Author Topic: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?  (Read 16260 times)

Matthew

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Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2009, 06:49:37 PM »
I didn't know this forum was about meditation only, considering the name of this section includes the words dhamma and path.

I guess we can't discuss buddhism here...

Stop being black and white in your thinking and acting like a fool. Go and meditate please as previously asked.

We can and do discuss Buddhism here - but not if you are going to stamp your feet and act like a child and use unskilful speech.

First and foremost this place is about practicing meditation - discussions flow from practice experience. Without the experience and until you have a firm meditation practice you do not have anything to say. Simple.

Intellectual discussion, per se, is not conducive to progress on the meditative path, unless one has at least the beginnings of the meditative path. And then confine the discussion to the level you are at - or you will only feed your monkey mind, get frustrated, annoy people, talk shit and, eventually get banned.

In Abbaths defence, I don't think he/she was intentionally being argumentative. It seemed more like Abbath is fustrated at not having a satisfactory answer... and why should someone be satisfyed with an answer that makes no sense to them, I know I wouldn't be. But I understand if this is not the place for such a discussion, seeing as it is a meditation practice forum.

I agree - I think he/she is unintentionally being argumentative which is why he/she needs to stop discussing irrelevant topics and meditate - so that these unintentional, trouble making discussions can end. Until much further down the path than her/his current realisation discussions of rebirth are totally meaningless nonsense and only develop defilements. The antidote is to meditate so that the defilement of starting nonsense conversations is eradicated.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 07:39:20 PM by The Irreverent Buddhist »
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Abbath

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Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2009, 08:12:33 PM »
For karma and rebirth, I had the same reaction that the original poster had, when I first encountered the concept.  In fact, I found that these concepts were in complete contradiction with the concept of non-self. Since I was an atheist, I had lost the idea of the self a long time ago.   For me the self, the ego, has been an still  only is an electro-chemical state of the brain, which changes continually.  Rebirth in that context is  not possible if it implies the survival of the ego.   I cannot subscribe to the fact that one can remember his past lives, be it a human or a buddha.   Maybe I will change, but until I can experiment it first hand, I won't believe.   So instead, I looked at the concept in lights of what I know about this world.   In my conception of the world, rebirth is the passage of matter from time quantum to time quantum.   The here and now, changes continually and since we can only be here and now, the one that was just before now is no more and a new one, a new state of conditioned matter, a new one is here and now.  This is for me, rebirth.   Continuous, death or rebirth.   Karma, is for me the moral relation between causation and effects.  Since I do believe that everything is ultimately connected, I do believe that actions, words, intentions, toughts, etc. have consequences not only on ourselves but on other.   Who knows, something I say may lead to a murder somewhere in the world.   And I do believe that wholesome generates good and unwholesome generates bad.   This I was able to experiment firsthand with people with whom I had problems and who had problems with me.   I practiced compassion meditation toward these people and the relationship changed radically because I was not letting the bad energy being amplified  anymore.  The guy that was an almost an archenemy at work in a few months became a good working relationship.   I somehow stop the round of bad rebirths of these states of mind.   And during meetings, the two groups stopped working in confrontation and started working together as collaborators.   This is how I understand karma,   Moral causation and effect.

Now THAT's a beatiful and perfectly rational interpretation of karma and rebirth.

The problem is that the majority of people in the world interpret them as supernatural. Therefore the majority of people in the world will not even consider meditation because of this link between buddhism and the supernatural foolishness.

That's why I believe it's SO IMPORTANT to get rid of all that nonsense, so that more people can become aware of the benefits of meditation without immediately relating it to something of religious nature.

mik1e

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Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2009, 08:36:22 PM »
Until much further down the path than her/his current realisation discussions of rebirth are totally meaningless nonsense and only develop defilements.

That's what I tried to show by detailed description of practical experience. All "intellectual discussions" of esoteric topics (yoga, Taoism, Buddhism,...), so loved by Europeans, are just time wasting. These things are extremely practical. If you see -- you know and understand. If you do not see -- you just chew words.

Matthew

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Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2009, 08:40:44 PM »
I agree entirely mik1e

Warmly,

Matthew
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Abbath

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Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2009, 09:04:18 PM »
Until much further down the path than her/his current realisation discussions of rebirth are totally meaningless nonsense and only develop defilements.

That's what I tried to show by detailed description of practical experience. All "intellectual discussions" of esoteric topics (yoga, Taoism, Buddhism,...), so loved by Europeans, are just time wasting. These things are extremely practical. If you see -- you know and understand. If you do not see -- you just chew words.

And I thank you a lot for answering my questions ;)

People are usually afraid of discussing their beliefs. They don't want them to be exposed.

It's interesting to notice the similarities between buddhists and christians when asked about their beliefs.

"You have to experience it yourself"

That's the same answer I get from christians when asked for proof of their god.

Anyway I enjoy these type of discussions and don't consider them a waste of time like you all do.

mik1e

  • Guest
Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2009, 09:35:43 PM »
Abbath,

Maybe, some participants of this discussions do speak about their believes, but I spoke as a scientist, not as a religious person. I described the experimentally obtained results and the method using which everybody can check these results and obtain new ones. Now, if you want to disprove my results, you at least should try to reproduce them using the same method. Only when you prove that the method does not work, you can say that the results I have obtained were more the product of my belief than something objective. Now this is yours homework.

If, having got this information, you keep contending that concept of reincarnation is nothing more than religious belief, you will act not as scientist,  but as common ignorant philistine (sorry). This is the level of discussion which cannot be of benefit to anybody who is really interested in objective knowledge.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 10:15:47 PM by mik1e »

poiqwepoi

  • Member
Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2009, 10:48:50 PM »
Abbath,

Maybe, some participants of this discussions do speak about their believes, but I spoke as a scientist, not as a religious person. I described the experimentally obtained results and the method using which everybody can check these results and obtain new ones. Now, if you want to disprove my results, you at least should try to reproduce them using the same method. Only when you prove that the method does not work, you can say that the results I have obtained were more the product of my belief than something objective. Now this is yours homework.

If, having got this information, you keep contending that concept of reincarnation is nothing more than religious belief, you will act not as scientist,  but as common ignorant philistine (sorry). This is the level of discussion which cannot be of benefit to anybody who is really interested in objective knowledge.

Mik1e,

I read your other reply detailing how you experience previous states or lives.   Do you have a limited number of instances of these states or do you have a number of them?   Have you felt states that were coming from other beings like animals, plants, etc.?   Do these representations come with a large number of details like colors, smells, noises etc.?    

If such things are there to see, I am still blind.

I thank you for sharing.

With Metta,

-Eric
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 11:25:47 PM by poiqwepoi »

mik1e

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Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2010, 12:29:23 AM »
poiqwepoi,

Thanks for the questions.

Do you have a limited number of instances of these states or do you have a number of them?  

The number of imprints was great enough (several hundreds, I guess), but definitely not infinite. Since I was interested in erasing the imprints, not in gazing at them and playing with them, I used different techniques, and some of them allowed to work with many imprints at once.

Quote
Have you felt states that were coming from other beings like animals, plants, etc.?

From animals --yes, but not from terrestrial ones. This has its reasons (in my case), but I don't want to discuss them now. If you ask about possibility to reborn as animal, it is quite possible. Many (not all) animals, who live now in towns, were humans in their previous life -- they reborn in the known and convenient environment. But in 2-3 years human states almost totally dissolve, and you see common animal. My cat was a women in previous life. Now she will reborn as animal, and I don't know when she will get the possibility to become a human again.

Quote
Do these representations come with a large number of details like colors, smells, noises etc.?
   

I usually ignore such details. They have nothing to do with the state of consciousness and only distract the attention. What I am usually interested in (and what is much less distorted by interpretation system), are inner feelings and relationships between participants of the situation. This information allows one most quickly to understand the roots of the problem and erase the imprint.

Please pay attention that I am speaking about imprints of previous lives in the context of enlightenment process. From my point of view, the strategy "seek and destroy all imprints and distortions" is the fastest and the most efficient way to achieve the goal (or, more precisely, some part of it, because besides cleaning the energy system you have to develop it, too).

You should understand one thing about previous lives. What you see is the result of interpretation, and you can interpret only in the limits of your actual knowledge. If you don't know the language, you will never speak it. If you don't know calculus, you will not be able to solve a problem, even if you see yourself a mathematician. You should not confuse this with the situation when some subtle being connects to your mind and speaks "through you" (as it takes place in the case of mediums). Medium (like Edgar Keysi) can speak about things which (s)he does not know in the normal state of consciousness.

Since highly advanced practitioners can easily communicate with subtle beings, they can unconsciously use these beings to "recall" previous life, but I would be cautious with respect to such cases. That's why I am skeptic with respect to using "recognition of objects and people" in some Buddhist traditions. A child can merely use his/her contact with subtle being to "recognize" the person or object. This is the sign of high level of the child, but not necessary the proof that this child is really the incarnation of some known historical person.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 08:46:52 AM by mik1e »

Matthew

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Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2010, 05:31:43 AM »
Abbath,

Until much further down the path than her/his current realisation discussions of rebirth are totally meaningless nonsense and only develop defilements.

That's what I tried to show by detailed description of practical experience. All "intellectual discussions" of esoteric topics (yoga, Taoism, Buddhism,...), so loved by Europeans, are just time wasting. These things are extremely practical. If you see -- you know and understand. If you do not see -- you just chew words.

And I thank you a lot for answering my questions ;)

People are usually afraid of discussing their beliefs. They don't want them to be exposed.

It's interesting to notice the similarities between buddhists and christians when asked about their beliefs.

"You have to experience it yourself"

That's the same answer I get from christians when asked for proof of their god.

There is no similarity unless you are talking about Pureland Buddhists who's Cosmology is very theistic and similar to Christians.

Buddhism is not a religion of belief. It's not even a religion really. The Buddha told it straight, warned don't believe, concentrate on what you know.

I did not tell you you have to "experience it to believe" - it I told you a long time back in this thread that you do not know anything about it so why waste time with it? You are also generalising, you have not exposed any of my beliefs or non-beliefs.


Anyway I enjoy these type of discussions and don't consider them a waste of time like you all do.

IT ADDS NOTHING TO YOUR UNDERSTANDING BECAUSE YOU DO NOT MEDITATE/ENOUGH. IT IS A TOTAL WASTE OF TIME. GO SOMEWHERE ELSE TO FIND SUCH DEBATE. IT IS POINTLESS AND MEANINGLESS SPECULATION, PURE ENTERTAINMENT AND NOT CONDUCIVE TO MEDITATION. IT IS DIVISIVE SPEECH.

You have ignored good advice that you need to meditate to experience the main points of Buddhism which emerge from that experience and now you try and insult all Buddhist's with your generalising and rub people's noses in it with your put down comments.

Please stop wasting time by trying to "expose" people's beliefs - which you clearly see as weaknesses. Community is a group who talk. This is not just one more anonymous internet forum for your intellectual enjoyment. If you continue acting like a snotty child with an attitude of superiority this is not the place for you.

You have asked questions about meditation and taken the energy of people who compassionately answered - then you abuse them. You don't actually seem to have any serious intent towards change.

Please refrain from pointless speculation and debate. Do that elsewhere. If you have questions about meditation and practice that's fine. Trying to entertain yourself at the expense of other people's energy won't be accepted here - it DETRACTS from community, is divisive, it is unwholesome.

Matthew
« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 09:53:34 AM by The Irreverent Buddhist »
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joy

  • Member
Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2010, 09:29:18 AM »
He started with:
 “Can meditation help my sex problems?        (24th Dec’09)

Then he demanded:
 “Where’s the evidence for karma, rebirth, and super natural?”  (26th Dec’09)

And found:
 “Contradictions between Buddhism and personal development” (26th Dec’09)


Intellectuals always put forward debates like that.

When can intellectuals able to settle issues among themselves?

Less intellect Wise men always refrain from nourishing Intellectual enjoyment even they prefer crucifiction or bowl of poison instead!

Let us ‘Watch that mind that says, I know so much’
« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 09:39:51 AM by joydip_ppl »
Joy

Matthew

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Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #35 on: January 01, 2010, 09:52:04 AM »
He started with:
 “Can meditation help my sex problems?        (24th Dec’09)

Then he demanded:
 “Where’s the evidence for karma, rebirth, and super natural?”  (26th Dec’09)

And found:
 “Contradictions between Buddhism and personal development” (26th Dec’09)


Intellectuals always put forward debates like that.

When can intellectuals able to settle issues among themselves?


Not often !!! LOL

Less intellect Wise men always refrain from nourishing Intellectual enjoyment even they prefer crucifiction or bowl of poison instead!

Let us ‘Watch that mind that says, I know so much’

Exactly :)
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #36 on: January 01, 2010, 10:24:31 AM »
Abbath,

You will not think yourself to happiness. Act on the good advices you have been given please and establish a calm ground of stable mind in meditation. There is plenty of material here to help you do that. Then you will not be interested in mindless speculation (what you call intellectual debate) - but will ask practical questions of relevance.

Thank you.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew
« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 10:41:15 AM by The Irreverent Buddhist »
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TomThumb

  • Member
Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2010, 01:54:21 PM »
Hi Abbath,

One last post before going on holiday...

I think that Joydip and Matthew are right; specifically:

You will not think yourself to happiness.

I am about as intellectual as you could possibly imagine and have spent the last two decades trying to understand the "how and why" of human existence, essentially using the scientific method. I mean that I did it for a living, I got paid to do it! My experience is that the absolute state of the art of cognitive science, psychology, neuroscience, philosophy and medicine only give us a very rough first order approximation of the fundamental nature of the mind and its relation to the universe. I have found that exploring these questions, while intellectually very interesting and entertaining ultimately leaves one rather dissatisfied and a long way from changing one's own mind and behaviour. Look at medicine. It is better than nothing but not much use at chronic conditions. Take pain for example. Science can do very little to control long term pain but meditation would appear to be effective in reducing the symptoms, i.e., the patients report that they "suffer less". There are scientific studies that would appear to support that argument...

Meditation is most definitely main stream these days. There are lots of scientific studies that appear to support its effectiveness. For example, one of the main forms of therapy for psychological problems, Cognitive Behaviour Therapy has included Mindfulness training as part of its basic approach (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness-based_cognitive_therapy and http://mbct.co.uk). In the UK they are currently undertaking the largest clinical trial of mindfulness for the treatment of clinical depression. This is very exciting stuff!

So, in conclusion: you know my story because you contributed to the thread that I started. I am on the path because I want to see for myself what meditation can offer. I also think about some of the questions that you are arising here but believe deeply that while it is fun to ask these questions, from time to time, and most intellectually stimulating, one will never get an understanding by thinking, only by meditating the answer (sorry, not to be more specific here, but as an absolute meditation beginner, I am quoting what I have read and not summarising what I have experienced first hand). It is a little like the classic Zen questions about the one hand clapping. From what I have read you can never get the answer by thinking about the question because "understanding" requires a different state of reality or perception that can only be reached by meditation. I leave this for some expert to correct me if I have not understood the text correctly...

I think, in super conclusion, that we need to meditate more and think less. I personally am trying to leave my 50 million questions to one side and, as the sport commercial says, "just do it!". Why? because asking so many questions and thinking and thinking and thinking just uses up ones energy and leaves you tired and confused. It would appear to be more effective to use the time and energy to meditate... Hopefully with time it will not be necessary to ask the questions because the answers will be obvious.

That's it, I most certainly am off on holiday now. Will look in at the return...

TT
Before you claim any absolute truth, remember you see only 1% of the electromagnetic spectrum and hear 1% of the acoustic spectrum. 90% of the body’s cells carry their own DNA and are not you. Your body’s atoms are 99.9999999% empty space. Humans have 46 chromosomes, 2 less than the common potato.

mik1e

  • Guest
Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2010, 03:05:29 PM »
I am ... have spent the last two decades trying to understand the "how and why" of human existence, essentially using the scientific method.

Hi TomThumb,

If you are interested, I would suggest to communicate on more professional level about scientific researches of meditation. Since such discussion may be a bit outside from mainstream of this forum, I would suggest to make it either using PM service, or our regular e-mails (which is more preferable for me, since checking gmail box is more convenient :)). I've sent you a PM. My e-mail is in my signature.

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
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  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
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Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2010, 04:16:03 PM »
I am ... have spent the last two decades trying to understand the "how and why" of human existence, essentially using the scientific method.


Hi TomThumb,

If you are interested, I would suggest to communicate on more professional level about scientific researches of meditation. Since such discussion may be a bit outside from mainstream of this forum, I would suggest to make it either using PM service, or our regular e-mails (which is more preferable for me, since checking gmail box is more convenient :)). I've sent you a PM. My e-mail is in my signature.

I think there are people who would be interested in joining this - I for one would like to see it discussed on the forums.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Abbath

  • Guest
Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #40 on: January 01, 2010, 04:16:14 PM »
He started with:
 “Can meditation help my sex problems?        (24th Dec’09)

Then he demanded:
 “Where’s the evidence for karma, rebirth, and super natural?”  (26th Dec’09)

And found:
 “Contradictions between Buddhism and personal development” (26th Dec’09)


Intellectuals always put forward debates like that.

Are you saying it was wrong to ask those questions?

If it was, why didn't those threads get closed immediately?

The problem is not intellectual debate, the problem is that you guys got offended when I attacked the idea of rebirth and karma.

I didn't see anyone complaining in the "Contradictions between buddhism and personal development" thread, a purely intellectual one.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 04:17:39 PM by Abbath »

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #41 on: January 01, 2010, 04:16:47 PM »
I am ... have spent the last two decades trying to understand the "how and why" of human existence, essentially using the scientific method.


Hi TomThumb,

If you are interested, I would suggest to communicate on more professional level about scientific researches of meditation. Since such discussion may be a bit outside from mainstream of this forum, I would suggest to make it either using PM service, or our regular e-mails (which is more preferable for me, since checking gmail box is more convenient :)). I've sent you a PM. My e-mail is in my signature.


I think there are people who would be interested in joining this - I for one would like to see it discussed on the forums. It is a subject area with which I have some familiarity.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew
« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 04:17:12 PM by The Irreverent Buddhist »
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #42 on: January 01, 2010, 04:41:19 PM »

1) Are you saying it was wrong to ask those questions?

2) If it was, why didn't those threads get closed immediately?

3) The problem is not intellectual debate, the problem is that you guys got offended when I attacked the idea of rebirth and karma.

4) I didn't see anyone complaining in the "Contradictions between buddhism and personal development" thread, a purely intellectual one.

1) It is not wrong to ask any genuine question.

2) See above.

3) The problem is not intellectual debate, you are right this far. Intellectual debate BASED ON PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE is highly valued here and was so in the Buddha's Sangha too. You are incorrect in your analysis of the problem. Because you have no idea EXPERIENTIALLY due to not paying attention to the compassionate advices given to you in your first questions and acting upon them, you then asked a question that was all about having an argument with people and having the chance to put them down. Attacking beliefs is not acceptable behaviour here. Discussing beliefs in a rational way is fine but attacking them is motivated by deeply unconscious hatred. Underneath it all you hate yourself which is why you are such a vain, narcissistic and materialistic person. This question was asked to inflame argument with people you need to feel intellectually superior to in order to compensate for how much you hate yourself inside and feel inferior as a person - on an unconscious level.

With compassion for your incredible suffering that results from this, people have given their energy and their time to try and assist you out of suffering. Your response was far from intellectual. It became pure mud slinging and name calling. This is known as "unwholesome speech". It is not accepted here. You need to think about the people the other side of the screen when you write.

4) This was not a purely intellectual thread - it gave the opportunity to express some understanding gained by more experienced meditators which if you read it again and PUT INTO PRACTICE you will benefit from. Therefore not "purely intellectual".

You have steadfastly refused, it seems, to actually practice meditation for a while as instructed and advised by the helpful people on this site. If you do then you won't hate yourself or need to get angry or live so much in your head when you next ask a question. Life will have moved on for you.

Is some small part of your mind conscious enough of the truth of this to stop you wasting your own time with endless meaningless discussion about things which can neither be proven nor dis-proven? If so then that part may lead you to start  relaxing into your bodymind, conscious of the whole body whilst breathing in and out and conscious of the whole body calming and relaxing whilst breathing in and out, letting thoughts, feelings and perceptions arise and fall with neither attachment, rejection, or indifference - and you will have started the journey to changing yourself through the practical, experiential journey of meditation.

You are not being judged, you are being asked to refrain from hateful speech and to meditate to calm and centre your mind so it can heal of it's pains with hard work on your part.

No one can do it for you and you will not think yourself, read yourself or argue yourself into change.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew
« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 04:52:48 PM by The Irreverent Buddhist »
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Abbath

  • Guest
Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #43 on: January 01, 2010, 04:57:36 PM »
Underneath it all you hate yourself which is why you are such a vain, narcissistic and materialistic person. This question was asked to inflame argument with people you need to feel intellectually superior to in order to compensate for how much you hate yourself inside and feel inferior as a person - on an unconscious level.

Wow, just wow.

Anyway, this thread is way off now, I'm out.

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #44 on: January 01, 2010, 05:16:41 PM »
Underneath it all you hate yourself which is why you are such a vain, narcissistic and materialistic person. This question was asked to inflame argument with people you need to feel intellectually superior to in order to compensate for how much you hate yourself inside and feel inferior as a person - on an unconscious level.

Wow, just wow.

Anyway, this thread is way off now, I'm out.

Best wishes with your journey through life. The truth stings yet running from it will not solve anything. I hope you find peace one day.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

mik1e

  • Guest
Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #45 on: January 01, 2010, 06:01:28 PM »
I am ... have spent the last two decades trying to understand the "how and why" of human existence, essentially using the scientific method.


Hi TomThumb,

If you are interested, I would suggest to communicate on more professional level about scientific researches of meditation. Since such discussion may be a bit outside from mainstream of this forum, I would suggest to make it either using PM service, or our regular e-mails (which is more preferable for me, since checking gmail box is more convenient :)). I've sent you a PM. My e-mail is in my signature.


I think there are people who would be interested in joining this - I for one would like to see it discussed on the forums. It is a subject area with which I have some familiarity.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew


Excellent!

So, if TomThumb kindly agree for discussion, we will start separate thread on this forum.

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
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  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #46 on: January 01, 2010, 06:03:00 PM »

Excellent!

So, if TomThumb kindly agree for discussion, we will start separate thread on this forum.

He's on holiday now :) Patience Mik1e - one of the five elements of wisdom ... ;) Why don't you start the thread yourself ..... he may not even wish to join but others might ... ?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 06:03:53 PM by The Irreverent Buddhist »
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mik1e

  • Guest
Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #47 on: January 01, 2010, 06:35:13 PM »
he may not even wish to join ... ?

That's why I said "if" :).

Why don't you start the thread yourself .....?

Well, it may be an idea. But I would like to keep more or less high level of communication, closer to scientific requirements (references, validity, logic, analytical approach, ...). Less words, more information. That's why participation of professionals and their critics will be highly appreciated in this thread.

Ok, I will think on the agenda for such discussion.

mindful1983

  • Guest
Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2010, 01:23:43 PM »
Abbath, what happens when you meditate (a.k.a., stop and watch) is that you will eventually end up in stillness, witnessing your thoughts, your sensations, sights, sounds, not as something that you have control over. you will see that your thoughts come based on the thought that came before it.

in the same way, when one is angry or has a bad intention, a bad action is what comes next. we don't usually notice this because we are not still enough to see it, but its actually happening. so when you meditate you see this. so then you understand 'karma'. its just common sense. maybe you're insulted with the request to "do meditation" and you compare it to the christian or other religious responses, sort of like encouraging you to "be one of us then you'll understand". remember, vipassana only means to see things are they are. "meditation" usually instills a negative image due to its bad marketing, etc. so if you think of it more like, you're just watching, then it doesn't seem so dubious.

there are many videos on youtube that explain this. a teacher, Shinzen Young http://www.youtube.com/expandcontract is great at explaining it all from a more scientific point of view.



I think meditation is hard its not necessarily due to a person's choice, i think its also an inability. closed-mindedness is as much a choice as a disability. one cannot meditate because they are too restless.

mindful1983

  • Guest
Re: Where's the evidence for karma, rebirth, and the supernatural?
« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2010, 02:00:00 PM »
the good thing about Vipassana is that it strays away from the problem you pointed out: "People dont like buddhism becoz of all the strings attached. Supernatural beliefs, etc." Though all these things if studied more closely are actually less supernatural than what people think, it still is alot of freaky shit.
Vipassana is more about the practical approach. I don't think it will help you with sex though.

I think over-all, Vipassana isn't the answer to all the problems, nor is becoming enlightened. Vipassana is a technique like many others. It's incredibly valuable and amazing. I don't think Vipassana is for everyone. Of course I would recommend my mom to try it but she won't. I mean, Vipassana is not something everyone is capable and willing and sees the point or usefulness in doing. There is even a saying, "if you wanna be comfortable, don't start (meditation). Once started, best to finish". This is because it can be a bumpy ride.  Whatever religion one has, they can be good people too and i think this is more important. I'm atleast grateful that Christianity is the predominant religion and not Scientology or Transcendental Meditation.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 02:04:43 PM by mindful1983 »

 

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