[ Goenka Vipassana Tradition ] Why does this technique scan the body?

[dhammaseeker]

DISCLAIMER:  The purpose of this post is to clarify why the Goenka meditation tradition scan the body. The purpose is NOT to undermine other techniques or schools of thought.

Came a cross some posts where people have asked why the body is scanned in the Goenka tradition. I hope the following satisfies the curiosity of people who do not follow this tradition.

In the Goenka technique, bodily sensations (vedana) play a major role in the psychological programming of human beings. Every action, mental state has a corresponding sensation (vedana). For good or worse, these psychological habit patterns, colour an individuals personality and interactions with  itself, others and its environment. How?

Here is analogy with a flicker book ( analogies are a risky affair, take it with a pinch of salt ). Imagine the steps below in the 'Chain of Conditioned Arising ' ( Paticca Samuppada Sutta, Sumyutta Nikaya XII ) as an INFINITE flicker book:-

a)  Each page represents a step on the flicker book ( see 'Chain of Conditioned Arising' below ).
b) The text on each page represents all the pertinent details related to that specific step.
c). The pages can only transition sequentially to the next page if the previous page exists. Otherwise, the next page begins at step 1.

Now imagine this flicker book simulates you and that each grouping of steps 1 - 10 represents a single instance of you (mind and body phenomena ) for an imperceptibly small fraction of a second. Because  of your psychologically conditioned state (due to  ignorance ), these steps keep repeating. The flicker book (you), keeps flickering. On each instance your falling in and out of existence (the death of your mind-body phenomena ). So basically, your a flickering stream of  birth - death, birth - death, birth - death, birth - death, birth - death, etc. These transitions happen at such an imperceptibly rapid speed that they give you the false impression that you are a solid constant entity with a permanent self.

What is a vedana (sensation)?

With regards to this technique, a vedana, is any tactile physiological or biochemical reaction that you are able to feel. If you can physically feel it, it's a sensation. There is a whole spectrum of sensations from the gross (easily felt) to extremely subtle ones (that need further training and progress to feel ). Whenever you  interact with any external sensory object (a vision, a sound, a smell, a taste or tactile thing),  whether its an inanimate or living thing (another person / animal ), you generate a corresponding vedana (sensation). Note here, you're never directly interacting with the external object itself, only to the sensory datum that you receive from your senses or mind (thoughts, imagination, emotions). You don't like the look of a particular person. It's not the person that you hate but the sensation that this visual representation of this person that you recognise and so on for all the other various situations you come across. An alcoholic is not addicted to alcohol but to the sensations that results from consuming the alcohol. You dislike a particular trail of thought that has arisen. Its the actual sensations that correspond to these thoughts that you dislike, that you are reacting to.

Chain of Conditioned Arising

Forward Order:

1. With the base of ignorance, reaction arises;
2. with the base of reaction, consciousness arises;
3. with the base of consciousness, mind and body arise;
4. with the base of mind and body, the six senses arise;
5. with the base of the six senses, contact arises;
6. with the base of contact, sensation arises;
7. with the base of sensation, craving and aversion arise;
8. with the base of craving and aversion,attachment arises;
9. with the base of attachment, the processoff becoming arises;
10. with the base of the process of becoming, birth arises;
11. with the base of birth, ageing  and death arise, together with sorrow,
lamentation, physical and mental sufferingsandd tribulations.
Thus arises this entire mass of suffering

The important question is how do you break this cycle? At what point in the cycle is it most effective?

Look at steps 7 to 9: ( 7 ) with the base of sensation, craving and aversion arise, ( 8 ) with the base of craving and aversion, attachment arises; ( 9 ) with the base of attachment, the process of becoming arises.

If you can train yourself to observe these sensations without reacting to them you break the chain for that particular group of conditioned states (back to analogy: those pages that proceed step 7. Imagine you rip out pages corresponding to steps 7 to 10). Then the process continues with another psychological habit pattern that gives rise to another set of conditioned steps 1 to 10 ( generating new pages in the flicker book analogy). You have stored up trillions upon trillions of these conditioned states that will keep multiplying every time you react to their corresponding sensation. Remember, as well as having a huge storage of these conditioned states you are also creating new ones every time you react to their corresponding sensation.

You cannot choose which sensations arise. When they arise and where on the body they arise. This is why you have to scan the entire body. If you don't scan the entire body, you will fail to observe that particular sensation and allow it to multiply and add to the existing store of psychological habits / reactions, etc.

This is not to be blindly accepted but to be experienced. It must be result orientated. If through your daily meditation and daily life you've noticed the benefits of observing your sensations then the results speak for themselves. No ones perfect. You'll make many mistakes. Persistence is the key. Gradually, you'll notice small steps to an improved life (your more chilled and happier until you react to something inappropriately ).

Also, Anapana ( breath observation) and metta bhavana (loving kindness meditation) have a huge influence on your ability to handle difficult situations (with it's corresponding sensation).

There's a lot more to say but I'll leave it here (e.g. emotions also have corresponding tactile sensations that indirectly allow you to observe emotional states / mental dispositions ).

[raushan]

I have forgotten what Goenka said exactly as it's been a long time since I went to retreat. But what you have written does not make sense at all. Sensation si just one part of whole body and mind. Everything is interconnected. Sensations, feeling, thoughts. If you just keep looking at sensation you might miss the other things.

That's why all the Goenka students I meet only thing talk about is sensation and sankhara. They don't seem to have the knowledge of thoughts, feelings.

[dhammaseeker]

Hi raushan.

There was an old black and white film. Can't remember the name. It was quite along while ago. Gregory Peck played this catholic priest. One dialogue uttered by him had struck a chord with me.

"It's not the song but the singer that counts".

It doesn't matter what school of thought you belong to.What matters is how you eventually manage to carry yourself, when you mature in your particular school of thought. There is no such thing as one glove fits all meditative technique. We're all unique individuals with varied life experiences and outlooks. It would be extremely short-sighted of me to expect everyone to adopt the Goenka tradition without exception. That would be plain wrong. It would be equally wrong for someone to claim that the Goenka tradition is unfit for purpose because it doesn't fit their particular brand of meditative philosophy.  We're all different. We can still learn and get inspiration from each other. Our meditative techniques may vary but we can still share strategies on how to cope with things when we get stuck in a rut with our meditation practice.

I appreciate the effort you made to respond. Thank you very much for your reply. Please accept my apology if I have  unintentionally said something that may have offended you. If not, all is well

Sincerely hope you prosper on your path with the Samatha Forest Tradition.

With metta ds.

[dharma bum]

I have forgotten what Goenka said exactly as it's been a long time since I went to retreat. But what you have written does not make sense at all. Sensation si just one part of whole body and mind. Everything is interconnected. Sensations, feeling, thoughts. If you just keep looking at sensation you might miss the other things.

I think what they're saying is that feelings and thoughts manifest in the form of sensations. So when you are angry, you might feel a tightening of the muscles. For many years I just did not understand the concept of sankhara. Then recently I realized the modern word for it is sanskar, which can be translated as conditioning. Now I understand the whole idea better.

When I attend the Goenka retreats, even though the focus in the instructions appear to be on the sensations, I find that it is most natural to also note the thoughts and feelings. That is the reason why I find all these different techniques kind of work the same way for me because my mind does more or less the same thing. Maybe I am not such a good student. haha.

[Laurent]

The greater problem i find in Goenka's discourses is the confusion with vedana and physical sensations. Vedana is not only tactile sensations, it is 5 senses sensations all along the Sutta. I find the technique itself great though !

[Siddharth]

DISCLAIMER:  The purpose of this post is to clarify why the Goenka meditation tradition scan the body. The purpose is NOT to undermine other techniques or schools of thought.

Came a cross some posts where people have asked why the body is scanned in the Goenka tradition. I hope the following satisfies the curiosity of people who do not follow this tradition.

In the Goenka technique, bodily sensations (vedana) play a major role in the psychological programming of human beings. Every action, mental state has a corresponding sensation (vedana). For good or worse, these psychological habit patterns, colour an individuals personality and interactions with  itself, others and its environment. How?

Here is analogy with a flicker book ( analogies are a risky affair, take it with a pinch of salt ). Imagine the steps below in the 'Chain of Conditioned Arising ' ( Paticca Samuppada Sutta, Sumyutta Nikaya XII ) as an INFINITE flicker book:-

a)  Each page represents a step on the flicker book ( see 'Chain of Conditioned Arising' below ).
b) The text on each page represents all the pertinent details related to that specific step.
c). The pages can only transition sequentially to the next page if the previous page exists. Otherwise, the next page begins at step 1.

Now imagine this flicker book simulates you and that each grouping of steps 1 - 10 represents a single instance of you (mind and body phenomena ) for an imperceptibly small fraction of a second. Because  of your psychologically conditioned state (due to  ignorance ), these steps keep repeating. The flicker book (you), keeps flickering. On each instance your falling in and out of existence (the death of your mind-body phenomena ). So basically, your a flickering stream of  birth - death, birth - death, birth - death, birth - death, birth - death, etc. These transitions happen at such an imperceptibly rapid speed that they give you the false impression that you are a solid constant entity with a permanent self.

What is a vedana (sensation)?

With regards to this technique, a vedana, is any tactile physiological or biochemical reaction that you are able to feel. If you can physically feel it, it's a sensation. There is a whole spectrum of sensations from the gross (easily felt) to extremely subtle ones (that need further training and progress to feel ). Whenever you  interact with any external sensory object (a vision, a sound, a smell, a taste or tactile thing),  whether its an inanimate or living thing (another person / animal ), you generate a corresponding vedana (sensation). Note here, you're never directly interacting with the external object itself, only to the sensory datum that you receive from your senses or mind (thoughts, imagination, emotions). You don't like the look of a particular person. It's not the person that you hate but the sensation that this visual representation of this person that you recognise and so on for all the other various situations you come across. An alcoholic is not addicted to alcohol but to the sensations that results from consuming the alcohol. You dislike a particular trail of thought that has arisen. Its the actual sensations that correspond to these thoughts that you dislike, that you are reacting to.

Chain of Conditioned Arising

Forward Order:

1. With the base of ignorance, reaction arises;
2. with the base of reaction, consciousness arises;
3. with the base of consciousness, mind and body arise;
4. with the base of mind and body, the six senses arise;
5. with the base of the six senses, contact arises;
6. with the base of contact, sensation arises;
7. with the base of sensation, craving and aversion arise;
8. with the base of craving and aversion,attachment arises;
9. with the base of attachment, the processoff becoming arises;
10. with the base of the process of becoming, birth arises;
11. with the base of birth, ageing  and death arise, together with sorrow,
lamentation, physical and mental sufferingsandd tribulations.
Thus arises this entire mass of suffering

The important question is how do you break this cycle? At what point in the cycle is it most effective?

Look at steps 7 to 9: ( 7 ) with the base of sensation, craving and aversion arise, ( 8 ) with the base of craving and aversion, attachment arises; ( 9 ) with the base of attachment, the process of becoming arises.

If you can train yourself to observe these sensations without reacting to them you break the chain for that particular group of conditioned states (back to analogy: those pages that proceed step 7. Imagine you rip out pages corresponding to steps 7 to 10). Then the process continues with another psychological habit pattern that gives rise to another set of conditioned steps 1 to 10 ( generating new pages in the flicker book analogy). You have stored up trillions upon trillions of these conditioned states that will keep multiplying every time you react to their corresponding sensation. Remember, as well as having a huge storage of these conditioned states you are also creating new ones every time you react to their corresponding sensation.

You cannot choose which sensations arise. When they arise and where on the body they arise. This is why you have to scan the entire body. If you don't scan the entire body, you will fail to observe that particular sensation and allow it to multiply and add to the existing store of psychological habits / reactions, etc.

This is not to be blindly accepted but to be experienced. It must be result orientated. If through your daily meditation and daily life you've noticed the benefits of observing your sensations then the results speak for themselves. No ones perfect. You'll make many mistakes. Persistence is the key. Gradually, you'll notice small steps to an improved life (your more chilled and happier until you react to something inappropriately ).

Also, Anapana ( breath observation) and metta bhavana (loving kindness meditation) have a huge influence on your ability to handle difficult situations (with it's corresponding sensation).

There's a lot more to say but I'll leave it here (e.g. emotions also have corresponding tactile sensations that indirectly allow you to observe emotional states / mental dispositions ).

Dhammaseeker, over the years this forum has had a lot of discussions on goenka method, and ultimately people have said what was there to say in that regard. A lot of people have benefits from the retreats. I have completed 3 of them. But ultimately, there are issues with the method taught, the rigidity of the retreat and other things, which need not be repeated again.

If you are looking to walk the goenka path, this forum (or any forum for that matter according to their 'assistant teachers' ) is not for you, better focus on the weekly group sitting near you, and the two hours of daily meditation they prescribe to practice. Everything else that you are doing according to them is rooted in craving or aversion(which might perfectly be correct, but to each his own).

Understand that people here do not have anything against goenka himself. But it is not what experienced meditators on this forum will endorse or suggest. Currently it is a time where we are not accepting new registrations, and seeing if the existing community can deepen. one of the reasons for this is to avoid repetitive questions which have already been discussed at length, and deepen understanding and practice.

I see that you are active again after end of 2019. What are your expectations, wrt the forum. contemplate and act.

regards and metta,
Siddharth

[dharma bum]

I found Dharmaseeker's explanation of the Goenka technique quite interesting and useful and perhaps it is not well explained by Goenka himself and possibly not well understood by retreat attenders. As I said earlier, it took me a long time to begin to understand the theory. Now I'll need to attend another Goenka retreat to check if my understand of the theory is correct.

Generally I find the body-scanning technique to be quite compatible with other meditation teachers on the internet though they tend to be less strict about many things. Nobody says you have to start from the head and go in this specific order. But in general, body-scanning can help in relaxing the body.

[raushan]

Hi raushan.

There was an old black and white film. Can't remember the name. It was quite along while ago. Gregory Peck played this catholic priest. One dialogue uttered by him had struck a chord with me.

"It's not the song but the singer that counts".

It doesn't matter what school of thought you belong to.What matters is how you eventually manage to carry yourself, when you mature in your particular school of thought. There is no such thing as one glove fits all meditative technique. We're all unique individuals with varied life experiences and outlooks. It would be extremely short-sighted of me to expect everyone to adopt the Goenka tradition without exception. That would be plain wrong. It would be equally wrong for someone to claim that the Goenka tradition is unfit for purpose because it doesn't fit their particular brand of meditative philosophy.  We're all different. We can still learn and get inspiration from each other. Our meditative techniques may vary but we can still share strategies on how to cope with things when we get stuck in a rut with our meditation practice.

I appreciate the effort you made to respond. Thank you very much for your reply. Please accept my apology if I have  unintentionally said something that may have offended you. If not, all is well

Sincerely hope you prosper on your path with the Samatha Forest Tradition.

With metta ds.

Hi ds,

Yes I agree it's highly depend on the individual about the progress. Thanks for being understanding. Yes, I agree that We can still learn and get inspiration from each other. Our meditative techniques may vary but we can still share strategies on how to cope with things when we get stuck in a rut with our meditation practice.

With Metta
Raushan

[Middleway]

Chain of Conditioned Arising

Forward Order:

1. With the base of ignorance, reaction arises;
2. with the base of reaction, consciousness arises;
3. with the base of consciousness, mind and body arise;
4. with the base of mind and body, the six senses arise;
5. with the base of the six senses, contact arises;
6. with the base of contact, sensation arises;
7. with the base of sensation, craving and aversion arise;
8. with the base of craving and aversion,attachment arises;
9. with the base of attachment, the processoff becoming arises;
10. with the base of the process of becoming, birth arises;
11. with the base of birth, ageing  and death arise, together with sorrow,
lamentation, physical and mental sufferingsandd tribulations.
Thus arises this entire mass of suffering

1. What is ignorance? How does it arise? what is the base for it?
2. How can reaction arise without mind arising first? How can there be a reaction, if there is no consciousness in the first place?
3. What is consciousness? how does it differ from mind? Should there be a body first for consciousness to arise? how can there be consciousness without the body?

[raushan]

You cannot choose which sensations arise. When they arise and where on the body they arise. This is why you have to scan the entire body. If you don't scan the entire body, you will fail to observe that particular sensation and allow it to multiply and add to the existing store of psychological habits / reactions, etc.

You are basically saying that stop the chain reaction happening in the mind based on thoughts or emotions. I believe that just seeing that it's there is good. When we see a thought/emotion is causing suffering when we see it we automatically let it go. Also when you say that scan the entire body otherwise we will miss the sensation so if our body is dependent on the mind then if the mind is in anger then the whole body should have the sensation of anger so just observing one part of the body should be sufficient. Because if you just know the anger sensation from one part no need to scan the whole body.

So your argument that why do we scan the whole body still doesn't make sense.

[raushan]

Also whatever dhammaseeker has written here. It is nothing from his own experience. If it's not from your experience then what you're writing isn't true. There are a lot of gaps in the whole logic. All the above whatever dhammaseeker talked about has been said by Goenka exactly same way.

How the search of truth goes?

You seek the truth. You see what is going in your mind and body and then when you find something you verify it. Did the truth changed your perspective or not? It should have an impact on your life.

But here dhammaseeker approach is first listen to the truth. Assume(Notice the word assume) it's true because Goenka Ji said so, then do the meditation based on that assumption. Which might later turn out to be true or maybe not.

By your theory the process of meditation is

Assume you are already impure, assume that you have trillions of conditioned state(No need to see whether you are conditioned or not) then do a rigorous process of body scanning to get rid of this conditioned state. The more you sharpen your concentration the more you will penetrate your body. It sounds very similar to doing the penance for your sin mostly performed by the Christians and Hindus. There is nothing in this that leads towards finding the truth.

Why I will believe that I have a lot of sankhara in my body, just because Goenka said so? Why I will believe that everything is impermanent just because Goenka said so.

[dharma bum]

In the Goenka theory, I find the connection between psychological states and sensations to be weak. If you are sitting on a cushion, then you feel the sensation on your butt. This does not reflect any psychological state. It is just a sensory organ like the skin interacting with the environment. In general, however, it is also true that the body's state reflects the mind. Everything has a physiological basis.

But the practice of cultivating a detachment towards the sensations does give benefits. This has something to do with the nature of the mind. When you are detached to sensations, then your mind is in a state of detachment and this detachment extends to everything including your thoughts. In the same way, when your mind is in a state of compassion, then the compassion extends to everyone, to yourself and everyone else.

[raushan]

Maybe you're right. I don't really know the connection between sensation and thoughts yet so I can't really say much. I just felt a lot of things we do in the Goenka Ji method are based on the assumption.

[Siddharth]

Maybe you're right. I don't really know the connection between sensation and thoughts yet so I can't really say much. I just felt a lot of things we do in the Goenka Ji method are based on the assumption.

I guess it is more a matter of faith. and different people can have faith in different things. for example suttas, or the idea that we can infact liberate ourself through the practice of meditation.. or in what goenka ji teached in the 10 day retreat. but as goenka ji himself suggests, faith is important, but should also be backed by evidence, which i guess is what we try to do.

it's like baye's theorum. we need to incrementally test different hypothesis based on experiential evidence, but we all start with assumptions - some known, some unknown.

For me personally, the demands that geonka ji puts in his method - 2 hours of daily practice and a retreat every year as the minimum, is too much of a commitment in this day and age to even say if something works or not. similarly, even what is taught in the 10 day retreat as you have said, requires to make a lot of assumptions which remain untested at experiential level...

[dhammaseeker]

Hello everyone.

Thank you very much for responding to this thread. Did not expect to get a response from so many because the purpose was just to explain why the body is scanned in this tradition.

Currently I'm engaged in some personal matters which are occupying my time. I would greatly appreciate  it if you beautiful human beings would give me an opportunity to have my say when I have gathered my thoughts.

I promise whatever I say will only serve to bring us togather and unite us in harmony rather than discord. I hope you allow me this precious opportunity to be with you rather than against you.

Thank you so much for your continued patience.

may all beings be happy, peaceful, content and eventually become liberated.

much metta ds.

[raushan]

Maybe you're right. I don't really know the connection between sensation and thoughts yet so I can't really say much. I just felt a lot of things we do in the Goenka Ji method are based on the assumption.

I guess it is more a matter of faith. and different people can have faith in different things. for example suttas, or the idea that we can infact liberate ourself through the practice of meditation.. or in what goenka ji teached in the 10 day retreat. but as goenka ji himself suggests, faith is important, but should also be backed by evidence, which i guess is what we try to do.

it's like baye's theorum. we need to incrementally test different hypothesis based on experiential evidence, but we all start with assumptions - some known, some unknown.

For me personally, the demands that geonka ji puts in his method - 2 hours of daily practice and a retreat every year as the minimum, is too much of a commitment in this day and age to even say if something works or not. similarly, even what is taught in the 10 day retreat as you have said, requires to make a lot of assumptions which remain untested at experiential level...

Hi Siddharth,

I agree with you that we need the initial faith at least to start. I don't want to really critique Goenka Ji method much. So many people go to retreat but they find it useful. May be they are getting something out of it.

But from what I have learned till now I find some loopholes in the teaching. Maybe I am wrong because I didn't practice it long enough.

From Goenka Ji lectures it seems that He is skipping the First Noble Truth and the second noble truth. He is doing the job for other people for the first two. It seems he tells believe me you are suffering, believe me, you are conditioned. He also tells the cause of the suffering. Like cause of the suffering is that you are reacting to the sensation. He is giving people a method / a technique for the third noble truth and fourth. Practice this and this is the way out.

But from my experience when I practiced Samatha, we have to discover ourselves the first noble truth, as well as the second noble truth, and the path for third and fourth is within ourselves.

Again this is just my theory. Maybe I will try to verify it in the future. So I am not completing rejecting Goenka Ji method yet.

[yonski3]

I am also old student of the Goenka tradition and while the body scan/sensation philosophy does make certain sense to me, my main issue with this technique is the over controlling and tension that can raise from trying too hard to control the mind going up and down nonstop.

I use to joke with my Vipassana friends that even if enlightenment will come to me during my practice I would tell it to go away because I am too busy now scanning the body.