Contradictions between buddhism and personal development

[Matthew]

I we were to make a survey on this forum to find out who the people are that visit, their educational background and socionomic status, I'm quite sure we'd find that a majority are well educated, upper middle class people with a certain quality of freethinking and spiritual rebelliousness.

Done.

Can't get it working ... undone lol

[Johnny Ross]

Wow!  I am surprised at the amount of judgmentalism, egotism, and "holier than thou" attitude on a buddhist site.

To call somebody's teachings, "crap" because they are passionate about helping others improve their lives is quite a statement.  How is "improving the quality of your life" in a stark contrast to buddhism?  Wouldn't studying buddhism be a means to improve the quality of your life, and/or those around you?

There are many paths to the same mountain top.   Others may choose a different path, but that does not make the path wrong.  Would you be better off if you had not gone to school, learned to read, eat healthy foods?  You would have difficulty meditating if you did not have a teacher to instruct you on how to do that.  Your study of language (bettering yourself) is what gave you the opportunity to learn how to meditate. 

To Matthew:
On a side note, I am familiar with the work of Anthony Robbins.  He is a very genuine person and has great empathy for those he serves and human kind in general.  In contrast to your portrayal of him, one of his primary teaching points is to practice the art of fufilment... being happy with what you currently have.  He points out many "successful" people who suffered from depression, and many who took their own lives out of fear and unhappiness, despite having fame, money, power, etc.  His teachings are not about driving around in a Ferrarri, but achiving your own dreams... whatever those dreams may be.  Your judgmental, ignorant, portrayal of him, and those who have benefitted from his teachings is very immature and childish.   You postings clearly show that you have failed to grasp the teachings of buddhism and have a poor understanding of meditation.  The fact that I am replying to you shows that I have not succeeded in that as well.  Letting people like you offend me with your ignorance is one of the many burdens I have yet to learn to shed.  I am a very peaceful and loving person, but I find myself getting easily frustrated by religious zealots, and other closed minded individuals who are more focused on displaying their superior beliefs and putting down others, than spreading peace and love.

Yes, I am aware that I am doing the exact same thing by posting this, but like I said... I have a lot yet to learn, and I have much room to grow.  I am not however claiming to be a true follower of vipassana meditation or buddhism.

[redalert]

Hi Johnny,

Welcome to the forum, the people here are pretty open minded especially Matthew so I don't want you to feel as though you need to hold back with your comments, let it all out.

I love your writing style the way you rip into someones imperfections and then admit to having similar imperfections.

Keep on spreading the peace and love.

[Vivek]

Johnny Ross, no personal attacks toward forum members, please. You have reopened a long dead thread for no apparent reason other than defending your views against a forum member. Let's keep this a peaceful forum. 

[Stefan]

round and round goes the karmic wheel, round and round ...

keep on spreading the peace and love

[barrec]

Johnny Ross, no personal attacks toward forum members, please. You have reopened a long dead thread for no apparent reason other than defending your views against a forum member. Let's keep this a peaceful forum.

As a sporadic lurker (at best) I was very happy to read through the old threat as I had recently contemplated similar questions. I enjoyed the conversation and multiple points of view.

Agreed, though - less attacks, more peace. I hope I can do as much.

[Matthew]

Wow!  I am surprised at the amount of judgmentalism, egotism, and "holier than thou" attitude on a buddhist site.

You can't have been to many Buddhist sites then.

To call somebody's teachings, "crap" because they are passionate about helping others improve their lives is quite a statement.  How is "improving the quality of your life" in a stark contrast to buddhism?  Wouldn't studying buddhism be a means to improve the quality of your life, and/or those around you?

Robbins is all about building the ego. Buddhism is about seeing that it's fake, unreal, non-existent as a "solid ongoing thing". They are in utter contradiction as to the means - although yes, in some limited sense one could at a stretch say they have some goals in common.

... snip ...

To Matthew:
On a side note, I am familiar with the work of Anthony Robbins.  He is a very genuine person and has great empathy for those he serves and human kind in general.  In contrast to your portrayal of him, one of his primary teaching points is to practice the art of fufilment... being happy with what you currently have.  He points out many "successful" people who suffered from depression, and many who took their own lives out of fear and unhappiness, despite having fame, money, power, etc.  His teachings are not about driving around in a Ferrarri, but achiving your own dreams... whatever those dreams may be. 

I too am very familiar with Robbins' work. Those dreams by the way are a figment of your imagination, driven by unconscious habit - and as I said above, utterly in contradiction to Buddhist practice.

Your judgmental, ignorant, portrayal of him,

Stop right there and just listen to yourself please. Would have been wise to do that before posting.

... snip ..

The fact that I am replying to you shows that I have not succeeded in that as well.  Letting people like you offend me with your ignorance is one of the many burdens I have yet to learn to shed.  I am a very peaceful and loving person, but I find myself getting easily frustrated by religious zealots, and other closed minded individuals who are more focused on displaying their superior beliefs and putting down others, than spreading peace and love.

Yes, I am aware that I am doing the exact same thing by posting this, but like I said... I have a lot yet to learn, and I have much room to grow.  I am not however claiming to be a true follower of vipassana meditation or buddhism.

If you are aware you are doing something you accuse me of don't you think it would have been wise not to post a string of insult and resurrect a three year old thread?

Seriously ..... you state you understand next to nothing AND claim to be able to divine that I understand next to nothing ..... wow. Really .. just wow.

[Irfan]

Start Meditation. Try doing it reularly. Meanwhile, pursue your worldly interests as well. Don't force changes in your habits - let them come about automatically. Soon you will be in a position dedicate your whole life to serve and help other people. And you will realize you have never been happier.

I like what Crystal Palace says. I have some of the same feelings about some schools' insistence on sila, which may involve celibacy and various other restrictions. Of course, some people would say that sila is the base upon which meditation practice is built. That doesn't work for me, I think I'll continue with meditation and then, when celibacy and other practices seem natural and unforced, I'll take them up. I look forward to being a happy, celibate 80 year old ....

I don't think we should take views of morality on faith.

[redalert]

Hey Irfan,
I understand what your saying about not forcing sila, I agree it should be natural. We should come out of our old habits naturally almost effortlessly.
BUT, sila IS the base for calming the mind, allowing samadhi to strengthen and ultimately for wisdom to arise which will naturally liberate us from ignorant harmful behaviour. Strong determination is needed for periods of intense meditation and we must in the beginning resolve to follow this strict code of conduct for these intensive periods(retreats). When your retreat is over you are free to resume your natural behaviour, we only hope that now our behaviour is slightly less destructive. With regular dailly practice and periods of retreat we will gradually change the habit pattern of the mind.

[Irfan]

I understand what your saying about not forcing sila, I agree it should be natural. We should come out of our old habits naturally almost effortlessly. BUT, sila IS the base for calming the mind, allowing samadhi to strengthen and ultimately for wisdom to arise which will naturally liberate us from ignorant harmful behaviour. Strong determination is needed for periods of intense meditation and we must in the beginning resolve to follow this strict code of conduct for these intensive periods(retreats). When your retreat is over you are free to resume your natural behaviour, we only hope that now our behaviour is slightly less destructive. With regular dailly practice and periods of retreat we will gradually change the habit pattern of the mind.

Yes, I agree. But as some of the scandals surrounding some of the more established global religious orders show, it's not necessarily a good thing for people to commit to a code of morality that they can't abide by, it tends to have "unintended negative consequences".

Ha. Somewhat ironically, a former girl-friend of mine was called "Sila". It's quite a common name in Indonesia.

[Renze]

The chapter on sila in Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha by Daniel Ingram was very inspiring to me, especially this part:

The second two trainings, those having to do with attaining unusual states of mind and those having to do with ultimate realizations, have limits, in that we can master them absolutely. However, this cannot be said of the first training. There is no limit to the degree of skill that can be brought to how we live in the world. Thus, morality is also the last training, the training that we will have to work on for all of our life. We may be able to attain to astounding states of consciousness and understand the true nature of reality, but what people see and what is causal are the ways that these abilities and understandings translate into how we live in the world.

The chapter (and the entire e-book) can be found here: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB%20Morality,%20The%20First%20and%20Last%20Training?p_r_p_185834411_title=MCTB%20Morality,%20The%20First%20and%20Last%20Training

[redalert]

Yes, I agree. But as some of the scandals surrounding some of the more established global religious orders show, it's not necessarily a good thing for people to commit to a code of morality that they can't abide by, it tends to have "unintended negative consequences".

Yes many practices are taken to extremes this is why the buddha found the middle path.

I had a girlfriend named luciforus, I wonder which one was more fun.