Author Topic: Do you encounter this?  (Read 1662 times)

Thanisaro85

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Do you encounter this?
« on: December 22, 2021, 03:28:05 AM »
Hello Sangha,

I am not sure if what i am facing is due to aging and bad health, or something else.

I was in a angry+ anxiety mood yesterday due to some trivial things.It took me quite some effort using meditation to calm down but that is not the point.

With yesterday experience.  I realised these few years, when i get angry and frustrated, the mood stay for a long time. It was "so focused" that it just can't go away. There is an burning sensation in my chest.

I remember before stepping over age of 40. I do get angry but it goes away very fast by its own, but now, the feels/ sensation are like stucked in my chest for some of the issues. Making me almost impossible to carry out other things. As i said, it is really trivial thing and it not even my business for some of the cases.🤣

Anyone else has this issue? Is it heart or lung issue, or andropause 🤣? No i have not went for annual check up for past 2 years.

May you be happy😘
A Mind Unshaken, when touches by worldy matter, sorrowless, secure and dustless, this is the ultimate great blessing~ Mangala Sutta

Dhamma

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Re: Do you encounter this?
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2021, 04:20:47 AM »
It is okay. Accept the feelings, no how bad and scary they are. After all, they're just feelings. It's hard to believe what a feeling can do to the mind.  Don't run from them.  I've been dealing with dreadful feelings the past few months. I think I am going to go crazy (but I never do). I just accept them; I "open up" to them (I practice Qigong).

I love you, dear friend. :)  You will see clarity somehow.
May we see the emptiness of all phenomena

Liuyi

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Re: Do you encounter this?
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2021, 04:56:20 AM »
Hi Thanisaro85,

Once you become aware that your mind is focusing on something which you shouldn't, try to do something else, move your attention onwards to something that could open your heart, something that could make you feel happy and joy. If you don't get out of that trace of mind, the trend may continue in your daily life. It is a good thing that you have been aware of it, so try to get rid of it.

It is true that different mood connects with different organs, I think they are well explained in different discipline systems. In our ancient China theories, anger connects with liver.
Nothingness

Liuyi

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Re: Do you encounter this?
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2021, 05:01:46 AM »
Hi Dhamma,

Nice to meet you.

May I ask what kind of Qigong you've been practicing?  I seldom meet people who practicing Qigong on this or other forums, so would you mind introducing a little bit more of your practice? Thanks.

Regards

Liu Yi
Nothingness

Thanisaro85

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Re: Do you encounter this?
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2021, 03:43:06 PM »
Idear friend. :)  You will see clarity somehow.

Hey, hope you are doing good!

How is the qigong going on?
A Mind Unshaken, when touches by worldy matter, sorrowless, secure and dustless, this is the ultimate great blessing~ Mangala Sutta

Thanisaro85

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Re: Do you encounter this?
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2021, 03:46:45 PM »
Hi Thanisaro85,

It is true that different mood connects with different organs, I think they are well explained in different discipline systems. In our ancient China theories, anger connects with liver.

Hi Liuyi
Thanks for dropping by....so my liver is having issue, not lung? Coz it is at chest area...not rib..

Anyway, thanks for the infos.
A Mind Unshaken, when touches by worldy matter, sorrowless, secure and dustless, this is the ultimate great blessing~ Mangala Sutta

Dhamma

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Re: Do you encounter this?
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2021, 03:44:31 PM »
Qigong has really helped me.  I used Mingtong Gu's Mastery for Life program. He's very legit.  You have to be careful when selecting a teacher to make sure that they are on the up and up. I think the man is rather enlightened in many ways. He's a practitioner of Vajrayana Buddhism. I really research teachers I use.

I think Qigong can really help you. It's about connecting to the natural energy all around you. I believe all disease and mental issues come from energy blockages in the body.  There are both movement exercises, meditations and sound healing sessions involved in the practice. Qigong uses the body to connect to the mind in order to become more enlightened.

You can easily combine Qigong practice with your daily Buddhist practice, even if it's a more Theravada Buddhist practice. :)

Read about Qigong when you have time and decide if you think you might want to give it a try. One thing is for sure: you have to do the exercices, etc with consistency.


Peace and enlightenment.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2021, 05:23:20 PM by Dhamma »
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Liuyi

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Re: Do you encounter this?
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2021, 04:37:36 AM »
Thanks Dhamma,

I know what you are talking about. The origin of that technique is by Pang(Family name) Ming (Given name). 
Do you have any physical feelings when you were doing the practice together with others in the Qi/Chi field? Would you mind describe a little bit of your physical feelings?
Actually, my discipline is different from his.
 :)
Nothingness

Matthew

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Re: Do you encounter this?
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2021, 04:28:01 PM »
Hi Thanisaro,

I am not sure if what i am facing is due to aging and bad health, or something else.

Quote
Is it heart or lung issue, or andropause 🤣? No i have not went for annual check up for past 2 years.

If there could be a physical manifestation then it seems wise to get a check up: medicine and meditate come from the same Latin root, and it is not the wisest attitude to believe meditation can heal everything. Better to know and get help for medical problems if they are there no?

Having said that, though yes - it is common sense to get a regular check up, I don't suspect the problem you are facing now comes from a medical/physical problem.

Quote
I was in a angry+ anxiety mood yesterday due to some trivial things.It took me quite some effort using meditation to calm down but that is not the point.

With yesterday experience.  I realised these few years, when i get angry and frustrated, the mood stay for a long time. It was "so focused" that it just can't go away. There is an burning sensation in my chest.

I remember before stepping over age of 40. I do get angry but it goes away very fast by its own, but now, the feels/ sensation are like stucked in my chest for some of the issues. Making me almost impossible to carry out other things. As i said, it is really trivial thing and it not even my business for some of the cases.🤣

So to summarise:

- You are experiencing anger and/or anxiety about things.

- This has been more common in recent years and more persistent.

- When you were younger the anger would "go away very fast" on it's own.

- Often the cause of the anger or anxiety may be trivial, and sometimes not even your 'business'.

- You find it difficult to let go of these moods, though you have found that you can, through meditation (though less easily than you would wish).

Quote
Anyone else has this issue?

I think many of us have had this issue or similar at different times in our journey. I certainly have: I got the T-shirt, the tote bag, the mouse-mat, coffee mug and a bunch of other useless shit from the Clinging Is Us shop. It was a long-standing addiction.

It seems that you are simply clinging to things you identify with inappropriately Thanisaro ... simply clinging to the way you think some things should be. You are self-identifying with the perceived wrongs towards your view of how things should be, even to the point of clinging to how things should be about stuff you know isn't your business. In reaction to identifying with a view of how things should be and seeing things that do not fit with your view, the result is that anger and/or anxiety are arising.

Maybe that the anger used to subside on it's own when you were younger, without examination, without understanding, was because you buried those feelings before seeing where they came from? So, perhaps you built a bit of a habit of hiding from uncomfortable feelings?

Now you are older and naturally more reflective, it is harder to hide from negative feelings arising from your clinging .. the habit doesn't work so well. Yet if the habit of hiding was one you built and relied upon earlier in life, then that habit could be in contradiction to the naturally more reflective mind that comes with age.

Dhamma sums up what is the probable antidote in one sentence:

Don't run from them.

It does sound as though the younger you built a habit of running from negative feelings, of burying them. This could be why they seemed to go away on their own. But in truth they didn't go away .. they got buried inside you, became internalised, habituated and clung to. Older you is now fighting a battle between this habit and the wisdom of knowing you can't run .. because however far you run you will find yourself right there.

Turning your mind away from these feelings is a form of running away. So the advice below is not in line with my understanding or experience of what cures such issues:

Once you become aware that your mind is focusing on something which you shouldn't, try to do something else, move your attention onwards to something that could open your heart, something that could make you feel happy and joy. If you don't get out of that trace of mind, the trend may continue in your daily life. It is a good thing that you have been aware of it, so try to get rid of it.


In my experience, the only way to get rid of old habits of aversion (i.e. clinging to negatives) is to see them clearly; to understand them; to gain insight (vipassana) into them. So, as you have been doing in meditation, when such feelings arise, perhaps you must continue to develop the ability to watch without identifying with them; to examine the arising and falling with a mind of open inquiry and equanimity/non-clinging or "acceptance", as Dhamma writes.

Acceptance doesn't mean to accept such arisings as valid/true/accurate. It just means to be aware of them with an accepting mind; an open and inquiring mind; a non-judgemental mind; a "befriending" mind; a mind which inquires of such arisings: "Where do you come from? What purpose do you (or did you) serve? How and why did I learn to run from you? What do you need from me to heal now? What attitude/mind must I cultivate to let go of you now?".

Only by feeling your feelings, then seeing they are not "your feelings", but habituated reactions to things not being as they *should be* can you let go of clinging to them.

Quote
It is true that different mood connects with different organs, I think they are well explained in different discipline systems. In our ancient China theories, anger connects with liver.

This is a truth of Chinese medicine systems. They are ancient and contain much wisdom, yet also have not been updated with modern knowledge. Generally I would advise against taking anything resembling medical advice from an internet forum.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 04:35:22 PM by Matthew »
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Quardamon

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Re: Do you encounter this?
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2021, 09:09:15 PM »
Hello Thanisaro85,

Your question is: Do you encounter this?
I am not sure - maybe so.
There are times, also these last months, that my wife and I have small irritations between us. I mean, times that each of us feels that these irritations are not our business. We feel that there is frustration and anger in our immediate or wider surrounding, and that this is our unskilled reaction to that.
I am not sure if it makes a difference for my meditation, whether is is something personal or of the surrounding that I meet. I like to know 'where it comes from' - that is so. Sometimes I focus on my moving body - walking, or cycling. That helps me a lot, if the mind is not the proper thing to 'digest' these matters.

Thanisaro85

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Re: Do you encounter this?
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2022, 08:23:48 AM »
Hi Matthew,


Appreciate for the long and mindful reply. I am having issue with my eyes so it is a challenge for me to quote and reply on my mobile. I do not have a PC here so do bear with me here.

《《《《《It seems that you are simply clinging to things you identify with inappropriately... 》》》

Perhap, but in these episodes the observing is that the anger arises very quick and hot. Its like way too sensitive to remarks- very reactive. Not on every occasions but it is disturbing.

I have the same understandings for the rest of your reply so i do not have any further questions.

Regards




A Mind Unshaken, when touches by worldy matter, sorrowless, secure and dustless, this is the ultimate great blessing~ Mangala Sutta

Dharmic Tui

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Re: Do you encounter this?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2022, 05:37:07 PM »
Sometimes we can get phony holy. That is to say, we feel we can get into a place of peace and tranquility. I'm free and breezy, easy going, but only so long as everyone else stays away from me.

Navigating life with perfect equanimity is indeed a challenge, perhaps even an impossible one. The best I've managed is becoming somewhat of a robot depending on the environment.

Either that or try not to take what's going on around you too seriously. The score is made up and the points don't matter.

Dhamma

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Re: Do you encounter this?
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2022, 01:48:35 AM »
Sometimes we can get phony holy. That is to say, we feel we can get into a place of peace and tranquility. I'm free and breezy, easy going, but only so long as everyone else stays away from me.

Navigating life with perfect equanimity is indeed a challenge, perhaps even an impossible one. The best I've managed is becoming somewhat of a robot depending on the environment.

Either that or try not to take what's going on around you too seriously. The score is made up and the points don't matter.


I've gone through some things lately where practice equanimity felt profoundly impossible.  I will say that practicing qigong regularly made things easier.

I see your point very well.

Somehow everything is okay when all seems 100% tragic.

Please take good care.

Peace and enlightenment, dear friend.
May we see the emptiness of all phenomena

Laurent

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Re: Do you encounter this?
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2022, 04:39:07 PM »
Hello Thanisaro

Anger can cause sensations in the chest but pain in the chest can also be the cause of anger.
It may be difficult to know who is preceding the other. For example, it could be gastric reflux or another problem.

I have osteoarthritis and when my pains manifest themselves, I feel that my mood becomes darker, I am aware of it but it is difficult to do. However, by observing oneself, one can always be aware that one is in a dark mood, which helps a lot. As the buddha said in the sallatha sutta, there are two parts in pain, a physical part and a mental part. So even when the pain has a physical origin, the fact of dramatizing or worrying can increase the problem. Aversion to pain makes pain all the more unbearable.

In your case I would advise you to observe this sensation directly in the chest during your practice. Trying to stay focused on this feeling while remaining attentive to your own reactions. Analyze the sensation itself and see how your mind reacts. Take breaks, take care of yourself.

Of course, i am neither an expert nor a wise man. It just works for me.

Metta.

Dhamma

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Re: Do you encounter this?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2022, 01:56:11 AM »
Dear Laurent,

Your posts are always so touching. They're very well-thought out.

You're on the right path.

Peace and enlightenment.

Love,
Dhamma
May we see the emptiness of all phenomena

Thanisaro85

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Re: Do you encounter this?
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2022, 03:30:27 AM »


Either that or try not to take what's going on around you too seriously. The score is made up and the points don't matter.

I think i get reactive too quickly....without having sufficient time to even considering right or wrong.....😪
« Last Edit: February 22, 2022, 03:41:11 AM by Thanisaro85 »
A Mind Unshaken, when touches by worldy matter, sorrowless, secure and dustless, this is the ultimate great blessing~ Mangala Sutta

Thanisaro85

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Re: Do you encounter this?
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2022, 03:40:20 AM »
Hello Thanisaro



In your case I would advise you to observe this sensation directly in the chest during your practice. Trying to stay focused on this feeling while remaining attentive to your own reactions. Analyze the sensation itself and see how your mind reacts. Take breaks, take care of yourself.

Metta.

Hi Laurent, thank you for sharing that....i shall look into osteoarthritis too. I mean, sometimes it may just be this or that medical symptoms that is causing the long staying sensation in the chest. Yup i am a worrisome person since young....i understood clearly it can be a vicious cycle....health n mind thing...thanks
A Mind Unshaken, when touches by worldy matter, sorrowless, secure and dustless, this is the ultimate great blessing~ Mangala Sutta

Dhamma

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Re: Do you encounter this?
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2022, 02:56:18 AM »
I have terrible neck-induced headaches.  I also deal with really difficult people sometimes, as we all do. I start to feel sorry for myself. Hard to see with a clear mind.  I also have incredible fear of death since my mother has fallen ill with a rare blood disease.

You can learn to disentangle your emotional involvement with all phenomena. I see how it's possible. It just takes time. You have to consistent practice.

Peace and enlightenment.
May we see the emptiness of all phenomena

Thanisaro85

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Re: Do you encounter this?
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2022, 01:59:04 PM »
I have terrible neck-induced headaches.  I also deal with really difficult people sometimes, as we all do. I start to feel sorry for myself. Hard to see with a clear mind.  I also have incredible fear of death since my mother has fallen ill with a rare blood disease.

You can learn to disentangle your emotional involvement with all phenomena. I see how it's possible. It just takes time. You have to consistent practice.

Peace and enlightenment.

Thanks for the encouragement, Dhamma.

Btw, do you smoke? Cos neck induced headaches may lead to stroke. I am having that too so do take care.
A Mind Unshaken, when touches by worldy matter, sorrowless, secure and dustless, this is the ultimate great blessing~ Mangala Sutta

Dhamma

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Re: Do you encounter this?
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2022, 04:02:08 PM »
I have terrible neck-induced headaches.  I also deal with really difficult people sometimes, as we all do. I start to feel sorry for myself. Hard to see with a clear mind.  I also have incredible fear of death since my mother has fallen ill with a rare blood disease.

You can learn to disentangle your emotional involvement with all phenomena. I see how it's possible. It just takes time. You have to consistent practice.

Peace and enlightenment.

Thanks for the encouragement, Dhamma.

Btw, do you smoke? Cos neck induced headaches may lead to stroke. I am having that too so do take care.


How are you, dear Thanisaro?

No, I don't smoke.

My cervicogenic headaches are so severe at times that I vomit. That can last for 12 hours or more. They're becoming more and more frequent. Massages help, but they are expensive.

Much love and enlightenment to you.

Dhamma
May we see the emptiness of all phenomena