Author Topic: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?  (Read 65857 times)

torgeir

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2011, 01:23:24 PM »
I'd still like to know what the proper name for the technique is -- what the Burmese Buddhist monks who have been practicing it for centuries call it.

 
How about asking a Burmese monk?

There is a Burmese monk living and practicing in Norway -- of all places. He hails from the same lineage as Goenka and Mother Sayama: that is, the Saya Thet / Ledi Sayadaw lineage.

The Vipassana technique kept alive in Burma for centuries can be traced back to Ledi Sayadaw, the earliest named teacher of Vipassana. Mahasi Sayadaw, Pandita, U Ba Khin, Goenka, Sayama, and many other modern Burmese style meditation teachers can trace their lineage back to the Ledi. Before him, the names are obscure.

Ledi had many student-teachers. He went against tradition and authorized at least one layman to teach Vipassana, as it was--and still is--called in Burma.

This lay-teacher, Saya Thet, was a wealthy farmer, who in turn had many student-teachers. Again going against tradition, he taught Vipassana to many monks, as well as lay-people.

Traditionally in Burma, the monks should be the preservers of the Buddha's teachings. The tradition stated that no monks should learn Dhamma from lay-people, and especially not Vipassana, which in Burma is considered the peak of the Buddha's teaching, the practical Abhidhamma, considered the Buddha's highest teaching.

Ledi Sayadaw's lineage is not a stranger to controversy, having switched back and forth between monks and laity a number of times, and meeting its fair share of criticism over different issues at different times and places. What seems at the surface to be controversial issues surrounding the Vipassana tradition in this day and age on the web and elsewhere, is really nothing but additional amusing anecdotal trivia in the grand scheme.

Some of Saya Thet's students he authorized to teach. One was U Ba Khin. That part of the story is well documented.

Less well known is that one of Saya Thet’s monk-Vipassana-teachers in Burma has a living tradition now extending to Norway.

Why Norway? Well, it is due to the sticky political situation in Burma, and Norwegian sponsored Radio Free Burma through political connections to the Norwegian Nobel-committee, who at one time awarded the Burmese democracy movement leader Aung Sun Syu Kyi the Nobel Peace prize, etc. Norway hosts a number of political refugees. Some of them happen to be Burmese monks. So it is both complicated and straight forward.

Check out a link to a web site dedicated to the Norwegian-Burmese Vipassana-monk. Please bear in mind the google translation is far from perfect, but at least one can glean a rough idea of what he is all about:
Hardcore Vipassana.

If anyone reads the details, they can see he includes Anapana + Body sensations + lots and lots of Metta. He calls it Vipassana.

If there still is any confusion about Vipassana, one can try and contact him and ask directly. He knows.

The teaching of the technique has crossed back and forth between monks and the laity at different times. U Ba Khin understood that Vipassana taught by a buddhist monk would not be accepted in Hindu dominated India, hence Goenka plays a very special role in the proliferation and popularity of this lineage, first in India, and later from there to all around the world.

From the growing popularity of Goenka’s teaching in India, Vipassana significantly proliferated in the west via hippies and backpackers travelling India in the 1970’s. They eventually travelled back home to help establish Vipassana in the west during the 1980’s and 1990’s.

Goenka is now widely respected and revered in ultra-buddhist Burma, also by Burmese monks. There are now 6 Vipassana retreat centers in his style in Burma, and popularity remains high. There is a number of monks sitting nearly every course, and there is also a number of monk assistant teachers. They all call it Vipassana.

They should certainly know.


------------
Original link in Norwegian.

Google translation into English.





« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 02:24:50 PM by torgeir »

ivana

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2011, 06:28:42 PM »
Hi Sangha
I am just back from IMC 10days Vipassana course. I can see different easy at my body. After 10 days my body is changed about 5  kilograms. When I was at Goenka in India I loose my weight. When I came from IMC UK I have five kilograms more. Please see picture of small example of food from  IMC.

Regarding teaching there is huge different with an attitude to students. If you are at Goenka you are afraid that not to be in a meditation hall on time. If you are at IMC they advice you to sleep, if you are tired.

If I compare meditation it is same only with small detail. Goenka try to do some extra feeling sensation  from head to feed as water is poring. But generally it is same.

Notice about nose to Matthew. I asked my teacher if it a notice about nose and he told me there is in Pali language "in front of him".

Take care
Ivana




rideforever

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2011, 07:08:46 PM »
Ah yes,  I can see this course seems to be a very serious and beneficial one for the advanced meditator, and I am booking onto the next one. ;)

yum

Morning Dew

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2011, 08:35:30 PM »
I could do anything for a piece of that Strawberry cake, even to concentrate on the nose if they would ask me to  ;D

Welcome back Ivana  :)

C h e

Vivek

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #54 on: March 15, 2011, 03:45:58 AM »
Wow, is that the food they serve for the course?! Gotta say, IMC rocks! ;)
Let's go beyond this illusion, shall we?

ramelec

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #55 on: March 15, 2011, 08:05:38 AM »
Do they get the money donation from those great food  :D

Matthew

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #56 on: March 15, 2011, 06:56:00 PM »
....
Notice about nose to Matthew. I asked my teacher if it a notice about nose and he told me there is in Pali language "in front of him".
.....

Of course he said that, he has been raised in a confused tradition - he is referring to this phrase: "Putting mindfulness to the fore, .....".

Now what makes more sense to you as a meditator:

1) "Putting mindfulness to the fore" means paying attention to your nose; or

2) "Putting mindfulness to the fore" means establishing yourself in mindfulness (i.e. consciously bringing it to the front of your experience/awareness).

?

Had the Buddha meant "nose" he would have used the word "nose". The Buddha used metaphor a lot but if he wanted to say nose he would have said it, not "in front of him" because he did not use metaphor superfluously and he used it to clarify and not to confuse. To refer to the nose other than by using it's name is not rational as it only leads to confusion. Not anywhere in the Suttas, except where he is discussing the sense of smell and the nose as the organ of cognition of smells, does the Buddha refer to noses.

Warmly,

Matthew
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 07:00:23 PM by Matthew »
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Morning Dew

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #57 on: March 15, 2011, 07:52:39 PM »
Quote
Not anywhere in the Suttas, except where he is discussing the sense of smell and the nose as the organ of cognition of smells, does the Buddha refer to noses.


Fasten your seat belts here comes the NOSE again  ;D ;D ;D

Just joking just joking!

I agree that it doesnt matter what the object of observation is only that it is observed mindfully and not by FOCUSING on it as like burning a hole in the NOSE with forced concentration  ;D 

The reason I felt something missing in Ki-breathing was that in Ki-breathing one focuses on the lower Tanden and by creating this fabrication one misses to REALISE the actual trouble maker  ;)  the SELF!

Che

ivana

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #58 on: March 15, 2011, 08:43:16 PM »
Dear Mathew and Che
I wanted to do something for good but it seems I did more harm. I made effort to ask my teacher and it is all. The most important if method of awareness of breathing around the nostrils and on the upper lip is a good technique for well being of people.
Take care
Ivana

Morning Dew

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #59 on: March 15, 2011, 09:21:32 PM »
Quote
I wanted to do something for good but it seems I did more harm

You did no harm Ivana  :)  and no harm was felt  :) I feel we all talk about the same thing just a little different  :)

Friendly Che

Matthew

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #60 on: March 16, 2011, 09:17:58 AM »
Ivana,

You did no harm. It does interest me whether you think 1) or 2) is the more clear explanation of "putting mindfulness to the fore"? (fore means front).

Warmly,

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

nibs

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #61 on: March 16, 2011, 11:37:35 AM »
The reason I felt something missing in Ki-breathing was that in Ki-breathing one focuses on the lower Tanden and by creating this fabrication one misses to REALISE the actual trouble maker  ;)  the SELF!

Hi Che,

What is "the SELF" in your experience?

nibs
"Awakening is like taking a satisfying dump." Some anonymous yogi

Morning Dew

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #62 on: March 16, 2011, 12:01:04 PM »
Ignorant/habitual/ culturaly conditioned phenomenon we also call ego, always Atracted to desire and aversion.
A phenomenon thriving in daydreaming, not that happy when the light of awareness shines on it. A sum of chemical reactions causing sensations which can trigger reactions if not mindfuly observed.

It is not the one farting on the cushion that i am sure of :D

C h e

Stefan

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #63 on: March 16, 2011, 02:14:51 PM »
That's a little bit confusing to me. I use "ego" for what Che describes, but I use "self" for the true being, the real existence (without subject). In my understanding, "self" is the truth within us. It is what "I" am when seen as "I" really am ...
Ah, words, they drive me nuts sometimes.
But no words, no forum ...
anicca

nibs

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #64 on: March 16, 2011, 03:09:44 PM »
That's a little bit confusing to me. I use "ego" for what Che describes, but I use "self" for the true being, the real existence (without subject). In my understanding, "self" is the truth within us. It is what "I" am when seen as "I" really am ...
Ah, words, they drive me nuts sometimes.
But no words, no forum ...

If you look close and long enough, there really isn't anything there to call ego, self, true self, this, that, something, anything, nothing or  subject. It is all inferred through more thought which can be seen as just more object. Everything that arises to be directly experienced is objectifiable and everything can be boiled down to the 5 skhandas as objects arising and passing away. There ain't no subject. Any subject is just another inference and thus another object. Objectify the supposed concrete subjective self and you will see that what was thought (inferred) to be the subject, is actually just another object and cannot be a "self" as a"self" is supposed to be the subject , right? This is my subject to change opinion and experience. ;)

http://www.naturalawareness.net/skandhas.pdf

As far as i can see, the sense of (illusory) self is just a bunch of sensations and images being misread as a separate entity and those sensations can be objectified. No-one home but a bundle of habitual tendencies.

Try this little exercise to see it in action:

Stay with an area of sensations/vibrations somewhere on one foot. Stay there for as long as you can with ALL attention focused on those sensations/vibrations WITHOUT the attention shifting elsewhere. I bet you any money you wont be able to. When I do this, I feel these subtle and sometimes almost undetectable shifts of the attention back to the sensations in the middle of the head that seem make up a sense of seperate observing self and then back to the area on the foot.

Pay attention to how this happens. Pay attention to how the attention will flip back and forth between the focus on the area on the foot and then to the centre point of a supposed observing self; being in the head, maybe feeling like it's behind the eyeballs or the eyeballs themselves or a particular space in the head area. The shifting back and forth at a very fast, and at first, undetectable rate, is what is creating the illusion of a sense of "I" being the observer observing the sensations elsewhere in the body. What is really happening is that the sensations that are being read as "I" are being sectioned off from the rest of sensations and only "appearing" to be what is conscious of all the rest of the sensations on the body. It happens too fast for us to figure it out without some Vipassana time where it becomes clearer and clearer what is happening. These sensations Of "I" are just more sensations presenting themselves as more objects. They're just misread as a subject.

This quote by an anonymous advanced yogi explains it better: "The sense of "I" presents as if it were a perspective that sensations take, as if sensations were being funneled towards or through it. But this "funneling towards" perspective is illusory when taken to be something more than phenomenology; "I" is just one more thing that presents itself to awareness, one more thing being looked at. In other words, when the thought "I" arises, what arises is an experience that presents as this kind of funneling of sensations."

Fun little insight games.

nibs
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 03:14:56 PM by nibs »
"Awakening is like taking a satisfying dump." Some anonymous yogi

Stefan

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #65 on: March 16, 2011, 04:01:10 PM »

If you look close and long enough, there really isn't anything there to call ego, self, true self, this, that, something, anything, nothing or  subject. It is all inferred through more thought which can be seen as just more object. Everything that arises to be directly experienced is objectifiable and everything can be boiled down to the 5 skhandas as objects arising and passing away. There ain't no subject. Any subject is just another inference and thus another object. Objectify the supposed concrete subjective self and you will see that what was thought (inferred) to be the subject, is actually just another object and cannot be a "self" as a"self" is supposed to be the subject , right? This is my subject to change opinion and experience.


thanx for your post, it is very interesting. I agree with you.
But if it comes to "there really isn't anything there to call ego, self, true self, this, that, something, anything, nothing or subject" (signed by me), it is always interesting to add: "there really isn't a thing like a cushion to sit on", still we manage to feel comfortable on our cushions while meditating ...  ;D

anyway, my post was not so much about the true nature of "self" and "ego" (the "true nature" is more a verb than a subject as far as I understand it), but I wanted to point out that in a discussion like this, the core-words are used differrently by different posters. If we are discussing stuff that is illusionary, then we shouldn't complicate things by using keywords without description.
Your question to Che (what do you call "self") was very helpful in a practical way ... Che's answer gave me the key to understand what he was talking about ...  ;) ....

Metta!
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 04:03:43 PM by stefan »
anicca

rideforever

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #66 on: March 16, 2011, 04:20:52 PM »
Hey, I was just thinking about the skandhas yesterday (I'm reading the Heart Sutra - the five heaps are empty etc... - by Osho of course), and I was wondering how we come to be in the situation in the first place.

I was thinking that our awareness is naked, empty of anything, and it finds itself within a process we call man (the process being composed of the sub-processes of the skandhas) ... and the awareness being like a mirror sees all this stuff going on (thought, perception etc...) and thinks oh, I am this process.  An empty mirror reflects these processes and the mirror thinks - oh this must be me.  Because it can't directly see it's nakedness it's emptiness, it mistakes what is being reflected in it as itself.

Wow, that's so crazy.  I can't believe this could be me - I grew up watching hollywood films and thought that was life ... and now I am an empty mirror and nothing else is me.  wtf, feel angry scared worried


chintan

  • Maun
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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #67 on: March 18, 2011, 03:20:40 AM »
When I was at Goenka in India I loose my weight. When I came from IMC UK I have five kilograms more. Please see picture of small example of food from  IMC.

Welcome back Ivana - I myself have been missing from the forum due to too much work, financial year closure. I am really intrigued at the spread on offer - any reason for it? Would have been really interesting if they had two tables one with IMC food and one with the Goenka style food and the practitioners had to choose :).

Metta

ivana

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #68 on: March 18, 2011, 08:16:04 AM »

[/quote]

Welcome back Ivana - I myself have been missing from the forum due to too much work, financial year closure. I am really intrigued at the spread on offer - any reason for it? Would have been really interesting if they had two tables one with IMC food and one with the Goenka style food and the practitioners had to choose :).

Metta
[/quote]
Dear Maun
I asked my teacher at IMC regarding same question. I received reply that Sayagyi U Ba Khin had first question  "How was food?" It could be as Che told "I could do anything for a piece of that Strawberry cake".
Have a fun
Ivana
My opinion a middle way is the good way.

Stefan

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #69 on: March 18, 2011, 08:55:48 AM »


It could be as Che told "I could do anything for a piece of that Strawberry cake".
My opinion a middle way is the good way.


To be honest, to me those cakes don't look like the middle way, but like the whole highway back and forth ...

Metta to you!
anicca

Morning Dew

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #70 on: March 18, 2011, 01:19:21 PM »
Both the Middle Way and less desire for chees cake comes into manifestation from the sitting practice and not from the intelect saying so :)

At this time i would still do anything for that cake :D but this too shall pass ;)

Note! I am at our Vipassanaforum Retreat Center (my summer house) just arrived and planning to make a carrot cake mmmmmm :)

ivana

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #71 on: March 18, 2011, 07:20:23 PM »


It could be as Che told "I could do anything for a piece of that Strawberry cake".
My opinion a middle way is the good way.


To be honest, to me those cakes don't look like the middle way, but like the whole highway back and forth ...

Metta to you!

Stefan I have to agree. Cakes at IMC are not a middle way. During meditation, in my stomach were cakes and in my mind were again cakes and I was upset,  hard to meditate.
Take care
Ivana

NickAWilson

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #72 on: March 21, 2011, 01:36:16 PM »
I presume they had non-sweet food also Ivana?

I'm there next month. Though since my acceptance letter I've not heard anything from them so I'm hoping it's all in hand....


ivana

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #73 on: March 21, 2011, 02:28:21 PM »
I presume they had non-sweet food also Ivana?

I'm there next month. Though since my acceptance letter I've not heard anything from them so I'm hoping it's all in hand....

Hi Nick
There have a lot of different food but no meat. If you recieve an acceptance letter,I think all is OK. I recieved an e-mail as reminder to go 2 days before my start.
Take care
Ivana

NickAWilson

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Re: How does Goenka's method differ from the IMC and Mother Sayama's?
« Reply #74 on: March 21, 2011, 02:43:24 PM »
Brilliant. Thanks Ivana. That puts my mind at rest!
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 09:09:10 PM by Matthew »

 

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