Author Topic: Jed Mckenna books  (Read 797 times)

raushan

  • Member
  • from India
    • S. N. Goenka switched to Samatha Forest Tradition
Re: jed mckenna books
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2021, 11:38:01 AM »


Functional MRI and other studies of choice/decision making are showing agreement with the Buddhist understanding of self - studies have shown that when asked to make a choice and record the point in time study participants believe they made that choice, the brain imaging of FMRI can predict those choices up to ten seconds before participants made their decision.



That's really an interesting experiment.


raushan

  • Member
  • from India
    • S. N. Goenka switched to Samatha Forest Tradition
Re: jed mckenna books
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2021, 11:43:39 AM »



Some sects of Hindu religion call the material world maya or illusion. where eveything you see is a projection of your subconscious. sure there is science and experiments which can be repeated. but we are not driven by facts in life, we are driven by how we spin those facts together into a narrative. often the narrative is something which helps us survive from an evolutionary point of view, but it is also the window to the deeper complexes that we need to face with radical honesty and abstract compassion.


That's well said.


Quote
whatever the path to begin with, I feel awareness in the least always helps us with the next step. I think no matter what, if one can be centred and aware, one can always see the next step, and these days, I am trying to focus on the next step that I internally know is the way to go for the moment, rather than focussing  having a story of how I will progress and what will happen or exactly how what I am doing is going to help me progress...those things are important but not more important than the daily work that we know we should do..

I have this poster on my wall that I am attaching here.. it is similar to the theme.

Yeah, I agree with it. It's like we must do the absolute basic i.e. being in the present and let things unfold. Every time I read Jiddu Krishnamurti It hit me like a lightening. He goes staright to the core/ the truth. No bullshit.

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Member
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: jed mckenna books
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2021, 09:09:34 PM »
Man these things I have read-only in books or seen in the Chinese movies. You have actually learned these things. Thanks for sharing it.

The key to all of them is mindfulness. That skill is transferable to anything: making a cup of tea, doing the dishes, meeting a stranger ... I don't cling to them, they aren't practices I continue, with the exception of Kado from time to time: working with flowers profoundly enhances mindfulness and being in the present.

That's really an interesting experiment.

It's part of a growing body of evidence showing that consciousness doesn't look like a soul or self, that it is ever changing, and not centred in any one part of the brain. Conceptions of consciousness that have held for years are proving useless in the search to understand it from a traditional scientific point of view, where objective experience doesn't count as evidence.

The reality is that Western science understands neither the basic physics of the universe or how our minds and consciousness arise.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2021, 09:15:23 PM by Matthew »
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

raushan

  • Member
  • from India
    • S. N. Goenka switched to Samatha Forest Tradition
Re: jed mckenna books
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2021, 10:01:50 AM »
Quote
Man these things I have read-only in books or seen in the Chinese movies. You have actually learned these things. Thanks for sharing it.
The key to all of them is mindfulness. That skill is transferable to anything: making a cup of tea, doing the dishes, meeting a stranger ... I don't cling to them, they aren't practices I continue, with the exception of Kado from time to time: working with flowers profoundly enhances mindfulness and being in the present.

Oh. So now I can understand few things that I saw in the movies.

Quote
It's part of a growing body of evidence showing that consciousness doesn't look like a soul or self, that it is ever changing, and not centred in any one part of the brain. Conceptions of consciousness that have held for years are proving useless in the search to understand it from a traditional scientific point of view, where objective experience doesn't count as evidence.

The reality is that Western science understands neither the basic physics of the universe or how our minds and consciousness arise.

Yes about mind and consciousness I agree with you, Matthew. But, In machine learning research there are scientists who are trying to create consciousness artificially. Sir Roger Penrose a Nobel laureate in physics even has an idea on that. He is trying to approach it not on the neuron level but on the quantum level. I don't know how much they will succeed.

There are lot of things happening in scientific community in regard to the brain. Elon Musk company Neuralink is working on research to put chips in the brain. I don't know how healthy are these things. It might create more problems rather than fixing things.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2021, 10:14:08 AM by raushan »

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Member
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: jed mckenna books
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2021, 01:53:14 PM »
Hi Raushan,

Quote
Oh. So now I can understand few things that I saw in the movies.

I wasn't trying to diminish your sense of loss at not doing things you've seen in movies. I'm sorry if it came across that way. It was an exceptional set of circumstances that allowed me to practice with those masters, yet all of them were basically teaching mindfulness in action - something which helps us translate the experience of practice into experience in life. The examples I gave such as washing the dishes may not be as exciting as shooting bows, yet the profundity of applying mindfulness to them works just as effectively. In reality, letting go of any excitement is key to finding the mindful state and let go of expectation in all these practices. In Kyudo, hitting the target isn't the goal. It might happen, yet equanimity towards outcome is the true goal.

Penrose is certainly very interesting. He first publicly introduced his theories about the mind and consciousness having a quantum element, and therefore not being possible to reproduce in general purpose Turing-complete computers, in his 1989 book "The Emperor's New Mind". Only now that we have Qubit quantum computing devices is he able to practically explore his theories from that time. His work might change the understanding of both physics and consciousness.

Yet, as with all other attempts to reproduce consciousness in machines, I have a sense that our lack of understanding of the fundamentals of both the universe and consciousness will be obstacles. How do we reproduce something that is not understood? We can approximate ever closer facsimiles which produce closer and closer outcomes, yet that isn't going to produce consciousness. I suspect consciousness (at least anything approaching human consciousness, including self-awareness) needs to be embodied with sense data and actions as outcomes. 

As you well know most of what people call AI is not really intelligence at all; it is the application of pattern matching algorithms to large data sets. The maths behind this hasn't really made great jumps in over four decades, it's just that until the last ten years or so computing power and storage were too expensive for widespread exploration and deployment of these mathematical processes.

As regards Elon Musk, I think he just proved how out of touch with reality he is. He announced, to counter arguments he shouldn't be so wealthy, that he is building up the resources to make us a multi planetary species. He doesn't seem to recognise that this inherently means deploying fewer resources to make our habitation of this planet sustainable.

Certain Silicon valley companies and thought leaders, including people close to Musk, have a vision of overcoming human suffering by making the virtual world more enjoyable, so that people can escape the things in life they find unsatisfactory or that cause suffering. This is the circuses part of that old saying attributed to the Roman poet Juvenal - I find it contrary in theory and personal experience to the real cure.
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

raushan

  • Member
  • from India
    • S. N. Goenka switched to Samatha Forest Tradition
Re: jed mckenna books
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2021, 03:24:08 PM »


I wasn't trying to diminish your sense of loss at not doing things you've seen in movies. I'm sorry if it came across that way. It was an exceptional set of circumstances that allowed me to practice with those masters, yet all of them were basically teaching mindfulness in action - something which helps us translate the experience of practice into experience in life. The examples I gave such as washing the dishes may not be as exciting as shooting bows, yet the profundity of applying mindfulness to them works just as effectively. In reality, letting go of any excitement is key to finding the mindful state and let go of expectation in all these practices. In Kyudo, hitting the target isn't the goal. It might happen, yet equanimity towards outcome is the true goal.


No, Matthew, I didn't take it that way. I meant that I have read some books where Author has described wielding swords as the same as making awesome tea. If one is a great swordsman then he can become a great painter too. I didn't understand at those times why is it so. Now you have mentioned so I had some understanding.

Also, my motivation to start the meditation was very much influenced by what I saw in Martial arts movies. But since I joined the journey it has been quite different. Didn't expect all these things at all. Doesn't seem to be going what was shown in the movies.

Quote

Penrose is certainly very interesting. He first publicly introduced his theories about the mind and consciousness having a quantum element, and therefore not being possible to reproduce in general purpose Turing-complete computers, in his 1989 book "The Emperor's New Mind". Only now that we have Qubit quantum computing devices is he able to practically explore his theories from that time. His work might change the understanding of both physics and consciousness.

Yet, as with all other attempts to reproduce consciousness in machines, I have a sense that our lack of understanding of the fundamentals of both the universe and consciousness will be obstacles. How do we reproduce something that is not understood? We can approximate ever closer facsimiles which produce closer and closer outcomes, yet that isn't going to produce consciousness. I suspect consciousness (at least anything approaching human consciousness, including self-awareness) needs to be embodied with sense data and actions as outcomes. 

As you well know most of what people call AI is not really intelligence at all; it is the application of pattern matching algorithms to large data sets. The maths behind this hasn't really made great jumps in over four decades, it's just that until the last ten years or so computing power and storage were too expensive for widespread exploration and deployment of these mathematical processes.

As regards Elon Musk, I think he just proved how out of touch with reality he is. He announced, to counter arguments he shouldn't be so wealthy, that he is building up the resources to make us a multi planetary species. He doesn't seem to recognise that this inherently means deploying fewer resources to make our habitation of this planet sustainable.

Certain Silicon valley companies and thought leaders, including people close to Musk, have a vision of overcoming human suffering by making the virtual world more enjoyable, so that people can escape the things in life they find unsatisfactory or that cause suffering. This is the circuses part of that old saying attributed to the Roman poet Juvenal - I find it contrary in theory and personal experience to the real cure.

I didn't know Penrose's theory was so old. Yes, I have seen some videos regarding it. They have made progress but still in the early stage. It is not popular among scientific communities yet. Yeah, I feel the same what neuroscientist does is to put wires in the brain and then measure. But the brain overall is quite different. I don't think a machine can become enlightened.

Machine Learning may memorize things and do based on memory but developing self-awareness and all I agree scientists lack that understanding. Meditation and Mindfulness these things don't come under the realm of Western science. It is a self experiential thing.
Yeah, I agree Ai currently is just the clever use of mathematics. It is not close to Human Brain at all. But Research is definitely going.

Yes about silicon valley lot of big companies are definitely wasting people's time a lot for their own personal gain. And making people miserable, depressed. People do things in their life so that they can look cool on Instagram photos.

Kids are feeling like Fighters by shooting villains in the Video games.

 

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