Author Topic: Why I Sit by Paul R. Fleischman  (Read 33501 times)

pamojjam

Re: Why I Sit by Paul R. Fleischman
« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2010, 05:36:39 PM »
The translation comes from accesstoinsight.org and with programs like the 'Pali Text Reader' it can be easily located:


10. Yuganaddhasuttaṃ

170. Evaṃ me sutaṃ : ekaṃ samayaṃ āyasmā ānando kosambiyaṃ viharati ghositārāme. Tatra kho āyasmā ānando bhikkhū āmantesi : «āvuso bhikkhave»ti. «Āvuso»ti kho te bhikkhū āyasmato ānandassa paccassosuṃ. Āyasmā [T] ānando etadavoca :

«Yo hi koci, āvuso, bhikkhu vā bhikkhunī vā mama santike arahattappattiṃ [arahattappattaṃ (ka.) paṭi. ma. 2.1 paṭisambhidāmaggepi] byākaroti, sabbo so catūhi maggehi, etesaṃ vā aññatarena.

«Katamehi catūhi? Idha, āvuso, bhikkhu samathapubbaṅgamaṃ vipassanaṃ bhāveti. Tassa samathapubbaṅgamaṃ vipassanaṃ bhāvayato maggo sañjāyati. So taṃ maggaṃ āsevati bhāveti bahulīkaroti. Tassa taṃ maggaṃ āsevato bhāvayato bahulīkaroto saṃyojanāni pahīyanti, anusayā byantīhonti.

«Puna caparaṃ, āvuso, bhikkhu vipassanāpubbaṅgamaṃ samathaṃ bhāveti. Tassa vipassanāpubbaṅgamaṃ samathaṃ bhāvayato maggo sañjāyati. So taṃ maggaṃ āsevati bhāveti bahulīkaroti . Tassa taṃ maggaṃ āsevato bhāvayato bahulīkaroto saṃyojanāni pahīyanti, anusayā byantīhonti.

«Puna caparaṃ, āvuso, bhikkhu samathavipassanaṃ yuganaddhaṃ bhāveti. Tassa samathavipassanaṃ yuganaddhaṃ bhāvayato maggo sañjāyati. So taṃ maggaṃ āsevati bhāveti bahulīkaroti. Tassa taṃ maggaṃ āsevato bhāvayato bahulīkaroto saṃyojanāni pahīyanti, anusayā byantīhonti.

«Puna caparaṃ, āvuso, bhikkhuno dhammuddhaccaviggahitaṃ mānasaṃ hoti. Hoti so, āvuso, samayo yaṃ taṃ cittaṃ ajjhattameva santiṭṭhati sannisīdati ekodi hoti samādhiyati. Tassa maggo sañjāyati. So taṃ maggaṃ āsevati bhāveti bahulīkaroti. Tassa taṃ maggaṃ āsevato bhāvayato bahulīkaroto saṃyojanāni pahīyanti, anusayā byantīhonti.

«Yo hi koci, āvuso, bhikkhu vā bhikkhunī vā mama santike arahattappattiṃ byākaroti, sabbo so imehi catūhi maggehi, etesaṃ vā aññatarenā»ti. Dasamaṃ.


Without a link, it is very difficult to check the translation of a quote, especially suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya, because there seems to be no numbering convention there to follow.  Is this sutta from volume 1 book 4, but there is no 170th sutta anywhere in the AN; however, there might be a 170th line, so is it volume 4 line 170?  The reason why I wish to check this translation is in most cases where a translated sutta states the idea of vipassana verses jhana, in most cases we find the translation was forced, because the term vipassana ussually does not even appear in the sutta.

It's in Aguttaranikayo, Catukkanipatapali, Patipadavaggo (Chapter 17), Yuganaddhasuttam (Sutta 10).

In my view it's not so much about 'versus' than 'tandem'.

Regards.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 06:10:54 PM by pamojjam »

Jhananda

Re: Why I Sit by Paul R. Fleischman
« Reply #51 on: April 06, 2010, 03:55:10 PM »
Thank-you pamojjam, for providing the sources for the translation that you were working from, and even the Pali and its correct placement in the sutta pitaka.  For some reason Thanasaro Bhikkhu does not follow a recognized sutta numbering system.  Perhaps it is because he does not want people scrutinizing his translation work. 

I find the idea of peer review tends to be completely absent in most religions, which tends to create an environment in which any ignorant person with enough of a following of naïve devotees can say whatever he wants about religion, which explains why no mainstream religion today has a close resemblance to its origins, and the translation of its canon is too often grossly misinterpreted.  So, those who tend to check their sources and report the discrepancies are typically marginalized in most mainstream religions.

So, we have a sutta, where the term ‘vipassana’ actually appears.  It is quite remarkable, because I have found in most places where the term ‘insight’ appears in a translation of a sutta, the term ‘vipassna’ is absent in the Pali of the sutta.

I to tend to be not so much about 'versus' than 'tandem,' because in my experience I found revelatory, intuitive insight (vipassana) emerged as a product of meditation (sati) that produced absorption (jhana).  In fact the longer I spend in absorption every day, the more revelatory, intuitive insight I tend to experience.  So, I am not a vipassana before jhana kind of person, and I find it hard to argue that anyone can experience a deeply intuitive insight before cultivating deep and abiding absorption. And, if we look at the various heartwood suttas we find this idea of jhana before vipassana is confirmed, but don’t tell that to Goenka, because he has the money to buy a lot of naïve devotees so that he can say whatever nonsense he wants to say about the Buddha dhamma, and his dogmatic followers will viciously enforce his corrupt view of the dhamma.  For instance the practice of meditation (sati) is NOT insight (vipassana) but that nonsense is what the misinformed, like Goenka and Gunaratina, want us to believe.

Best regards, Jhananda



 

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