Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism

[Matthew]

Question :     So one should not try to perpetuate blissful or ecstatic states?

Ramana Maharshi :
The final obstacle in meditation is ecstasy; you feel great bliss and happiness and want to stay in that ecstasy. Do not yield to it but pass on to the next stage which is great calm. The calm is higher than ecstasy and it merges into samadhi. Successful samadhi causes a waking sleep state to supervene. In that state you know that you are always consciousness, for consciousness is your nature. Actually, one is always in samadhi but one does not know it. To know it all one has to do is to remove the obstacles.

They are tools on the path not a psychic fairground to spend 40 years in.

Matthew

[Jhananda]

Matthew, instead of continuing your Ad Hominem logical errors, you could just provide us with one sutta quote where the Buddha described a meditation technique called Vipassana ..

As stated above, and as I have reiterated repeatedly here since long before you were a part of the community, to my knowledge and experience insight arises from a firm base of Shamatha practice. I have been telling people this for years Jhananda.

Your premise for the above request is incorrect.

Matthew

Thank-you Matthew, for a reasonable response.  So, we can conclude that there is no place in the suttas where we can support a belief that the Buddha constructed a meditation technique that he called 'vipassana.'  And, while we are at it, there is no place in the suttas where the Buddha defined a meditation technique that he called 'Shamatha practice.' Also, there is no place in the suttas where the Buddha rejected the ecstatic altered states of consciousness, otherwise known as 'jhana.'  In fact the overwhelming premise in the suttas is the acquisition of 'jhana' was his vehicle to insight (vipassana); and traversing them all of the way to the fourth level, resolved the 4 Noble Truths and was the 8th fold of his Noble Eightfold Path, and the last three jhanas were also his definition for three of the 8 liberations.
kundalini, vîrya, viriya, virtue, Holy Spirit
Further discussion of this subject can be found in the following essay: Kundalini, Understanding the Charismatic Experience

[TomThumb]

Until now I have been very hesitant in participating in this thread. It is a “clash of the titans” far beyond where I belong or have anything of any value to contribute, in a factual, logical or philosophical sense. However, I am greatly saddened by the way it is going and as such am motivated to participate with a view to stopping it.

I guess, after a great deal of thought (time which undoubtedly would have been better spend meditating!), I would kindly, respectfully and humbly ask you both, Mathew and Jhananda to stop this debate. Just stop. Now. We all know that on the Web there are loads of pages on Buddhism and meditation, so there is a lot of people out there walking the walk and talking the talk about these things, but what for me (and I would like to think for many others here) what is so very valuable and special about this forum (that Mathew has started, runs and dedicates so many hours of his time to helping people), which keeps me coming back when I have so little free time, is that it is “a hand on the path”. In essence, a practical guide to helping people progress with the practice. I don’t feel alone in my struggle. I really feel that this interchange is losing that spirit.

I think that for the great majority of us in here, we are so far away from experiencing Jhana and that this debate is just not relevant. I accept that it is fundamentally important (and for what it is worth, I do actually have a strong opinion about it, although I am not going to put it here, since I have little ground upon which to found it), but way down the path for most of us, and given the practical supportive nature of this forum, I think that we should all respect each others perspective (whether we agree or not) and just walk away. Where no one tries to get the last word in… I mean “walk away” from this thread, not the forum. Jhananda, I have found a lot of your posts extremely interesting and valuable and show a lot of careful and erudite study, so I would ask you, please, not to leave. You have a lot of good practical information for newbies, wanabees and the like. Please don’t keep it to yourself just because of an “advanced practitioners disagreement” – regardless of whether you are right or wrong. Let’s just help each other along on the path.

As an aside, I am all too familiar with these online debate problems. As an academic I spend a lot of time arguing with my colleagues about research-related questions (that is how progress is often made). Some of these debates / disagreements have gone on for years – we will probably never reach an agreement. When I started off in this academic world and presented my first research ideas to my thesis supervisor, he wiped the floor with me and it left me somewhat depressed and disorientated. When he realised what happened, he told me that he was attacking my ideas and not me. With time I got used to it and now it is another tool in my repertoire. I have many times (in the heat of debate) stepped over the line and called people stuptid (or worse) and told them that their ideas are so bad that they are not even wrong, etc., but once the debate is over (clear result or not), am still happy to go down the pub with them! What I have found (the hard way) is that oral debates are a lot better than written ones. When we actually talk, a lot of what we say is imprecise and not exactly what we mean or wanted to say. Fortunately it blows away in the wind, but in emails and forum messages you are damned for what you write! It is just too easy to start citing each other and in no time one has a flame war going. Human use of natural language is just too sloppy for it to be used as a precise measure of what is meant, etc. And it can be just so damaging. These days when I get an email that I find delicate, or where I anticipate that a certain question is going to be delicate, I always try to meet the person or have a phone conversation to defuse any tension. I am not suggesting for a second that Mathew and Jhananda should get face to face, or do a Skypee, I am merely indicating the problems of written interchange – it can be dangerous. We should all be careful.

So please, lets just leave this thread alone and lets get back to the real purpose of this forum of actually helping each other along and sharing our own practical experiences, without judging others.

Thanks, fingers crossed,

TT

[dharmastuff]

Jhananda is certainly wrong,
as the Suttas point out the method of Satipatthana meditation in which one closely observes the mind, all dhammas in the mind, sensations or feeling-tone and body.

Jhana is part of the path but is not liberation itself, as nibbana is beyond the jhanas, only upon the cessation of consciousness is the mind liberated, and not even during the most refined Jhanic states.

[Jhananda]

Until now I have been very hesitant in participating in this thread. It is a “clash of the titans” far beyond where I belong or have anything of any value to contribute, in a factual, logical or philosophical sense. However, I am greatly saddened by the way it is going and as such am motivated to participate with a view to stopping it...
So please, lets just leave this thread alone and lets get back to the real purpose of this forum of actually helping each other along and sharing our own practical experiences, without judging others.

Thanks, fingers crossed,

TT

Thank-you TT, for posting a reasonable response.  However, if we abandon this thread, then, since I started this thread to post my videos and express my insights and attainments, then you are asking me to abandon my work on this forum, because I have found if I post my understanding of the dhamma on any other thread on this forum I am going to encounter just as much (if not more) offensive responses, so I believe if I am going to remain on this forum, then I will just remain on this thread, and keep my Ecstatic Buddhist discourse in one place. However, those who lack restraint are certainly welcome to restrain themselves from posting offensive comments to this thread.  And, since you are an academic, then you will appreciate my sources posted on most of my essays and quotes.

While you may not accept my opinion on this important issue of dhamma, you may accept the opinion of Thanissaro Bhikkhu.  While I do not accept Thanissaro Bhikkhu's use of language or many of his conclusions, he nonetheless supports some of my central premises in his essay “One Tool Among Many.”  Please see below.
 

One Tool Among Many, by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
“Vipassana is not a meditation technique. It's a quality of mind… if you look directly at the Pali discourses -- the earliest extant sources for our knowledge of the Buddha's teachings -- you'll find that although they do use the word samatha to mean tranquility, and vipassana to mean clear-seeing, they otherwise confirm none of the received wisdom about these terms. Only rarely do they make use of the word vipassana -- a sharp contrast to their frequent use of the word jhana. When they depict the Buddha telling his disciples to go meditate, they never quote him as saying "go do vipassana," but always "go do jhana." And they never equate the word vipassana with any mindfulness techniques. In the few instances where they do mention vipassana, they almost always pair it with samatha -- not as two alternative methods, but as two qualities of mind that a person may "gain" or "be endowed with," and that should be developed together.”
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/onetool.html

Further, one of the important things Thanissaro Bhikkhu left out in his essay is when the Buddha referred to the practice of a meditation methodology he ALWAYS called it ‘sati’ not ‘samatha,’ not ‘jhana’ nor ‘vipassana.’  Further, know that when Thanissaro Bhikkhu and other translators of Asian literature use the term ‘concentration’ it is ALWAYS a translation for the terms ‘samatha,’ ‘jhana’ or ‘samadhi.’

One should also realize that Vipassana is not part of the Noble Eightfold Path, where as jhana is the Buddha’s very definition of the 8th fold. Vipassana is not on the list of the Seven Factors of Enlightenment, however, jhana (as samadhi) is. And, the 8 liberations are all stages of jhana and samadhi; whereas vipassana is not one of the liberations.

Best regards, Jhananda

[Morning Dew]

Good man TomThumb 

I feel exactly the same as you and this morning I actualy decided to take a walk away from this forum since it is fueling my own thoughts instead of calming them. There is too much separation going on here and no one except you puts it the nice way, the awake way 
Good man TomThumb 

@ Jhananda, I think TomThumb means to walk away from this discussion between "titans" which is bringing in more damage than good.

I think that we should all respect each others perspective (whether we agree or not) and just walk away. Where no one tries to get the last word in… I mean “walk away” from this thread, not the forum.

I suggest that you Matthew and you Jhananda meet over Skype and talk it over  what say you? if you dare  this would spare the rest of us who are just beggining with all this (now more and more confusing) "my meditation is better than your meditation" nonsense stuff 

I am going to remain on this forum, then I will just remain on this thread, and keep my Ecstatic Buddhist discourse in one place. However, those who lack restraint are certainly welcome to restrain themselves from posting offensive comments to this thread.

I totaly agree  If there is one thing meditators are to avoid creating it is CONFLICT, of any kind 

I would like to aks Matthew kindly to clean up the irelevant posts into another thread called Forum Issues or such and leave this thread clean to Jhananda and his work PLEASE  Most of us did create a huge mess in here, whether we are right or wrong    and such mess can be missleading from what Jhananda is talking about.
You can leave a link to this new thread in here for those interested of course.

I wish you all to remain mentaly relaxed  we can not make people change nor should we (who in here Knows The Truth) We can give them a friendly support by being aware of our mental actions, avoiding to create more suffering around us by jumping into "who knows better" debates, no matter what.

 

[convivium]

the mindfulness and investigation of phenomena enlightenment factors is vipassana. vipassana is a blanket term for satipatthana, non-proliferation, etc.

[mik1e]

Matthew,

You said that long dispute about Goenka's technique has taught you something. So why to trigger the same backflash again? You cannot neither convince or prove Svadhisdhana anything, until (s)he comes to it by herself/himself. So, let the time to work for you! It will take not too much -- just about 40-50 thousand years. So, accept the world as it is, and better think why you are so involved in this dispute, why you cannot keep silence when you read "provoking" messages. This is your benefit -- so take it!

[Jhananda]

the mindfulness and investigation of phenomena enlightenment factors is vipassana. vipassana is a blanket term for satipatthana, non-proliferation, etc.

My point friends, is I am not at all interested in arguing or even debating, I am simply presenting the dhamma as I experience it in my meditation and read it in its original Pali.  Thus, I find no support in the suttas, nor in my meditations, for conflating vipassana (insight) with satipatthana (the objects of mindfulness), because it is not in the suttas.  If it is not in the suttas, then why should we believe the Buddha taught it that way?  And, I find conflating vipassana with satipatthana, only leads to confusion, because vipassana is one of the fruits of attainment, whereas satipatthana is a practice model that leads to such fruit.  Confusing practice with attainment only leads to confusion.

Best regards, Jhananda

[mik1e]

Jhananda,

Many guys speak only in terms of Suttas and use them as a stick to beat each other. But Buddha taught not only Suttas (which are mainly intended for peasants and layman), but Tantras, too. So, from the layman point of view, achieving jhana may be great accomplishment, but if one wants to move to really high states, (s)he has to work on Tantra level, does not matter how to name it. And for that work vipassana technique (i.e. not just insight, but clear seeing the world as it is) is a "must have" instrument.

For this reason there will be no mention of vipassana in Suttas -- they are not intended for those who would need this state. And I am not sure that we find "pure" mention of vipassana state in tantras -- like we won't find multiplication table in a calculus textbook. I would say that vipassana as separate technique appeared due to necessity to formally teach those who moved to the Tantra level.

So, I don't think that there is any need to "prove" anything -- everybody in this thread is more or less right, but from different point of view.

[Matthew]

I have said what I have to say about this "dispute".

Matthew

[Jhananda]

Out-of-Body Experience, OOBE
Further discussion of this subject can be found in the following essay: Rapture in Buddhism, Manomaya, the "mind-made body." The Buddha’s Discourses on the Astral Body and Out-of-Body (OOB) experiences

[Jhananda]

Understanding Insight, Vipassana Meditation
Further discussion of this subject can be found in the following essay: Dispelling Common Misconceptions Regarding Insight (vipassana) and Absorption (Jhana/dhyana)

[Matthew]

Jhananda,

I want to ask a favour.

Posting your informative video's on the site in multiple locations is not helpful to the server load.

I've made a Video Library just for you and made you moderator of it. Any comments you don't like you can remove, etc. Would you mind posting your video's there and linking to the post when referencing a video? It would be much appreciated.

Matthew

[Jhananda]

Thanks, Matthew I would be very glad to oblige you and accept your kind generosity.  I may have to ask you a few questions how to do what you request, but we will leave that for later when I encounter those questions.

Best regards, Jhananda

[Jhananda]

Samatha and Vipassana Meditation
Further discussion of this subject can be found in the following essays:
Dispelling Common Misconceptions Regarding Insight (vipassana) and Absorption (Jhana/dhyana)

Understanding Insight and Revelation

[Jhananda]

Practice verses Attainment, Magga vs Phala
Making a distinction between the practice of leading a contemplative life and where it leads, which is the attainment various fruit.
Practice verses Attainment, Magga vs Phala

[Matthew]

Thank-you TT, for posting a reasonable response.  However, if we abandon this thread, then, since I started this thread to post my videos and express my insights and attainments, then you are asking me to abandon my work on this forum, because I have found if I post my understanding of the dhamma on any other thread on this forum I am going to encounter just as much (if not more) offensive responses.....

Please could you cross reference (quote) these "offensive responses" that you are receiving in "any other thread on this forum". As they are in "any other thread" you post in there must be a large collection of them.

Thank you.

Matthew

[Jhananda]

Thank-you Matthew for the offer of searching through the archives of this forum to show the many ways in which people have expressed offensive comments toward me; however, I am now on a solo wilderness retreat and simply do not have the access to the web, nor the time or inclination to do that work for you.  However, I am sure some of those offensive comments can be found in this thread, unless you have expunged them.

Best regards, Jhananda

[Morning Dew]

However, I am sure some of those offensive comments can be found in this thread, unless you have expunged them.

I deleted all written by me    (joke)

Can't we all be friends even though we look diferently at things 

If meditation practice can't open one's heart to complete compassion towards all life including Jhananda and Matthew  then all this sitting is not worth a single penny 

What say you?

I am now on a solo wilderness retreat

Have a good one 

[Matthew]

Dear Jhananda,

Once again you fail to answer a direct question and turn it around. There is a pattern here.

I hope your retreat experience is very fulfilling. Take your time.

Nothing has been "expunged" from anywhere by me. When you come back here answer this question please. You made the statement, I expect to see the justification.

Matthew

[Matthew]

Can't we all be friends even though we look diferently at things 

If meditation practice can't open one's heart to complete compassion towards all life including Jhananda and Matthew  then all this sitting is not worth a single penny 

What say you?

Morning Dew,

I have suffered an onslaught of unfounded insults by Jhananda in this thread. He says there are insults whenever he posts. These are unfounded accusations.

His lack of respect and grace in dealing with me over this issue is not something I expect from a seasoned meditator. Nor is his refusal to answer any direct question - but always to turn it around and twist it and throw it back. Therefore I wish him to quote the multiple places in multiple threads where he has been insulted.

This will help clear up any confusion that may have arisen.

Warmly,

In the Dhamma,

Matthew

[elliberto]

This will help clear up any confusion that may have arisen.

Sure
Sounds to me that you're hurt and want to prove a point. Not that I blame you btw, but do you really believe it will clear up any confusion? That Jhananda will suddenly say: you're right Matthew my accusations were unfounded, there really weren't any offensive statements beining made towards me I just get offended to easily by critisism.
Not likely, more likely that this arguing will drag on for a few more pages.

[Matthew]

elliberto,

1) I admit I am hurt by Jhananda's behaviour.

2) I do not "just want to prove a point".

3) Jhananda needs to account for himself and stop shifting the blame elsewhere all the time. If he is incapable of doing so then he needs to admit this.

4) I can promise you without any doubt this will not drag on long at all. When Jhananda returns I am sure he will wish to justify the things he has said.

Warmly,

Matthew

[elliberto]

Jhananda needs to account for himself and stop shifting the blame elsewhere all the time. If he is incapable of doing so then he needs to admit this

And Jessica Alba needs to give me a lapdance on my birthdays, doesn't mean it will happen or is likely to happen   

When Jhananda returns I am sure he will wish to justify the things he has said.

Probably in a way you won't agree with, so then you respond, and he responds and so on.
I don't really see the point in that, but I hope I'm wrong.