)
(6) craving for fine-material existence (rūpa-rāga)
(7) craving for immaterial existence (arūpa-rāga)
(8) conceit (māna)
(9) restlessness (uddhacca)
(10) ignorance (avijjā)
do you agree with this understanding?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 02:18:14 AM by unprevadedrapture »

dharmastuff

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Re: theravada and nibbana
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2010, 09:33:10 AM »
Agreeing or disagreeing has nothing to do with it.
Enter the stream, and you will know how it feels like, become and arahat and you will know what it feels like.

Debates on this are useless.

Practice well my friend.

unprevadedrapture

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Re: theravada and nibbana
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2010, 07:36:37 PM »
true. agreeing or disagreeing has nothing to do with it. i can't phrase it any other way.
Quote
Enter the stream, and you will know how it feels like,
i don't think that's necessarily so. its not about debates but knowing what is worth our energy, vs. other instructions we may receive and knowing what to do again, or what to do for the first time. this is why finding a teacher is important.

dharmastuff

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Re: theravada and nibbana
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2010, 10:35:09 PM »
Yes, finding a competent teacher is very important and worthwhile, another good thing to be able to do is to know when to seek another teacher (ie, not getting fixated on one teaching), this is highly valuable.

What I meant by "enter the stream, and you will know how it feels like" - You will not know what it is to be a stream-enterer, until you will become one (not in the so-distant past hopefully), so thinking what a stream-enterer can or cannot do or feel is useless and time-wasting.

soma

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Re: theravada and nibbana
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2010, 11:27:35 PM »
Hi, dharmastuff !

What would you suggest be the fastest way to stream- entry ?
Long intensive retreats Mahasi Sayadaw noting style and a daily practice of 2 - 3 one hour sits ?


dharmastuff

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Re: theravada and nibbana
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2010, 08:07:09 AM »
I'm not the one to say there's one way which is the fastest way.
What I do know is that when IMS switched their instructions on the yearly 3-month retreat from body-scanning to Mahasi noting, they got many more stream-enterers.

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: theravada and nibbana
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2010, 12:06:10 PM »
Buddhism is not what you think or intellectualise about. dharmastuff makes an important point .. you won't know how any stage of the path really is until you experience it, feel it, be it.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

dharmastuff

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Re: theravada and nibbana
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2010, 10:15:55 AM »
All we need to know is that getting stream entry is worthwhile, getting the middle paths are worthwhile and that getting arahatship is really worthwhile for us. And we need some good teachers who know what they're talking about, and are not embarrassed to talk about their own enlightenment, without pretending to be supermen!
 

convivium

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Re: theravada and nibbana
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2010, 10:25:38 AM »
to what extent is stream entry the same for each individual? there's no standard by which to measure it qualitatively? is that the quality with which to measure it? what is and what is not nibbana seems so subtle; e.g. neither perseption nor non-perseption, nothingness, passing out.

dharmastuff

  • Guest
Re: theravada and nibbana
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2010, 10:28:42 AM »
Once someone has entered "experienced" the non-experience of nibbana (fruition) for a moment, one is considered a stream-enterer.
That said, those who are practicing extremely precise noting tend to notice this more often, which doesn't mean those who don't recognize this haven't entered the stream.

Again, we are dealing with semantics here. better to find a competent teacher whom you trust and practice until you get results.

 

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