Author Topic: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism  (Read 35032 times)


sublime

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2010, 10:41:58 AM »
Thanks Jhanada.. appreciate this. This helps put in perspective my experiences so far.

It took me a while to stop engaging in the hallucinations, till I was able to kind of observe them from the outside looking in, without getting caught up in a mental commentary of them. After some more time they totally stopped... so now it is just certain shades of blackness and some subtle patterns. Im not sure if I suppressed the visuals or if this is the natural progression.. do you have any comments on this?

Thanks

Sublime

Jhananda

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2010, 06:20:21 PM »
Hello Sublime, it is possible that you have dropped below the hallucinations to a deeper level of absorption.  Do you feel deeper now?  How long do your meditations tend to last?  Do you find you meditate often or infrequently?

Best, Jhananda


Jhananda

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2010, 08:46:00 PM »

Morning Dew

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2010, 08:14:52 AM »
Hi Jhananda,

you make me remember something. During my 6 month of daily Ki-breathing practice of 30 minutes I would start experiancing ... well ... lets say Emptiness  :) my thoguhts would disapear, total silence, dark empty but huge space inside of my own body. Even thoguh I was still doing the breathing I felt like that was not me doing that breathing, but I was aware of it.
Nothing spectacular just very comfortable feeling.
If I recolect correctly this would happen at the end of my session (so between 20-30 minutes) and would last short because I would kind of try to keep the sensation. Once I did that the feeling disapeared.
I came into this same stage just a few times.

Any thoughts?

Thanks for the videos!  :)

Jhananda

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2010, 04:06:09 PM »
Hello Morning Dew, when we are engaged in a religious activity of any kind and we experience pleasant and enjoyable feelings, then by definition we have arrived at the second jhana.  Most religions create a ritual environment in which many people experience pleasant and enjoyable feelings; therefore, most religions have access to the first jhana. 

When one experiences cessation of thoughts, which tends to produce a feeling of emptiness, which tends to be experienced as a non-dual experience, then we can say, by definition, this is the second jhana. Few religions; however, produce empty and expansive feelings in their followers through religious activity.  And, followers often feel threatened by feelings of emptiness and expansiveness.  Those who experience feelings of emptiness and expansiveness from their religious activity tend to be contemplatives.  Thus, to consistently arrive at the second jhana one has to be a contemplative.

Those who experience deeper levels of absorption are almost always rigorous contemplatives.  Therefore, those who wish to experience the deeper levels of absorption, and reap the rewards of deeper levels of liberation, must therefore be rigorous contemplatives.

Best regards, Jhananda

soma

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2010, 06:40:13 PM »
Hello Morning Dew, when we are engaged in a religious activity of any kind and we experience pleasant and enjoyable feelings, then by definition we have arrived at the second jhana.  Most religions create a ritual environment in which many people experience pleasant and enjoyable feelings; therefore, most religions have access to the first jhana.

I guess you meant '...we have arrived at the first jhana' ?
I find it hard to tell the difference between first and second jhana.
Often when I sit I experience jhana and I just assume it is the first jhana because there is only one sharp shift in consciousness so to speak but if what you say above is correct then it is for sure the second jhana that I experience
I have read your various articles on jhana but still find it hard to differentiate the lower jhanas.
When I was on retreat I possibly experienced fourth jhana but 'missed' the lower jhanas. Is it possible to jump over some jhanas or did I not notice them because of lack of experience ?
It might not be the most important thing but it is good to know where one is in ones 'progress'.

Jhananda

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2010, 01:47:20 AM »
Yes, thank-you soma, I meant to write the 'first' jhana' where I had written the 'second jhana.'

To me it is not hard to differentiate the various jhanas, as long as I realize just about everyone who has written on the topic had no idea what they were writing about.  The problem with religion is most people writing on the subject have no clue, but they want everyone to think they are enlightened.


The second jhana is defined by the cessation of thought.  So, when you find thought has stopped, then you are in the second jhana.  How hard is that?

upekkha

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2010, 01:08:58 PM »
I'm sorry to say this Jeff but from reading what you write on your website it is becoming clearer and clearer that you have become addicted to Jhana and are not doing Vipassana at all, just cultivating subtle states of mind.

It was sad to read that 'you dont care about anything in life, your spouse' etc.
Do you work? Have fun? Have friends? Go out sometimes?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 01:11:59 PM by upekkha »

unprevadedrapture

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2010, 04:54:33 PM »
You have FRIENDS?? :o

upekkha

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2010, 06:51:22 PM »
I'm sorry but his website had something where he was going on about how he cares about no one, nothing, not a spouse and not himself etc.. which seems kind of disconnected from life to me.

I guess I could change that to "Enjoy the company of others?"

Morning Dew

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2010, 07:05:17 PM »
upekkha my friend do not be so judgemental please. If you feel that Jhananda is on a wrong path send him your Loving-Friendliness instead rather than slaping the man.

Did Buddha care about his wife or kid?

Remain relaxed  :)

unprevadedrapture

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2010, 07:28:59 PM »
you believe in OPINIONS?? :o

Jhananda

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2010, 12:22:50 AM »
I'm sorry to say this Jeff but from reading what you write on your website it is becoming clearer and clearer that you have become addicted to Jhana and are not doing Vipassana at all, just cultivating subtle states of mind.

It was sad to read that 'you dont care about anything in life, your spouse' etc.
Do you work? Have fun? Have friends? Go out sometimes?
upekkha, the problem with religion in general, including Buddhism, is there is a mainstream form of each religion, where those who are so arrogant to believe that they are the only ones who understand it, can build tiny fortresses, where they regularly assassinate anyone who disagrees with them.  The unfortunate thing about mainstream religion, such as yours is they rarely reflect the teachings of the progenitor that they obsess over.

So, I do not agree with you and your teacher, and in your mind that makes me wrong.  Now, that is OK with me, but why do you feel you have to protect others from being infected by my opinions?  This need to protect others from me is precisely what makes mainstream religion so very, very sick.

Instead of picking at one tiny out of context statement that I posted on my website regarding the level of dispassion that is the product of the depth of my attainment of jhana, why don't you instead give us one canonical reference in support of the lies that you accept from your teacher as a given?  For example:  There is no place in the suttas where one can find a quote that supports a belief that the Buddha taught a meditation technique that he called 'vipassana.'

Now, I get that you are launching a character assassination program, because your teacher and his teacher have been teaching lies all along, and you are not man enough to admit it.

By the way, upekkha, it does not appear that you are even aware that the suttas state that upekkha is the product of the third jhana.  It seems you are addicted to your lies and you have not even read the suttas.  But, I will give you a quote from the suttas, since you are unable to back up your lies with a canonical reference.

Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22.22)
(3rd Jhana)
Residing in (viharati) bliss (Pãtiyà), dispassion (viràgà) and equanimity (upekkhako); and with a luminous (sampajàno) joy-filled body (sukha°Ëca kàyena) a noble one (ariya) proclaims a joyful abiding in the equanimity and mindfulness and clarity (upasampajja) of the third ecstasy (jhana).
Translated from the Pali by Jhananda 11-02-06
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/Phala_Nikaya/mahasatipatthanasutta.htm

May you some day understand the value of peer review,

Jhananda


upekkha

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2010, 05:04:39 PM »
Jeff,

You know nothing of my practice, teacher(s) or anything else for that matter, so it is quite silly to try passing judgement on something you have no information about.

I am not launching any character assasination, nor do I want or believe your 'mind' (to use paradoxical language) can be changed about this.

So according to you, one should back up one's opinions (or lies) with canonical reference, as you do so often on your website by using many Pali terms and canonical quotes. good on you Jeff, for being able to back up yourself with canonical reference. You are indeed as good as the religions you like to disparage in regards to that, because they also like to back themselves up with many quotes from their sacred text.

In any case Jeff, I'm sorry if it seems like I was attacking you, I do have respect for your chosen path and life-style, but that part seemed very tough.

In regards to whoever asked: Yes, the Buddha cared about his wife and son. But that's besides the point because even though he was a Buddha, he had his own personality and preferences.

Much respect,
Upekkha.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 05:39:22 PM by upekkha »

upekkha

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2010, 07:08:45 PM »
I think there is much to learn from the stories of Alara the Kalama and Udaka the Ramaputta, who had mastered the seventh and eighth Jhanas but were still unenlightened.

The Buddha said the following in regards to Alara the Kalama who had mastered the Jhanas up to the 7th Jhana:

"This doctrine does not lead to aversion, to abatement and cessation of passion, to quiescence for higher knowledge and full enlightenment nor to nibbāna , the end of sufferings, but only as far as the attainment to the realm of Nothingness. Once there, a long life of 60,000 world cycles follows, and after expiring from there, one reappears in the Kamma existences and goes through the sufferings again. It is not the doctrine of the undying that I am looking for."
Thus becoming indifferent to the practice which led only to the jhanic realm of Nothingness (the seventh jhana, if you count the formless realms as the Jhanas), the Bodhisatta abandoned it and departed from Alara's meditation center."

And he said the following in regards to Udaka the Ramaputta who had mastered the Jhanas up to the 8th Jhana:
"This doctrine does not lead to aversion, to absence of passion nor to quiescence for gaining knowledge, supreme wisdom and nibbāna , but only as far as the realm of Neither Perception nor Non-perception. Once there, a long life of 84,000 world cycles is enjoyed only to come back again to the existence of sensual pleasures and be subjected to much suffering. This is not the doctrine of the Undying that I long for."
Then becoming indifferent to the doctrine which leads only to the realm of Neither Perception nor Non-perception (the eighth jhana if you count the formless realms as Jhanas), he gave it up and departed from Udaka's center."

Once the Buddha had attained arahatship he searched for Alara Kalama and Udaka Ramaputta, only to find them deceased and reborn in the formless brahma worlds. They had missed their chance to become enlightened. The Buddha therefore said "They have suffered a great loss."
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 07:12:38 PM by upekkha »

unprevadedrapture

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2010, 08:05:44 PM »
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/mun/ballad.html
Quote
"...The cause of suffering is attachment & love,
extremely enthralled,
creating new states of being
without wearying.
On the lower level, the stains
are the five strings of sensuality;
on the higher level,
attachment to jhana.
In terms of how these things
   act in the mind:
It's all an affair of being enthralled with sankharas,
enthralled with all that have happened
for a long, long time  —
   seeing them as good,
   nourishing the heart on error,
   making it branch out
   in restlessness distraction.
Smitten by error, with no sense of shame,
enthralled with admiring
whatever it fancies  —
enthralled to the point where it forgets itself
and loses its sense of danger;
enthralled with viewing the faults of others,
upset by their evil,
not seeing its own faults as anything at all.
No matter how great the faults of others,
they can't make us fall into hell.
While our own faults can take us
to the severest hell straightaway,
even if they aren't very defiling at all.
So keep watch on your faults
until it comes naturally.
Avoid those faults
and you're sure to see
   happiness free
   from danger & fear.
When you see your faults clearly
cut them right away.
Don't dawdle or delay
or you'll never be rid of them..."

elliberto

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2010, 08:27:29 PM »
Quote
the problem with religion in general, including Buddhism, is there is a mainstream form of each religion, where those who are so arrogant to believe that they are the only ones who understand it, can build tiny fortresses, where they regularly assassinate anyone who disagrees with them.  The unfortunate thing about mainstream religion, such as yours is they rarely reflect the teachings of the progenitor that they obsess over.

Arent't you doing the same right here and in your posts most of the time?
Seems to me every chance you get you tell how such and such (usually goenka or a theravedan monk) is wrong, because your interpretation of the canon is different from his.
ONLY referring to your website, your articles and youtube clips featuring only you, seems quite egocentric to me as well.
Even though it kind of annoys me, I read what you have to say because I think I can learn a lot from what you have to say.
But it amazes me that you can think that this way of acting can possibly be the fruit of a succesful contemplative life.
It saddens me that this can happen in spite of your obvious knowledge, accomplishments and experience.

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
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  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2010, 08:53:28 PM »
Calm down chaps. Play nice.

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

upekkha

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2010, 10:22:47 PM »
Quoting sources, teachers, suttas, etc, simply shows a lack of personal experience, I think.

If you know something, share it, if you don't, its best to admit that.

But those are just my 2 cents, for those who are very fond of quoting Suttas as ultimate truths or some sort of authority, go ahead :) but don't expect many to take you seriously, because that's like quoting the gospel or the bible or something.

In regards to Jhananda, he's a total Jhana head, which he admits :) (well having a name like that, what do you expect!) which is like being a druggie in a way, one starts preferring Jhana over everything else.. Obviously better than a drug addict, but as the Buddha said.. many aeons of fun and then, BANG! you can be a worm, a cow, a hell-being. not out of Samsara at all! Indeed, Alara Kalama and Udaka Ramaputta suffered a great loss.
Yes, we all know concentration is much fun, but the path is about something BEYOND the Jhanas, nibbana!

I'm pretty sure he's 100% convinced of his "Jhananda the amazing Jhana master who knows better than any other meditation teacher, only he has true mastery of the path and can vouch for it by having amazing super-duper Jhana skills" story.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 10:32:56 PM by upekkha »

unprevadedrapture

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2010, 10:31:39 PM »
who is qualified to teach really? arahats... am i? no... have i read those teachings? yes... are they worth reading? yes... do i care if i'm taken seriously on the internet? no... all on the path should read the words of those who have been there, not pubescent adolescents like me... "there are two ways to spread light, be a candle, or the mirror that reflects it."
this is for you: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/mun/ballad.html

upekkha

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Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2010, 10:34:52 PM »
rapture:
One thing is sharing teachings one finds useful,
another is to use those quotes in arguments, as if they are ultimate truths or authorities.

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Jhananda and Ecstatic Buddhism
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2010, 10:41:36 PM »
..... but the path is about something BEYOND the Jhanas, nibbana!

Very true.

However .. please could you all refrain from unwholesome speech in these discussions.

Bringing personal attacks into the equation does not only harm the other, but harms yourself, and shows a lack of both compassion and equanimity. Hard lessons have been learned here before regarding this, not least by myself.

Thank you,

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~