Author Topic: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism  (Read 40857 times)

Matthew

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2010, 03:59:40 PM »
That's not what you said before Jhananda - you said you were going to delete your account.

Is this what happens when YOUR belief system feels violated?

You have never been unwelcome here, but you showed a lack of maturity in your responses - which, I suspect, is as much behind the myriad splits you have experienced with those in the Buddhist world as any attainments.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

elliberto

Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #51 on: May 22, 2010, 07:16:34 PM »
Glad you're back as well Jhananda!!

Which doesn't imply I agree with everything you say btw, but I like my belief system violated once in a while :D

Jhananda

Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2010, 11:39:21 PM »
It looks like Matthew's belief systems cannot handle my truth, because there is no place in the suttas where one can quote the Buddha having invented a meditation technique that he called 'vipassana.'  Pointing that out sure makes those ever so tall castles in the mind tumble, which puts the weak right into fight-or-flight.

He is correct, though, I did intend to delete my membership, but I could not figure it out.

May those who want enlightenment in this very lifetime have it, but you will have to collapse all of your erroneous belief systems to get there,

Jhananda

Jhananda

Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #53 on: May 23, 2010, 12:00:53 AM »

Matthew

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #54 on: May 23, 2010, 12:22:50 PM »
It looks like Matthew's belief systems cannot handle my truth, because there is no place in the suttas where one can quote the Buddha having invented a meditation technique that he called 'vipassana.'  Pointing that out sure makes those ever so tall castles in the mind tumble, which puts the weak right into fight-or-flight.

You have forgotten our first exchange on this site:

Jhananda,

You will find much of use in the book.

There is, I think, no difference in our understanding here. I too experience that practice leads to attainment. However I have described that attainment elsewhere as the attainment of letting go and not the attainment of accumulations.

It is the letting go and de-constructing of habit that leaves room for the natural flow of energy and the natural way of being to be established in the practitioner.

Shamatha and Vipassana are not two separate practices. Shamatha leads to calm abiding which leads to Jhannas which lead to effective insight. It's a road with a beginning, middle and end. Not two distant towns. Shamatha is impossible with no insight and effective insight is impossible without calm abiding.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew
Well then, Matthew, it sounds like we are on the same page.

Quote
He is correct, though, I did intend to delete my membership, but I could not figure it out.

May those who want enlightenment in this very lifetime have it, but you will have to collapse all of your erroneous belief systems to get there,

You will have to lose your belief system too if you wish freedom in this lifetime. You believe certain things that you do not even know you believe. You have a persecution complex.

You twist everything to fit with this not realising that you have got yourself stuck in a dead end by mindlessly chasing Jhana when this is not the end of the path or fulfilment of the goal but a mere stepping stone.

You have turned it into a millstone round your neck - that you also like to bash others with.

My belief system is not the problem when it comes to handling "your truth". The stumbling block has nothing to do with my "beliefs", whatever you suppose them to be, but everything to do with "your truth" as you call your beliefs.

Matthew
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 02:56:42 PM by The Irreverent Buddhist »
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #55 on: May 23, 2010, 12:25:36 PM »
Oh and you are welcome to stay, but if you still wish to delete your account then click on profile and at the bottom left there is a link "delete account".

I'm surprised such an accomplished master and know it all couldn't find that :D
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Morning Dew

Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #56 on: May 23, 2010, 06:16:13 PM »
OK kids enough for today, off to bed with you now ta ta  ;D

Jhananda

Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #57 on: May 23, 2010, 11:40:40 PM »
As I said, pointing out the falsehoods we live by sure makes those ever so tall castles in the mind, tumble, which puts the weak right into fight-or-flight.  Since the Buddha defined the 8th fold of his Noble Eightfold Path in terms of jhana, then we can conclude any person who rejects jhana at any time, or assumes it can be put aside, is by definition not a Buddhist.

I find one of the most fundamental of confusions in the Buddhist teaching community is not understanding what fruit (phala) is.
Fruit (Phala) of the contemplative life
Further discussion of this subject can be found in the following essays: The Fruit (Phala) of the Contemplative Life

Morning Dew

Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2010, 08:22:37 AM »
Quote
then we can conclude any person who rejects jhana at any time, or assumes it can be put aside, is by definition not a Buddhist.

Did Buddha call him self a Buddhist ?? Calling your self anything will only create separation I feel. I see what you say and there probably is lots in your words, but you simply do not make me follow you because of your "subtle" agression I feel. You are slighlty pissed off I feel my friend  :) and I wish you to soften up a bit :-)

Quote
which puts the weak right into fight-or-flight.

Are you looking down at those "weak" (vs. strong) ? Why so much separation in your words? How come you have no compassion for those who are weak and try to show them the Path in a more kind and patiente way ?  :)

I don't know whether you did read this short book but if not please do so it might give you some good;
Freedom From The Known

Another question :-) did Buddha himself write those Suttas? (Did Jesus write the Bible? )

Remain relaxed  :)

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2010, 08:37:53 AM »
As I said, pointing out the falsehoods we live by sure makes those ever so tall castles in the mind, tumble, which puts the weak right into fight-or-flight.

So what you are doing now is not aggression fuelled fighting?

And deleting your account is not going into flight mode?

You are one of the "weak" by your own definition. This is what you fail to see.

Repeating yourself ad infinitum does not move one forwards or create strength. Every sideways arrow you shoot at me could rightly be targeted at your own clinging to view.

Please do not delete your account, Jhananda. You have always been made welcome here and the ways this place challenges you are ways you need to be challenged imho.

Warmly,

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

dharmastuff

Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #60 on: May 24, 2010, 08:42:17 AM »
Yes, Jhananda has been meditating for 40 years, which is great for him!
No, he's not the only one. There are many accomplished meditators in our day and age who have arrived at the same fruits ('phala') (here you go Jhananda, you like to say phala all the time, me too :) ) as the meditators 2500 years ago have also reached. This is great for us! We can all train our minds to reach the path and fruit consciousness (magga and phala) and also train in the Jhanas. Great for us.

Enlightened people still carry around their personalities, and so does Jhananda (Whether he is partly enlightened or not, it doesn't matter from this point of view). And his quirk is that he thinks he really knows while others do not. Not being able to discuss such things without taking a position of 'know it all' is a clear indication that one is lacking certain skills that Jhananda seems not to care about to develop. His own right, he likes this position of an outcast who knows it all.
So keep in mind that you're not going to be the one who 'changes his mind' so to speak.

Matthew, being a long-time meditation practitioner does never take the position of 'I know it all while others do not'. Whether he is partly enlightened, fully enlightened, or not, he posses excellent communication skills, which is very valuable for discussions, social interaction and teaching.
I think you made your point very nicely Matthew.

elliberto

Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #61 on: May 24, 2010, 09:29:14 AM »
Was recently, on my way to work, listening to a lecture, which might be relevant for this thread.
At least it is relevant for me  ;)
It's about the Brahmajala Sutta which discusses what the Buddha has to say about views in general, ALL views (so also buddhist views).
I found it to be a very refreshing/practical way to look at views because it shifts emphasis away from looking at views in terms of right/wrong to how they cause suffering and makes you more aware of this process.
So enjoy:

http://www.audiodharma.org/mp3files/2010-04-30_AndreaFella_SuttaStudy-BrahmajalaSutta_Pt1.mp3
http://www.audiodharma.org/mp3files/2010-04-30_AndreaFella_SuttaStudy-BrahmajalaSutta_Pt2.mp3
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 09:33:50 AM by elliberto »

Jhananda

Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #62 on: May 24, 2010, 01:48:02 PM »
Quote
then we can conclude any person who rejects jhana at any time, or assumes it can be put aside, is by definition not a Buddhist.

Did Buddha call him self a Buddhist ?? Calling your self anything will only create separation I feel. I see what you say and there probably is lots in your words, but you simply do not make me follow you because of your "subtle" agression I feel. You are slighlty pissed off I feel my friend  :) and I wish you to soften up a bit :-)

Quote
which puts the weak right into fight-or-flight.

Are you looking down at those "weak" (vs. strong) ? Why so much separation in your words? How come you have no compassion for those who are weak and try to show them the Path in a more kind and patiente way ?  :)

I don't know whether you did read this short book but if not please do so it might give you some good;
Freedom From The Known

Another question :-) did Buddha himself write those Suttas? (Did Jesus write the Bible? )

Remain relaxed  :)

As I said, pointing out the falsehoods we live by sure makes those ever so tall castles in the mind, tumble, which puts the weak right into fight-or-flight.
As I said, pointing out the falsehoods we live by sure makes those ever so tall castles in the mind, tumble, which puts the weak right into fight-or-flight.

So what you are doing now is not aggression fuelled fighting?

And deleting your account is not going into flight mode?

You are one of the "weak" by your own definition. This is what you fail to see.

Repeating yourself ad infinitum does not move one forwards or create strength. Every sideways arrow you shoot at me could rightly be targeted at your own clinging to view.

Please do not delete your account, Jhananda. You have always been made welcome here and the ways this place challenges you are ways you need to be challenged imho.

Warmly,

Matthew
So, how does what you write in response to what I say and write make me feel welcome here?

Morning Dew

Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #63 on: May 25, 2010, 07:54:00 AM »
Quote
So, how does what you write in response to what I say and write make me feel welcome here?

I apologise Jhananda deeply and sorry for not being more wise in choosing my words, I trully am sorry. But how come you cling to someone like me (my words) to someone who just started recently to meditate who still knows not of what meditation realy is, someone like me who is living in a illusion in a totaly conditioned world. Don't you see, you fail to see that because you enter into this conversation with emotions.
After 40 years of meditation you should look at me with wise eyes like at a new born child who just started to open it's eyes and not taking me so seriously  :)   I am spiritually imature in comparison to you I would say, I mean 40 yeasr of meditation practice  :)

About Jhanas, I started reading the Beyond Mindfulness but I stopped after I reached the half. It felt wrong to intelectualise about Jhanas before experiancing it. I might end up wanting it too much and by wanting something badly I might very likely miss it. Meditation is about giving up  :)  but you know this I am sure.
I do not agree one should go too much into Jhana details and preach about it all the time, it tend to become the mind game for someone like me, who just started with all this.
My Qigong sifu doesn't want to tell what and how he feels when he meditates. He does say with a warm smile that it is special but he doesn't want us to try and copy him (mind games) but experiance it for our selves.

People will follow you (and I feel you can teach us alot) if you do not want them to do so  :) Be the light  in the darkness rather then "trying to make a stand for the sake of being right" (I feel you being right and I feel you entered a special state of mind but give up of trying to make Buddhism Right  :)  )

I wish you lots of peace and I extand a friendly hand-shake towards you  :)

It was not my intention to make you feel unwelcome.

Remain relaxed  :)

By the way Jhananda, you did not answer my question, did you read this book called Freedom From The Known and what do you feel about it? Thanks  :)

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #64 on: May 25, 2010, 11:00:31 AM »
.....

Please do not delete your account, Jhananda. You have always been made welcome here and the ways this place challenges you are ways you need to be challenged imho.

Warmly,

Matthew
So, how does what you write in response to what I say and write make me feel welcome here?

I can't dictate your reactions or feelings in response to what I say and do. When I asked you not to delete your account I meant what I said.

You are welcome here. There is not more to say. When you contradict yourself you will find yourself challenged, that is not to say you are unwelcome, merely that questioning is part of the process. You have taken certain challenges to your orthodoxy to mean you are unwelcome but this is your interpretation and it seems to be very "black and white" thinking.

Warmly,

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Jhananda

Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #65 on: May 25, 2010, 12:57:30 PM »
When we think someone else offers black and white thinking or emotional reactions, or believe we have found contradictions to our offensive behavior, in most cases we are just making a projection.  If any of you want an open dialog on Buddhist thought, then I would suggest that you consider a more accepting reaction to ideas that are backed up with copious canonical references and decades of daily contemplative practice.
Kriya, automatic bodily movements during meditation
Further discussion of this subject can be found in the following essays: Charismatic Movement, Kriyas

Matthew

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #66 on: May 25, 2010, 09:38:31 PM »
... too often when I express the insights and attainments of nearly 40 years of daily meditation brings out a lot of unpleasant reactions from those who feel their belief systems are being violated, so I tend to keep a low profile and just express myself with little debating.

When we think someone else offers black and white thinking or emotional reactions, or believe we have found contradictions to our offensive behavior, in most cases we are just making a projection.

So this applies to everyone but you Jhananda? Correct?

Sure ... yeah ... OK ...

You see with every post now you contradict something you said earlier. And you don't answer substantive questions.

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Jhananda

Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #67 on: May 26, 2010, 01:14:33 AM »
... too often when I express the insights and attainments of nearly 40 years of daily meditation brings out a lot of unpleasant reactions from those who feel their belief systems are being violated, so I tend to keep a low profile and just express myself with little debating.

When we think someone else offers black and white thinking or emotional reactions, or believe we have found contradictions to our offensive behavior, in most cases we are just making a projection.

So this applies to everyone but you Jhananda? Correct?

Sure ... yeah ... OK ...

You see with every post now you contradict something you said earlier. And you don't answer substantive questions.

Matthew
Well, Matthew, it appears you are still being hostile.  I am sorry that your forum is not more welcoming to a rigorous contemplative and scholar of Buddhism, but then as you are demonstrating, when those castles in the sky start burning, the weak go into fight-or-flight.

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #68 on: May 26, 2010, 02:43:01 AM »
Jhananda,

No castles are threatened at all and I am not in fight or flight mode (which is not an option as I am responsible for the existence of this space).

After all, you are the one who, after one misunderstanding, said he was deleting his account. Is that not flight mode? Also you repeatedly throw passive aggressive insults at me in the form of pseudo-dhamma, based on your beliefs and assumptions. Is this not fight mode? And it's all based on nothing.

After 40 years of Jhana practice, if you're not a Buddha, you might as well be a Heroin addict. You're stuck in Jhana, Jhananda. Look at the name you chose. The Buddha warned against attachment to all Dhammas.

Seriously, I have always enjoyed your input here but I wish you would get off your high horse and get over this now.

You have been made most welcome. Where I have been aggressive, in this thread, it is my response to your own. However, please do not continue to act like you're right, whilst masquerading your own aggression, desire and ignorance.

Yours,

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

joy

  • Member
Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #69 on: May 26, 2010, 04:56:56 AM »

"The difference between a response and a reaction:
• A reaction is habitual, conditioned and automatic: unthought and immediate.
• A response is chosen from recognised and considered options: contemplated, which takes time".

Even we could be selective in responding! [Upekkha!]
Joy

Jhananda

Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #70 on: May 26, 2010, 05:15:01 AM »
Matthew, instead of continuing your Ad Hominem logical errors, you could just provide us with one sutta quote where the Buddha described a meditation technique that he called ‘vipassana.’  Also, while you are at it, you could also provide us with a sutta quote that states addiction to jhana was considered a bad thing.

Quote
Latukikopama Sutta, MN 66
"...he enters and abides in the fourth absorption (jhana): which is purity of equanimity and mindfulness, with neither pleasure nor pain. This is called renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued, it is not to be feared.

convivium

Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #71 on: May 26, 2010, 06:33:46 AM »
jhana can be the last thing we let go of but we have to let go of it. otherwise we can't reach arahatship.

joy

  • Member
Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #72 on: May 26, 2010, 07:11:32 AM »
Question :     So one should not try to perpetuate blissful or ecstatic states?

Ramana Maharshi :
The final obstacle in meditation is ecstasy; you feel great bliss and happiness and want to stay in that ecstasy. Do not yield to it but pass on to the next stage which is great calm. The calm is higher than ecstasy and it merges into samadhi. Successful samadhi causes a waking sleep state to supervene. In that state you know that you are always consciousness, for consciousness is your nature. Actually, one is always in samadhi but one does not know it. To know it all one has to do is to remove the obstacles.

Joy

convivium

Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #73 on: May 26, 2010, 07:50:28 AM »
Quote
There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven.

Matthew

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #74 on: May 26, 2010, 10:52:01 AM »
Matthew, instead of continuing your Ad Hominem logical errors, you could just provide us with one sutta quote where the Buddha described a meditation technique called Vipassana ..

As stated above, and as I have reiterated repeatedly here since long before you were a part of the community, to my knowledge and experience insight arises from a firm base of Shamatha practice. I have been telling people this for years Jhananda.

Your premise for the above request is incorrect.

Matthew
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 11:04:39 AM by The Irreverent Buddhist »
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

 

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