I think I am bad in dealing with people Any suggestions

[raushan]

Hey Guys

As the title suggests I think I am bad at dealing with people. Even though I meditate regularly. I felt I had some insight which I thought really cool.  I still face the same problem which I used to feel when I was 17-18 years old. Currently, I am 28 years old.

It's difficult for me to have a group of friends who regularly hang out and do stuff like celebrating Birthdays or going to Bar to drink Beer. I have tried to do that but after some time I feel saturated and leave it. Also when I leave it's most of the time out of some reaction. This creates a bad impression. I am moody sometimes purposely I have blocked some of my friends. Sometimes I have not received many calls from my friend who cared for me just because in my mind I thought I am doing some great work and they are disturbing. But in turn, I have felt some great lonely moments. Especially during the pandemic I felt it more.

Also since few months, I am feeling that any social interaction, leaves certain lingering thoughts in the mind. So, I made my social interaction very less.

I have read some books, some biographies, and made a perception out of it that many people who were great were alone. I try to rationalize it but not try to copy it. But I think this isn't working out for me.

Because I find it's also difficult to live alone. Especially in some settings, it's nice to have some acquaintances. And I feel I am at a great loss for not having some friends emotionally as well as in the professional world. In some settings like meditation, reading books we don't need anyone.

Earlier I used to thought that maybe it's due to meditation but now I think I have been facing this situation since childhood due to my personality. And this gap becoming bigger as I am growing older.

I also felt that sometimes we socialize just to escape from our minds. But still, I find overall at a loss.

Have anyone here felt something similar? If anyone knows can you please give some suggestions how to balance it?

[dharma bum]

First of all, everybody needs social interaction. There are very few people in the world who are hermits by nature. I was at a talk yesterday about precisely this thing - loneliness in https://www.amazon.com/Together-Connection-Performance-Greater-Happiness/dp/0062913298/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1WIBHY7OVQN2F&dchild=1&keywords=vivek+murthy+together+book&qid=1614011339&sprefix=vivek+%2Caps%2C198&sr=8-1

What he says is that we can divide our social circles into three categories
1. family and friends we know very well
2. friends and aquanitences
3. social media

He suggests that we consciously spend time in proportion to the closeness of our relationship.

Is it possible for you to regulate your social interactions? Say you go out with friends maybe once a week? That way, your friends know what to expect from you.

When I was your age, I was very socially awkward. I did not know what to say to people or respond to their friendly gestures. Then the awkwardness would haunt me and made me further awkward. This has changed for me - some of it because I am older and dealing with family issues leaves no time for feeling embarrassed, but I also worked on it during meditation. The feeling of embarrassment is transient like everything. Sometimes when I do something embarrassing at work or in life, I tell myself that it is a good training to get over the feeling. You mentioned at one point meditation on death. That should be very helpful too I think. For me, social interaction became easier when I stop thinking too much about it.

[Thanisaro85]

Hi Raushan,

Do you think there is a little of introvert+ mild depression in you?

I maybe wrong but what you described is basically what i am too, and i have both.



Regards

[Siddharth]

Also since few months, I am feeling that any social interaction, leaves certain lingering thoughts in the mind. So, I made my social interaction very less.


Earlier I used to thought that maybe it's due to meditation but now I think I have been facing this situation since childhood due to my personality. And this gap becoming bigger as I am growing older.

I also felt that sometimes we socialize just to escape from our minds. But still, I find overall at a loss.

I feel much of what you write about raushan. In my experience there is significant truth in what you write as well, but given that this awareness is stinging you in some way, one can infer (also relating from personal experience) that there is awareness, but not as much equanimity and compassion.

Yes, almost all our interactions socially potentially leave some trail in our psyche as well as the other person's. Foundationally all of us are suffering and being unskilled in our conduct, we do tend to act so as to ignite something in the other person. But I have found that the answer lies within us. As we see more clearly how at some level everyone is suffering (by watching the nature of our own desires and aversions and ultimately our own suffering), a natural outcome is development of deeper compassion for ourselves and then towards others. (these days I feel that this organic compassion is not towards some person, but towards all the suffering in general, within and without). I found my last retreat much helpful in developing this compassion more deeply, and organically by watching how I am suffering and miserable within.

There are 2 aspects to social interaction : volume of these interactions, and our skill in these.
A short term solution as you are implementing currently is to limit the volume. But as Dharma Bum pointed out, there is a minimum need in all of us for these social interaction to function in a healthy way.
So over time the long term solution lies in developing equanimity and compassion within, so that the lingering thoughts that are remnants of interactions between 2 or more suffering individuals, dampen and cause less (or un-observable) suffering.

It might be a cliche to preach about equanimity and compassion, but that is the best medicine I have practically found. As the foundational truth of dukkha becomes clearer, this tend to develop more naturally as we do not see ourselves and others, but suffering within everyone towards which we direct our compassion.

Even if you cut out social interactions, there is enough suffering within ourselves, to give our being a nice spanking every once in a while. If we socialize to escape our minds, cutting out social interaction can be also seen as escaping into our mind to cut out social interactions. Try to observe this more often, and direct compassion towards this innate nature of suffering that has all of us entangled. Imagine the individual as an apple on a tree connected through the branches and stems of suffering with all the other apples. Compassion as you see this will become directed towards the tree, rather than any apple.
Similarly the lingering thoughts are but the part of this whole tree like entangled state of our being rather than some communication specifically.

You might also benefit from a little retreat time if that seems doable...
in Metta,
Siddharth

[raushan]

First of all, everybody needs social interaction. There are very few people in the world who are hermits by nature. I was at a talk yesterday about precisely this thing - loneliness in https://www.amazon.com/Together-Connection-Performance-Greater-Happiness/dp/0062913298/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1WIBHY7OVQN2F&dchild=1&keywords=vivek+murthy+together+book&qid=1614011339&sprefix=vivek+%2Caps%2C198&sr=8-1

What he says is that we can divide our social circles into three categories
1. family and friends we know very well
2. friends and aquanitences
3. social media

He suggests that we consciously spend time in proportion to the closeness of our relationship.

Is it possible for you to regulate your social interactions? Say you go out with friends maybe once a week? That way, your friends know what to expect from you.

When I was your age, I was very socially awkward. I did not know what to say to people or respond to their friendly gestures. Then the awkwardness would haunt me and made me further awkward. This has changed for me - some of it because I am older and dealing with family issues leaves no time for feeling embarrassed, but I also worked on it during meditation. The feeling of embarrassment is transient like everything. Sometimes when I do something embarrassing at work or in life, I tell myself that it is a good training to get over the feeling. You mentioned at one point meditation on death. That should be very helpful too I think. For me, social interaction became easier when I stop thinking too much about it.

Hi dharma bum,

Thanks for your response. I will definitely read that book. Since it helped you I guess it will help me too. Yes I think so I can regulate it. But it's not easy. When a group cumulatively does many things and if I being an exception participate only in few things. People misinterpret it. Maybe I have been meeting wrong kind of people. But I have seen in general they want you to be normal like them. I think there is some issue within me also that I need to work on. I have tendency to judge people on small things.

Meditation on death makes me more anxious sometimes. So I do it less frequently. But I agree it is helpful.

I do take jokes seriously. Can get offended easily. I should work on that probably. Keeping equanimity may help.

Really helpful advice.

[raushan]

Hi Raushan,

Do you think there is a little of introvert+ mild depression in you?

I maybe wrong but what you described is basically what i am too, and i have both.



Regards

Hi Thanisaro85,

I know I am an introvert. I even took Myers Briggs personality test. It came up INTJ. Many qualities match. But I don't want to label it.

I have faced time to time Anxiety and sometimes low mood, sadness. In the past, it was more. Meditation helped me to see the causes of some of my anxiety. I think lockdown may have contributed it more. But I feel I become depressive when I purposely cut out my social interactions for long time.

Can you tell me what do you do then? How do you deal with it? Any suggestion would be helpful.

Regards

[raushan]

I feel much of what you write about raushan. In my experience there is significant truth in what you write as well, but given that this awareness is stinging you in some way, one can infer (also relating from personal experience) that there is awareness, but not as much equanimity and compassion.

Yes, almost all our interactions socially potentially leave some trail in our psyche as well as the other person's. Foundationally all of us are suffering and being unskilled in our conduct, we do tend to act so as to ignite something in the other person. But I have found that the answer lies within us. As we see more clearly how at some level everyone is suffering (by watching the nature of our own desires and aversions and ultimately our own suffering), a natural outcome is development of deeper compassion for ourselves and then towards others. (these days I feel that this organic compassion is not towards some person, but towards all the suffering in general, within and without). I found my last retreat much helpful in developing this compassion more deeply, and organically by watching how I am suffering and miserable within.

There are 2 aspects to social interaction : volume of these interactions, and our skill in these.
A short term solution as you are implementing currently is to limit the volume. But as Dharma Bum pointed out, there is a minimum need in all of us for these social interaction to function in a healthy way.
So over time the long term solution lies in developing equanimity and compassion within, so that the lingering thoughts that are remnants of interactions between 2 or more suffering individuals, dampen and cause less (or un-observable) suffering.

Hi Siddharth,

That is a very well thought answer. I guess you are right about the equanimity part. Also the long term solution will be more beneficial for my overall well being. Trailing thoughts comes there because I think there are some reactions going on the deeper level which I am not aware of. I have tried to cut out the interactions also because I fear that it will influence my own ideas. But I guess I have to learn to live like a lotus.

It might be a cliche to preach about equanimity and compassion, but that is the best medicine I have practically found. As the foundational truth of dukkha becomes clearer, this tend to develop more naturally as we do not see ourselves and others, but suffering within everyone towards which we direct our compassion.

Even if you cut out social interactions, there is enough suffering within ourselves, to give our being a nice spanking every once in a while. If we socialize to escape our minds, cutting out social interaction can be also seen as escaping into our mind to cut out social interactions. Try to observe this more often, and direct compassion towards this innate nature of suffering that has all of us entangled. Imagine the individual as an apple on a tree connected through the branches and stems of suffering with all the other apples. Compassion as you see this will become directed towards the tree, rather than any apple.
Similarly the lingering thoughts are but the part of this whole tree like entangled state of our being rather than some communication specifically.

You might also benefit from a little retreat time if that seems doable...

in Metta,
Siddharth

You are also right about the part cutting out social interaction is also escaping. It is also the action based on fear. It's true the same suffering is present in everyone. If we have compassion for our own suffering it will be transferrable to others. I will contemplate more on that. I guess it will make my interactions more pleasant.

Thanks for your response. Really helpful.

in Metta
Raushan

[Thanisaro85]

[


Can you tell me what do you do then? How do you deal with it? Any suggestion would be helpful.

Regards

Hi Raushan,

I am not sure if my way helps but this is how i deal with it, i know it is quite general or obvious.

That is just acceptance of who i am.

I've learnt to accept myself as introvert, being that means understanding my strength is not so much about mixing in a group and able to chat happily non stop over beer sessions. I know that i will probably stopped in a hot conversations cold. And i just let it be.  And i learnt not to feel bad about it. I learnt that is just me.

I choose to be content about every moment( with mindfulness) as long as i am alive, get to eat, get to play my guitar. Get to joke with unknown guitarists in FB. My Facebook does not have a profile pic so people dun get judgemental with me. I wrote simple compliments words and like some posts with genuine wishing and some reciprocate with kind words, and i just tell myself to continue like this, i felt happy and hope they are happy too. Simple as that.

By saying that i have stop yearning for a group of close friends or relatives. I tried for years but that just don't happened. Instead of saying give up or feeling hopeless i am learning to be independent emotionally.

My wife, she does not have any friends or close colleagues, she doesn't feet lonely. She can have her meal alone during work break, just watching her mobile for drama and she spent her day like that. She does not feels lonely even she is alone. I am learning to be her.

She is good at making herself busy( unintentionally) which does not allow emptiness( not in meditation sense)to crept in.

People like me who have depression tends to feel lonely.

Hope u can grasp the way i am living now...

[Dhamma]

Hi Raushan,

I am not sure if my way helps but this is how i deal with it, i know it is quite general or obvious.

That is just acceptance of who i am.

I've learnt to accept myself as introvert, being that means understanding my strength is not so much about mixing in a group and able to chat happily non stop over beer sessions. I know that i will probably stopped in a hot conversations cold. And i just let it be.  And i learnt not to feel bad about it. I learnt that is just me.

I choose to be content about every moment( with mindfulness) as long as i am alive, get to eat, get to play my guitar. Get to joke with unknown guitarists in FB. My Facebook does not have a profile pic so people dun get judgemental with me. I wrote simple compliments words and like some posts with genuine wishing and some reciprocate with kind words, and i just tell myself to continue like this, i felt happy and hope they are happy too. Simple as that.

By saying that i have stop yearning for a group of close friends or relatives. I tried for years but that just don't happened. Instead of saying give up or feeling hopeless i am learning to be independent emotionally.

My wife, she does not have any friends or close colleagues, she doesn't feet lonely. She can have her meal alone during work break, just watching her mobile for drama and she spent her day like that. She does not feels lonely even she is alone. I am learning to be her.

She is good at making herself busy( unintentionally) which does not allow emptiness( not in meditation sense)to crept in.

People like me who have depression tends to feel lonely.

Hope u can grasp the way i am living now...

Dear Thanisaro,

That was an excellent post. I will tell you why.

You allude to something that is most important: in the end, we are all an island. The Buddha taught this. We look for the external world and for other people to make us happy. But, again, in the end, all we have is our minds. We have to learn to be alone and how to make best friends with ourselves.  We must not cling to others, even those we love dearly, which is very, very difficult.

By the way, that is great that your wife knows how to be content and peaceful while being alone. That is fantastic!

Peace and enlightenment, dear friend.

[Middleway]

Thanisaro made a very good point about loneliness versus being alone.

Being alone is not same as lonely. Lonely is for ego-self. This ego-self
craves and wants. Be it attention, love, fame, you name it. Being alone has a totally different quality. There is no wanting in aloneness. There is contentment in aloneness.

So, observe the wanting of the lonely ego-self without resisting or embracing. And watch loneliness transform into aloneness.

[raushan]

Hi Raushan,

I am not sure if my way helps but this is how i deal with it, i know it is quite general or obvious.

That is just acceptance of who i am.

I've learnt to accept myself as introvert, being that means understanding my strength is not so much about mixing in a group and able to chat happily non stop over beer sessions. I know that i will probably stopped in a hot conversations cold. And i just let it be.  And i learnt not to feel bad about it. I learnt that is just me.

Thanks for sharing it Thanisaro85.

I really liked this part. For some, it comes naturally.  I do have a lack of equanimity in this area. It still hurt me.

I choose to be content about every moment( with mindfulness) as long as i am alive, get to eat, get to play my guitar. Get to joke with unknown guitarists in FB. My Facebook does not have a profile pic so people dun get judgemental with me. I wrote simple compliments words and like some posts with genuine wishing and some reciprocate with kind words, and i just tell myself to continue like this, i felt happy and hope they are happy too. Simple as that.

By saying that i have stop yearning for a group of close friends or relatives. I tried for years but that just don't happened. Instead of saying give up or feeling hopeless i am learning to be independent emotionally.

My wife, she does not have any friends or close colleagues, she doesn't feet lonely. She can have her meal alone during work break, just watching her mobile for drama and she spent her day like that. She does not feels lonely even she is alone. I am learning to be her.

She is good at making herself busy( unintentionally) which does not allow emptiness( not in meditation sense)to crept in.

People like me who have depression tends to feel lonely.

Hope u can grasp the way i am living now...

I can relate to that part completely. In the past also I have tried hard to be social and to be extrovert like others. That also led me pain. That's why now I am trying to find a balance between the two.

I know I can't really behave like others. That's not me.

I really liked the idea of your wife. That's interesting. Something to be learned from.

Regards

[raushan]

Thanisaro made a very good point about loneliness versus being alone.

Being alone is not same as lonely. Lonely is for ego-self. This ego-self
craves and wants. Be it attention, love, fame, you name it. Being alone has a totally different quality. There is no wanting in aloneness. There is contentment in aloneness.

So, observe the wanting of the lonely ego-self without resisting or embracing. And watch loneliness transform into aloneness.

Thanks Middleway for your wisdom. I should contemplate more on that. I will observe the feeling of lonliness.

[dharma bum]

Thanks for your response. I will definitely read that book. Since it helped you I guess it will help me too.

Hi Raushan, I haven't read the book myself, but I thought the idea of regulating your social interactions consciously might be helpful to you.

Everybody has made excellent points in this thread imo. All of them are useful and complement one another.

1. It is helpful to cultivate contentment in your own company.
2. It is good to have compassion for yourself and others.
3. It is good to be equanimous towards transient feelings.

[Siddharth]

I came across this quote from Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. It might be of value:

1. When you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: The people I deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly. They are like this because they can’t tell good from evil. But I have seen the beauty of good, and the ugliness of evil, and have recognized that the wrongdoer has a nature related to my own—not of the same blood or birth, but the same mind, and possessing a share of the divine. And so none of them can hurt me. No one can implicate me in ugliness. Nor can I feel angry at my relative,or hate him. We were born to work together like feet, hands, and eyes,like the two rows of teeth, upper and lower. To obstruct each other isunnatural. To feel anger at someone, to turn your back on him: these are obstructions.

[raushan]

Hi Raushan, I haven't read the book myself, but I thought the idea of regulating your social interactions consciously might be helpful to you.

Everybody has made excellent points in this thread imo. All of them are useful and complement one another.

1. It is helpful to cultivate contentment in your own company.
2. It is good to have compassion for yourself and others.
3. It is good to be equanimous towards transient feelings.

Very well summarized dharma bum. You are right about it. Yes I might learn something from that book.

[raushan]

Hi Siddharth,

Thanks for sharing that quote. It is to the point. Some of the great wisdom is written in Stoic philosophy similar to Buddhism. I have read books by Seneca and Marcus Aurelius have to read them again.

I guess Buddha won't have any problem living with people or staying alone. I separate myself from people because I think they are the problem but when I get separated I start longing for them. So there is some understanding that is lacking in my mind. I am escaping from something. I will investigate into it more. And I won't run away from people or situation if difficulty arises.

[stillpointdancer]

I read quite a lot of the stoics. You can tease out stuff which wouldn't be out of place in the Dharma, but you also have to ignore a lot that doesn't really belong there. In terms of dealing with people it depends on what you want out of your practice. Do you want to remove yourself from people to concentrate on the practice,or do you want to be around people to bring your practice into the world? It's like the story of honesty vs theft. Anyone can be honest when there is nothing to steal. Anyone can think they have made progress until the real world impinges itself on them.

[dharma bum]

I guess Buddha won't have any problem living with people or staying alone.

I think the Dhammapada says that we must seek the company of wise people and stay away from fools.

Typically there is something we like about everybody and something we dislike. We can examine our reasons for disliking or liking people. Do we like people because they say nice things about us? Do we dislike them because they are negative and bad-mouth others? Do we like someone because they are good-natured and generous?

All these things can and should be meditated upon. I think some reasons for liking people and disliking people are better than others.

[raushan]

I read quite a lot of the stoics. You can tease out stuff which wouldn't be out of place in the Dharma, but you also have to ignore a lot that doesn't really belong there. In terms of dealing with people it depends on what you want out of your practice. Do you want to remove yourself from people to concentrate on the practice,or do you want to be around people to bring your practice into the world? It's like the story of honesty vs theft. Anyone can be honest when there is nothing to steal. Anyone can think they have made progress until the real world impinges itself on them.

Hi SPD,

I agree stoic Philosophers were great leaders like but they were not enlightened. So not everything matches with Buddhism what they have written.

As I am also in the professional world I am not a monk so it's necessary for me to interact with people. I agree sometimes we live under the illusion that we know things but it crumbles sometimes.

[raushan]

I guess Buddha won't have any problem living with people or staying alone.

I think the Dhammapada says that we must seek the company of wise people and stay away from fools.

Typically there is something we like about everybody and something we dislike. We can examine our reasons for disliking or liking people. Do we like people because they say nice things about us? Do we dislike them because they are negative and bad-mouth others? Do we like someone because they are good-natured and generous?

All these things can and should be meditated upon. I think some reasons for liking people and disliking people are better than others.

Hi dharma bum,

I agree with this quote and tried to apply it in real life but it's not always practical. Sometimes wise people do not want to be with you. I mean they will have tons of other works to do and I might be insignificant to them.

What you said is right. I guess I have to develop my understanding more towards me as well as towards other people.

[Dhamma]

I guess Buddha won't have any problem living with people or staying alone.

I think the Dhammapada says that we must seek the company of wise people and stay away from fools.

Absolutely!

Yuttadhammo Bhikku talks specifically about this in some of his Youtube videos.

But, in the end, socialization has little use unless we are socializing to help each other live out the Dhamma, or to help someone be happier, etc.

Peace and enlightenment.

[raushan]

Absolutely!

Yuttadhammo Bhikku talks specifically about this in some of his Youtube videos.

But, in the end, socialization has little use unless we are socializing to help each other live out the Dhamma, or to help someone be happier, etc.

Peace and enlightenment.

Agree with you. Hope I reach that level of seriousness. But I think I am not there yet. It might be difficult for lay people. In Suttas Buddha specifically recommended some of the Samanas to go to forrest and do meditation in silence.

Buddha himself left everything behind. But He still had few friends with him for some years.

[raushan]

Some lines from SUtta on friends/companion::

Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This is half of the holy life, lord: admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie."[1]

"Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path.

'With regard to external factors, I don't envision any other single factor like admirable friendship as doing so much for a monk in training, who has not attained the heart's goal but remains intent on the unsurpassed safety from bondage. A monk who is a friend with admirable people abandons what is unskillful and develops what is skillful.'[4]

'And what is meant by admirable friendship? There is the case where a lay person, in whatever town or village he may dwell, spends time with householders or householders' sons, young or old, who are advanced in virtue. He talks with them, engages them in discussions. He emulates consummate conviction in those who are consummate in conviction, consummate virtue in those who are consummate in virtue, consummate generosity in those who are consummate in generosity, and consummate discernment in those who are consummate in discernment. This is called admirable friendship.'[5]

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[Dhamma]

As I am also in the professional world I am not a monk so it's necessary for me to interact with people. I agree sometimes we live under the illusion that we know things but it crumbles sometimes.

Are you talking to me?   I think I know something to find out later I didn't know anything at all.

Matthew put me in my place to make me aware of this. I threw a hissy fit, but he only did it for my own good. He was right: My ego and too much speculation was getting in the way for any kind of real clarity.

Hey, I will admit a I learned a few things along the way, but not very much. 


 

[raushan]

Are you talking to me?   I think I know something to find out later I didn't know anything at all.

    It's applicable to everyone until we get enlightened. I know myself and there is so much ignorance in me. I guess I don't know the true extent of my ignorance otherwise I would do nothing else just be aware of everything.
If there is someone in our life who can tell what is the actual problem with us it's a great blessing.
There was Buddha that's why everyone felt even the kings that they are ignorant.

Matthew put me in my place to make me aware of this. I threw a hissy fit, but he only did it for my own good. He was right: My ego and too much speculation was getting in the way for any kind of real clarity.

Hey, I will admit a I learned a few things along the way, but not very much. 

  Yes that's true. Even I have learned so many things from Matthew.