Monks in monistries dont look happy alot of the time. Are they?

[Username]

Why cant you hear it on their voice, see it on their face, or see laughter smiles this kind of thing? They are hard core why are the results not more obvious and visible?

The Dali Lama, he is noticeably cheerful, hes laughing upbeat, high in mood.  Most monks I see are not like this.

I know not all pleasurable feeling is visible but there always some signs, very subtle facial expressions (face lights up) and the tone of voice is hard to disguise, you know the overwhelming evidence that I can see in documentaries etc is footage of not especially happy people and that doesn't make any sense because they are the ones that put the most time into this.


Am I wrong if so how?

[raushan]

It's your illusion that you can judge someone from the facial expression. Some people have personalities that they will never laugh even if how happy they are. Stop creating false stories in your mind.

[Username]

You can see subtle things its not as simple as a smile or no smile the eyes light up for example its very minute but u can still see it. So it doesn't matter if the person is humble or not you can only do a poker face so well under the influence of certain feelings.

Secondly you cant disguise tone of voice, you know you dont speak all normal or grumpy in your tone of voice if you feel deep peace or happiness , its flavours your voice.

Im not saying its black and white im right you are wrong. Im saying there's alot of normal state or even negative state "seeming" monks on footage

[raushan]

You are judging people on a very superficial level. You don't know anything about Dalai Lama. You just watched him on tv and made the judgment that he about him. Why don't you go work for the FBI and figure out which ones are the thief?

Yes, eyes expression, tone of voice may help someone to identify a few things about some insecurity but not on the level you are thinking.

If you really want to assess the Buddhist monks go to Thailand or Burma for a retreat of 1 month or 2 months to live with them. If you feel you are wiser than they are. If you don't feel inferior around them then make your judgment. That's how I will do.

I don't want to get into the discussion. I won't answer it further.

[Goofaholix]

I haven't watched a lot of documentaries but I have spent a lot of time in Buddhist monasteries and around Buddhist monks. Generally while they aren't overtly expressive they are among the most contented people I've met, and some have a good sense of humour.

[Username]

You are judging people on a very superficial level. You don't know anything about Dalai Lama. You just watched him on tv and made the judgment that he about him. Why don't you go work for the FBI and figure out which ones are the thief?

Yes, eyes expression, tone of voice may help someone to identify a few things about some insecurity but not on the level you are thinking.

If you really want to assess the Buddhist monks go to Thailand or Burma for a retreat of 1 month or 2 months to live with them. If you feel you are wiser than they are. If you don't feel inferior around them then make your judgment. That's how I will do.

I don't want to get into the discussion. I won't answer it further.

Maybe they are like that (or maybe they are not) , but in the footage they are not, and this is after a life time of hard core meditation. Somethings amiss. Ud expect much better results on camera as well as off. 

[Username]

I haven't watched a lot of documentaries but I have spent a lot of time in Buddhist monasteries and around Buddhist monks. Generally while they aren't overtly expressive they are among the most contented people I've met, and some have a good sense of humour.

Contented isnt very good frankly, considering their massive life sacrifice.  Id have expected better results than that.

Could it be they are not very expressive because they are not overly happy? Rather than some life time commitment to humility? (seems more realistic its hard to hide feelings of happiness, I mean the Dali Lama isnt hiding it)

[dharma bum]

The goal of a Buddhist monk's life is not happiness but liberation from suffering which in the tradition means freedom from desires. Being deeply content is the aim.

But the demeanor of a person depends upon their personality. The DL perhaps by nature and on account of the nature of his job (as a politician) has an extrovert ish, expressive personality. In a different role he might have had a different outward personality.

Unfortunately meditation has come to be associated with 'being Happy' and consequently many people with a public image feel a pressure to convey a happy vibe through their smiles or voice or body language. This is my conjecture - I am not a person who has a public image. When I see a person who seems unusually happy outwardly I start to be suspicious about it. Why is this person so happy? He must be doing drugs. Hehehe. There might be some cultural differences at work.

I spent some time in Dharamshala observing some Tibetan monks. Some seem outwardly happy, some quietly content, some bored etc. I'm not sure you can guess somebody's state of mind from looking at them.

[Goofaholix]

Contented isnt very good frankly, considering their massive life sacrifice.  Id have expected better results than that.

The "happiness" that you expect is generally a surface emotion dependent on causes and conditions, changing according to someones mood or circumstance.  Contentment goes much deeper and remains regardless of circumstances.

I know which I'd rather have.

[Username]

Contented isnt very good frankly, considering their massive life sacrifice.  Id have expected better results than that.

The "happiness" that you expect is generally a surface emotion dependent on causes and conditions, changing according to someones mood or circumstance.  Contentment goes much deeper and remains regardless of circumstances.

I know which I'd rather have.

There are different levels to happiness too deep or surface (depending on the dose ie deeper = more of the chemicals released)  , all of your answers while probably partially true are also partially false, and sound alot like you are identified with the monks and defending them come what may, you dont really care about being honest or objective you are both bound by ego and bias

[Username]

The goal of a Buddhist monk's life is not happiness but liberation from suffering which in the tradition means freedom from desires. Being deeply content is the aim.

But the demeanor of a person depends upon their personality. The DL perhaps by nature and on account of the nature of his job (as a politician) has an extrovert ish, expressive personality. In a different role he might have had a different outward personality.

Unfortunately meditation has come to be associated with 'being Happy' and consequently many people with a public image feel a pressure to convey a happy vibe through their smiles or voice or body language. This is my conjecture - I am not a person who has a public image. When I see a person who seems unusually happy outwardly I start to be suspicious about it. Why is this person so happy? He must be doing drugs. Hehehe. There might be some cultural differences at work.

I spent some time in Dharamshala observing some Tibetan monks. Some seem outwardly happy, some quietly content, some bored etc. I'm not sure you can guess somebody's state of mind from looking at them.

ah so now you have changed your mind, and moved the target some where else, so you agree they are not happy, but now uve moved it to not suffering so I will repeat what i wrote before since you just want to pretend real isnt real. 



Maybe they are NOT SUFFERING  (or maybe they are ) , but in the footage they are a little, and this is after a life time of hard core meditation. Somethings amiss. Ud expect much better results on camera as well as off.



You know again im not saying you gusy are wrong but im also right, the monks seem very likely (based on fair evidence) to have lacklustre results considering the extreme sacrifice

[Middleway]

Username,

Did you ask yourself as to why you care if those monks or happy or unhappy. Why does it matter to you? It is their business, isn't it? You are making these comments because of doubt in your mind. If you are focusing on others whether they are happy with their practice or not, and arguing here in this forum, it will not clear your doubts in your mind.

Why do you think happiness is better than contentment? I suggest you try to understand the difference between various related feelings such as contentment, happiness, joy, and bliss. Observe your own mind to see the causes for these feelings to arise. This is the only way you can clear your own doubts. Otherwise, you are wasting your time and others' in this forum.

Take care,

Middleway

[Username]

Username,

Did you ask yourself as to why you care if those monks or happy or unhappy. Why does it matter to you? It is their business, isn't it? You are making these comments because of doubt in your mind. If you are focusing on others whether they are happy with their practice or not, and arguing here in this forum, it will not clear your doubts in your mind.

Why do you think happiness is better than contentment? I suggest you try to understand the difference between various related feelings such as contentment, happiness, joy, and bliss. Observe your own mind to see the causes for these feelings to arise. This is the only way you can clear your own doubts. Otherwise, you are wasting your time and others' in this forum.

Take care,

Middleway

Have you guys ever asked yourselves why you are so intent on hiding the truth I mean we are meant to be moral good kind people. Not liars and deceivers. If something is not quite right people need to know talk about it and solve it. You dont lie pretend and victimise people with deception if you are a good person. 

In response to your details monks dont usually have a normal or grumpy tone of voice/ facial expressions, if they are feeling any of those good feelings you mentioned. Ive seen signs of narcissism, ridiculous fabrications of the truth and other things coming from these monasteries, also do they really need to make people suffer externally to get the mental gains? I dont think they do, I dont think scrubbing the toilet with your hands everyday or sleeping on a hard floor helps your skill or ability at mindfulness so why make people suffer more than they have to?   

[Middleway]

Have you guys ever asked yourselves why you are so intent on hiding the truth I mean we are meant to be moral good kind people. Not liars and deceivers. If something is not quite right people need to know talk about it and solve it. You dont lie pretend and victimise people with deception if you are a good person. 

In response to your details monks dont usually have a normal or grumpy tone of voice/ facial expressions, if they are feeling any of those good feelings you mentioned. Ive seen signs of narcissism, ridiculous fabrications of the truth and other things coming from these monasteries, also do they really need to make people suffer externally to get the mental gains? I dont think they do, I dont think scrubbing the toilet with your hands everyday or sleeping on a hard floor helps your skill or ability at mindfulness so why make people suffer more than they have to?

I do not know about the monks in those monasteries you are referring to but I do see lot of suffering in you. There is lot of frustration, anger and hatred in your words. I don't see any compassion at all. Observe your mind and try to understand the causes for arising of these strong negative feelings in your mind. If you properly channel, you can turn these negative feelings into genuine compassion. Only then you can genuinely help others. I hope you contemplate on these suggestions and may you find peace in your heart.

Take care,

Middleway

[Username]

Have you guys ever asked yourselves why you are so intent on hiding the truth I mean we are meant to be moral good kind people. Not liars and deceivers. If something is not quite right people need to know talk about it and solve it. You dont lie pretend and victimise people with deception if you are a good person. 

In response to your details monks dont usually have a normal or grumpy tone of voice/ facial expressions, if they are feeling any of those good feelings you mentioned. Ive seen signs of narcissism, ridiculous fabrications of the truth and other things coming from these monasteries, also do they really need to make people suffer externally to get the mental gains? I dont think they do, I dont think scrubbing the toilet with your hands everyday or sleeping on a hard floor helps your skill or ability at mindfulness so why make people suffer more than they have to?

I do not know about the monks in those monasteries you are referring to but I do see lot of suffering in you. There is lot of frustration, anger and hatred in your words. I don't see any compassion at all. Observe your mind and try to understand the causes for arising of these strong negative feelings in your mind. If you properly channel, you can turn these negative feelings into genuine compassion. Only then you can genuinely help others. I hope you contemplate on these suggestions and may you find peace in your heart.

Take care,

Middleway

Well I can get out of negative feelings any time I like, so it doesn't matter, does it, you know you know lies deception and hurting people is a good reason to get angry, also its strange that you think I would need to have some kind of perfect state 24 7 , im not a monk in a monastery, and it appears they are like me too, it also appears only you have achieved this perfect state of non suffering 24 7 and point out when others do not have it......

[Middleway]

Well I can get out of negative feelings any time I like, so it doesn't matter, does it, you know you know lies deception and hurting people is a good reason to get angry, also its strange that you think I would need to have some kind of perfect state 24 7 , im not a monk in a monastery, and it appears they are like me too, it also appears only you have achieved this perfect state of non suffering 24 7 and point out when others do not have it......

How can you get out of negative feelings any time you like? Did you invite them in the first place? Or did they arise in your mind due to underlying causes and conditions? You state the reason for your anger is lies and deception and hurting of people unnecessarily. If that is the cause for your anger, you cannot rid your anger until that cause ceases. You see... you did not invite anger and yet it arose in you. You cannot eliminate the suffering of others with a magic wand, and therefore you cannot the make cause for your anger to cease. You are helpless in this matter. Right? 

Our brains have evolved over millions of years and we all have identical brains. The context varies between person to person but the content is the same. All of us have anger, hatred, and frustrations. In fact there is no difference between your anger and my anger. Their nature is the same. For example, the cloud that forms on New York is same as a cloud that forms is Amsterdam. The process of cloud formation is the same. The nature of the clouds is the same.  All of humanity suffers as a result of brain projecting a mind that spews of anger and hate. People go to extent of killing each other seemingly in a attempt to help others. Look at all the wars taking place right now. The underlying cause is the same. Suffering is the same.

Buddha said there is a cause for this suffering. He said this suffering can be ended. He showed us the way to end this suffering. Each of us first have to end of our own suffering before we attempt to end others' suffering. Otherwise, we will end up as no-good do-gooders cause more harm than good.

In the dhamma,

Middleway

[dharma bum]

Well I can get out of negative feelings any time I like, so it doesn't matter, does it, you know you know lies deception and hurting people is a good reason to get angry, also its strange that you think I would need to have some kind of perfect state 24 7 , im not a monk in a monastery, and it appears they are like me too, it also appears only you have achieved this perfect state of non suffering 24 7 and point out when others do not have it......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR0lYr9JctE

In this video, the monk Ajahn Brahm talk about life in a monastery as a monk.

I personally think (and my thoughts are not especially important) that all monks are not alike. There might be monks who are in monasteries for different reasons. Perhaps some come there because of poverty, maybe some don't know any other life. Maybe there are some not very good monks in some poorly managed monasteries. Maybe some are just lazy. Maybe some monks in Zen monasteries are there only so they can go on and become priests in their family-owned temples. Certainly some monks in Sri Lanka and Burma sound quite scary when they engage in minority-bashing.

So being a monk/nun does not automatically mean that he/she is free from suffering 24/7 or even most of the time. They have to work hard at it and maybe they'll get better at it. However many people stop being monks/nuns and go on to be lay-people and many monks/nuns continue to be monks/nuns even when they have the option to stop being monks/nuns, so maybe they find something worthwhile in that life.

[Goofaholix]

There are different levels to happiness too deep or surface (depending on the dose ie deeper = more of the chemicals released)  , all of your answers while probably partially true are also partially false, and sound alot like you are identified with the monks and defending them come what may, you dont really care about being honest or objective you are both bound by ego and bias

At least my answers are based on real life experience rather than what I saw on the TV.

[Dharmic Tui]

Monks should be devout, strongly disciplined and focused.

I'm not sure the result should mimic the cast of a Coca Cola commercial.

[Alex]

It should be okay to question a practice or a “lifestyle.”

Those reacting more or less strongly to this thread, I invite you to look compassionately in your own heart to see what was stirred up.

But, Username, you’re kidding yourself, if you consider this to be objective in any way.

First of all, there’s the issue of selection. Is the selection of the documentaries representative to be able to generalize anything you might find?
What did you actually observe? Non verbal behavior mostly, and not in their physical presence.
You are the only observer, which is not very reliable.
You’re also relying on your own memory. I guess you didn’t systematically count those that did and did not look happy? If one's idea is that monks aren't that happy, mind tends to forget those that are.
Even if we could reliably observe non verbal behaviors, would this be valid measurements, i.e. actually reflect something with regard to inner states?
And do these inner states reflect some kind of traits (which would be the fruit of the practice)?

And there’s also the other variable = monastic life or lifelong practice. It’s not very clear to me what we’re actually talking about. And how you would know from each of those monks how long they have practiced, which kind of practices, what the circumstances are in the monastery etc.

And what reference or standard do we have to tie the independent variable (monastic life) to the dependent variable (happiness)? What should monastic life lead to?
Actually here, there’s interesting scientific research into the minds of experienced meditators. I think 10.000 hours is like a threshold, but some monks having up to 50.000 hours. I think that would be interesting to look at for you. You might start with the research on meditation by Richard Davidson.

It actually lead to a Buddhist monk, Matthieu Ricard, being called the happiest man on earth...
A monk, imagine that, after lifelong practice being called the happiest man in the world. 

[Alex]

Aside from the above, I%u2019m not against what you write. I will choose teachers based upon what I see and feel, kindness, inner peace, wisdom or energy showing in their eyes, behavior, words.
I%u2019m not saying there%u2019s nothing to be known, but%u2019s all very intuitive. I trust my gut, and that%u2019s fine to guide my actions, but I don%u2019t mistake it for some absolute truth.

--

This thread reminds me of a question that is sometimes asked %u201CWhy is there so much emphasis on suffering in Buddhism? Where%u2019s the joy?%u201D It triggers interesting thoughts. 

--

I can't answer the question if monks are not as happy as they should be.
I guess a person%u2019s (or a monk%u2019s) level of liberation and how this shows will be dependent on many things. As Dharma Bum points out, the personality and aspirations of the monk will be a factor. Also the hours of formal/informal practice. The monastic setting, etc. You might also question what is left of the buddha%u2019s teachings, why not?

Knowing this is all very speculative, Username, I would still be interested to hear your hypotheses: In your opinion, why are monks not happy as they should be?

[dharma bum]

This thread reminds me of a question that is sometimes asked %u201CWhy is there so much emphasis on suffering in Buddhism? Where%u2019s the joy?%u201D It triggers interesting thoughts. 

There is a straightforward answer to that. Buddhism is a result of the Buddha's investigations into the nature of suffering. In modern language of academics and technology, 'suffering' was the problem he was trying to solve.

[Middleway]

This thread reminds me of a question that is sometimes asked %u201CWhy is there so much emphasis on suffering in Buddhism? Where%u2019s the joy?%u201D It triggers interesting thoughts. 

There is a straightforward answer to that. Buddhism is a result of the Buddha's investigations into the nature of suffering. In modern language of academics and technology, 'suffering' was the problem he was trying to solve.

Another way of saying it would be: The mission and vision of any Buddhist Monastery is to end suffering of all humankind.

[Middleway]

It should be okay to question a practice or a “lifestyle.”

Those reacting more or less strongly to this thread, I invite you to look compassionately in your own heart to see what was stirred up.

What stirred up in me is the thought that Username is suffering by imagining the suffering of monks in those monasteries. When I attended Goenka 10-day workshop, around 7th or 8th day I volunteered to clean the toilets. I did this because I felt guilty watching others do it before me. But once I was done cleaning the toilets, I actually felt better. At least from my own personal experience, i can vouch that those monks who volunteered to clean toilets or sleeping on the hard floor may not be suffering after all. It is all our imagination which leads to our own suffering.

That said, everyone in those monasteries experience suffering. Either lay people getting completely fed up of samsara go to the monastery to try and end their suffering or others who go there in pursuit of enlightenment would end up suffering as a result of their desire for enlightenment. So, everyone in the monastery without exception suffers intermittently like any one of us lay people. They too likely will have ups and downs like any one of us.

[Dhamma]

It is all our imagination which leads to our own suffering.

You just brought me to tears, dear friend. This is what I needed to hear today.

I remember hearing a Tibetan Buddhist monk/ teacher once saying, "It was all just a story, but you believed it was all real."

Peace and enlightenment.