Author Topic: The fear of non returning.  (Read 6309 times)

Middleway

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2022, 01:53:59 PM »
Fear of non returning, or fear of returning?

Society seems to require everyone operate at a certain level of ego. But once you have seen through your own hubris, having to return back into the world of ego noise can be a daunting thing indeed.

Once we have the breakthrough, there is no little i. It will be a totally transformed mind. This new mind(set) will always be in Brahma Viharas. It will always be in either equanimity, sympathetic joy, compassion and loving kindness.

So, returning to the world will not be a problem at all. Those who achieve tranquility in seclusion but not breakthrough will have a hard time for sure.
Take everything I say with a grain of salt.

Dhamma

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2022, 05:45:21 AM »
Sometimes I think I understand what he is saying but then some guy asks a question and I understand the question but I don't understand the answer haha. It is very entertaining/stimulating though.

The theory of Advaita is not that hard I think. It's almost the same as Buddhism. Essentially both philosophical systems want to lose their sense of self and this is the mukti or liberation or nirvana.

You are correct, I believe. I have a hard time really distinguishing between Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism "at its core." I believe that the Advaita monk Romana Maharshi was just as enlightened as any highly enlightened Buddhist monk.

Advaita uses "god" talk, whereas Buddhists refrain from such language. But, "god" is not understood in the same way in Advaita as it is in Western religions.

I suppose that "god-consciousness" in Advaita is what Buddhists call "seeing emptiness directly."

Again, please don't take my words as fact. I am just repeating what I've heard elsewhere. It makes some sense to me, or I would not be repeating it.

@OP: I suppose the fear of non-returning is just our clinging to the self. When we clearly see the emptiness of self, we don't fear not returning. 

I am here to tell you that I am "fear not returning", because I am still very attached "to me."  Hard to think that I will die someday.  I'm too special to die and not return, right? LOL


Peace and enlightenment.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2022, 05:48:42 AM by Dhamma »
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dharma bum

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2022, 06:47:21 PM »
Quote
You are correct, I believe. I have a hard time really distinguishing between Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism "at its core." I believe that the Advaita monk Romana Maharshi was just as enlightened as any highly enlightened Buddhist monk.

Advaita uses "god" talk, whereas Buddhists refrain from such language. But, "god" is not understood in the same way in Advaita as it is in Western religions.

I just read some stuff on NM and Ramana Maharshi on the net. NM's family was steeped in the Varkari tradition that worships Vithal who is the most prominent deity in that part of the world. Ramana Maharshi comes from a Shaivite tradition, so for both NM and RM, the concept of God and the divine come naturally.

Although there are a lot of devout temple-going people in my extended family, the idea of God or the divine just isn't part of my mental framework. I prefer the Buddhist idea of emptiness which intuitively makes complete sense to me. However, the Advaitic question of "Who am I?" works quite well for me as a Buddhist as well.
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Thanisaro85

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2022, 02:46:37 AM »
As i were opening this topic, it's fear of non returning.

I think its like living for a long times, with the habituals of knowing what living is like. Then if we enter into a non-self state( which i am confused now). How is it like?

There is no 'self', but do we still "know"?

If there is still conscious of "knowing"  that is scary.


Perhap my anxiety has worsened....




A Mind Unshaken, when touches by worldy matter, sorrowless, secure and dustless, this is the ultimate great blessing~ Mangala Sutta

Dhamma

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2022, 05:03:57 AM »
As i were opening this topic, it's fear of non returning.

I think its like living for a long times, with the habituals of knowing what living is like. Then if we enter into a non-self state( which i am confused now). How is it like?

There is no 'self', but do we still "know"?

If there is still conscious of "knowing"  that is scary.


Perhap my anxiety has worsened....


Dear friend,

I sympathize with you. I know exactly where you are coming from, as I have extremely high anxiety all the time. I can give you compassion, but I don't have any real answers.

@Dharma Bum:  Ramana Maharshi was devoted to a certain god, but he didn't view that god in a personal way in ultimate reality. That god was his "god-consciousness", I believe. This is the sort of thing you see in Tibetan Buddhism. There is no real creator god, or "personal" god - it's just the merging of the self with all of the universe, seen through the lens of a "fictitious" god. I could be wrong, but that's I understand it from what I've read.

Yes, emptiness is more your path, and that is also beautiful and logical. I understand where you are coming from, friend.


Peace and enlightenment.
May we see the emptiness of all phenomena

Dhamma

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2022, 12:14:42 AM »
So how will it feel when one become Arahant or buddha?

I don’t know. 😀

I asked this question to a Hindu monk. He was forthcoming and said he does not know either but gave an intellectual answer.

An Arahant’s mind is absolutely still. They use it only when they want to. There is no sense of I at all. They respond spontaneously and they watch their body and mind act in accordance with Dhamma. They do not grasp onto anything but watch everything with choiceless awareness. There is no fear whatsoever. They are beyond existence and non-existence. 

Nisargadatta Maharaj put it very eloquently. He said “ I am everything - that is love. I am nothing - that is wisdom. Between these two my life flows”.


Wow - that is beautiful!  It really touched me.

Thank you for posting this.

Peace and enlightenment.
May we see the emptiness of all phenomena

Dharmic Tui

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2022, 10:18:08 AM »
Fear of non returning, or fear of returning?

Society seems to require everyone operate at a certain level of ego. But once you have seen through your own hubris, having to return back into the world of ego noise can be a daunting thing indeed.

Once we have the breakthrough, there is no little i. It will be a totally transformed mind. This new mind(set) will always be in Brahma Viharas. It will always be in either equanimity, sympathetic joy, compassion and loving kindness.

So, returning to the world will not be a problem at all. Those who achieve tranquility in seclusion but not breakthrough will have a hard time for sure.
This is as written.

But from a practical contemporary perspective, how plausible for someone living anything other than a monastic life?

Gautama got to abandon his wife and child on the path to enlightenment. That's a fairly high entry requirement.

Also, given there is an element of conscious effort required, even if one has a 'breakthrough', that shift in perspective is not assured to be permanent.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 10:23:21 AM by Dharmic Tui »

dharma bum

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2022, 03:59:30 PM »
Quote
Gautama got to abandon his wife and child on the path to enlightenment. That's a fairly high entry requirement.

Nisargadatta Maharaj seems be a normal person. Interestingly, their spiritual community comprises of householders and the spiritual teacher traditionally visited followers in their homes travelling from village to village. Of course you would need to live a simple life.
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Middleway

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2022, 02:31:39 AM »
Fear of non returning, or fear of returning?

Society seems to require everyone operate at a certain level of ego. But once you have seen through your own hubris, having to return back into the world of ego noise can be a daunting thing indeed.

Once we have the breakthrough, there is no little i. It will be a totally transformed mind. This new mind(set) will always be in Brahma Viharas. It will always be in either equanimity, sympathetic joy, compassion and loving kindness.

So, returning to the world will not be a problem at all. Those who achieve tranquility in seclusion but not breakthrough will have a hard time for sure.
This is as written.

But from a practical contemporary perspective, how plausible for someone living anything other than a monastic life?

Gautama got to abandon his wife and child on the path to enlightenment. That's a fairly high entry requirement.

Also, given there is an element of conscious effort required, even if one has a 'breakthrough', that shift in perspective is not assured to be permanent.

Once you have stream entry, there is no going back even if you want to. This is also as written.
Take everything I say with a grain of salt.

Middleway

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2022, 02:34:26 AM »
Here is a good read on the topic of breakthrough. Enjoy!

https://amaravati.org/dhamma-books/the-breakthrough/
Take everything I say with a grain of salt.

Matthew

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2022, 01:08:34 AM »
The theory of Advaita is not that hard I think. It's almost the same as Buddhism. Essentially both philosophical systems want to lose their sense of self and this is the mukti or liberation or nirvana.

Almost the same yet completely different. Advaita is one of the closest forms of Hindu thought to pre-Hindu Brahmanism. Buddha's teachings were largely an experiential refutation of much that is axiomatic to those teachings. Where Brahmanic teachings had a monist theory of Atman being a shadow of "God", Buddha taught anatman and dis-identification with absolute reality, and a refutation of identity with ultimate reality or dis-identification with it. I can't pretend I fully understand the teachings of Buddha, I never have, yet the "not one, not two" Buddhist understanding is definitely something I am able to touch in meditation, however briefly.
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Middleway

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2022, 11:44:37 AM »
Good to see you back Matthew. Hope all is well.

Warm Regards,

Middleway
Take everything I say with a grain of salt.

Matthew

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2022, 08:20:57 PM »
Thank you Middleway. I've been lurking with not much to say .. life goes on. I hope all is well with you too 🙏
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

mettajoey

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2022, 11:22:38 PM »
You're sending some kind of energy out, Matthew
The best type of meditation is the one that you'll do

Matthew

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2022, 09:14:17 PM »
You're sending some kind of energy out, Matthew

LOL good to hear from you Joe. What brings you to these parts?
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

mettajoey

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2022, 07:21:19 PM »
I drop in from time to time as well. Rare to be able re-visit a place that supports time to reflect on what was and now is.
The best type of meditation is the one that you'll do

Matthew

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2022, 10:24:53 PM »
Very true Joe. It's a valuable difference in a world driven by instant gratification.
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Mert

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2023, 03:19:13 AM »
There're stages roughly called muhasebe, murakabe, musahede.

Muhasebe means taking note of your actions, dealing with it, in the end you have nothing to deal with.
There's a way of doing muhasebe before meditation, for example, before starting the practice, you imagine you just died right there, people you know took you and performed what it takes you to bury/burn you. Step by step you deal with these things. You're in the grave now, what did you do in this lifetime? Do not think, just let it come to you, until there's nothing left.

Murakabe is observing your own, being aware of everything. This is important to purify the practice. Experienced practitioners are always in this stage, I assume.
Musahede is just observing, there's no you or me. There's no belief, no dimension, no sound, no time.

It is said that if someone isn't pure, they won't be able to hold on and will be overwhelmed by fear and sometimes light.

Before starting the meditation, ideally constantly as you live, one needs to be willing to accept anything as it is. This means you don't believe anything, you don't want anything. You can't just feed the issues you have to feel at ease and drop that behind. What you feed grows stronger, when it has grown stronger, how will you make it accept any way other than it's own way?

What you say by "I" varies a lot. There's not one and only you, there's a lot of yourselves we need to deal with.

It's known that what you see as cats in dreams, or other animal figures you saw, might be something you need to fight off off your practice, in my worthless experience.

I wish you all a good life, nice to see the forum still exists.




dharma bum

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2023, 05:11:05 PM »
I've been doing some more reading about Advaita and perhaps psychologically, the self-realization in Advaita is not the same as in Buddhism. I found a nice conversation about NM here : https://www.davidgodman.org/remembering-nisargadatta-maharaj/.

Not sure if anybody already posted it.

I have a lot of trouble with the concept of Brahman and consciousness. Sometimes it just seems like mumbo-jumbo (I'm open to the idea that I'm just an idiot). Buddhism just seems easier.
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Dhamma

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2023, 04:01:08 AM »
I've been doing some more reading about Advaita and perhaps psychologically, the self-realization in Advaita is not the same as in Buddhism. I found a nice conversation about NM here : https://www.davidgodman.org/remembering-nisargadatta-maharaj/.

Not sure if anybody already posted it.

I have a lot of trouble with the concept of Brahman and consciousness. Sometimes it just seems like mumbo-jumbo (I'm open to the idea that I'm just an idiot). Buddhism just seems easier.


I just love your posts, even though you're an stupid idiot just like me. LOL

(PS: I love your humility; you'd make a Zen Master smile).
May we see the emptiness of all phenomena

dharma bum

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2023, 03:07:10 PM »
Quote
I just love your posts, even though you're an stupid idiot just like me. LOL

It happens frequently to me that I say to myself - I understand this now.

But some years later, I think - I didn't really understand it then. I understand it now.

But it really seems like I never really understand, haha.
Mostly ignorant

Dhamma

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2023, 03:57:04 AM »
It happens frequently to me that I say to myself - I understand this now.

But some years later, I think - I didn't really understand it then. I understand it now.

But it really seems like I never really understand, haha.

Again, sounds a lot like me; though I still keep on trying.

I still think the Zen Buddhists were onto something.

Peace and enlightenment.  :)
May we see the emptiness of all phenomena

mobius

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2023, 12:16:18 AM »
It happens frequently to me that I say to myself - I understand this now.

But some years later, I think - I didn't really understand it then. I understand it now.

But it really seems like I never really understand, haha.

Again, sounds a lot like me; though I still keep on trying.

I still think the Zen Buddhists were onto something.

Peace and enlightenment.  :)

Me too.
I believe I'm at that stage where it at times feels like I'm not getting anywhere and I haven't improved myself at all (as many teachers I've listened to talk about). And even my meditations these days... often feel pretty abysmal, I can't seem to keep focused for more than a few seconds at a time. Yet whenever I go a day or two without even making an attempt (actually sitting, even if my mind is wondering most of the time) I can feel it. It's often just a barely perceptible, almost indescribable feeling; like my mind isn't where it should be or isn't quite doing what it usually does... very strange.
"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain

mobius

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2023, 12:38:55 AM »
apologies for the double post.

There're stages roughly called muhasebe, murakabe, musahede.

Muhasebe means taking note of your actions, dealing with it, in the end you have nothing to deal with.
There's a way of doing muhasebe before meditation, for example, before starting the practice, you imagine you just died right there, people you know took you and performed what it takes you to bury/burn you. Step by step you deal with these things. You're in the grave now, what did you do in this lifetime? Do not think, just let it come to you, until there's nothing left.

Murakabe is observing your own, being aware of everything. This is important to purify the practice. Experienced practitioners are always in this stage, I assume.
Musahede is just observing, there's no you or me. There's no belief, no dimension, no sound, no time.

It is said that if someone isn't pure, they won't be able to hold on and will be overwhelmed by fear and sometimes light.

Before starting the meditation, ideally constantly as you live, one needs to be willing to accept anything as it is. This means you don't believe anything, you don't want anything. You can't just feed the issues you have to feel at ease and drop that behind. What you feed grows stronger, when it has grown stronger, how will you make it accept any way other than it's own way?

What you say by "I" varies a lot. There's not one and only you, there's a lot of yourselves we need to deal with.

It's known that what you see as cats in dreams, or other animal figures you saw, might be something you need to fight off off your practice, in my worthless experience.

I wish you all a good life, nice to see the forum still exists.

this was really interesting. I sometimes have recurring dreams about a tiger off in the distance, coming to get me or just there and I'm terrified of it. Though I've never seen a tiger in real life. And once during my "epic" dream of self discovery my cat at the time appeared in it and for some reason during the dream I knew that my cat there was actually God. I don't even believe in God...
"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain

Middleway

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Re: The fear of non returning.
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2023, 06:48:48 PM »
I have a lot of trouble with the concept of Brahman and consciousness. Sometimes it just seems like mumbo-jumbo (I'm open to the idea that I'm just an idiot). Buddhism just seems easier.

I suggest you read “Vakya Vritti” by Adi Sankara commentary by Swami Chinmayananda. It helped me understand and reconcile Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism.
Take everything I say with a grain of salt.

 

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