When meditating, is it a waste of time when no thoughts enter our head?

[Ja192827]

I was listening to a podcast the other day in which the host said that when we are meditating and are discouraged when thoughts keep popping up in our head, that we should be glad that this is happening. He likened it to going to a gym and just sitting there and doing nothing. One gets no benefit doing this.  One has to lift the barbells in order to gain any muscle.  For me, hearing this was encouraging, but at the same time, discouraging.

The more I meditate, the more I experience periods of no-thought, maybe 10-15 seconds long. Since I listened to this podcast, when I start to experience these moments of awareness without thoughts, I start to worry that I am not "lifting the barbells," and it seems too easy.  I then allow thoughts to freely enter my head, then am discouraged because I get sidetracked by the thoughts. 

So my question is this: When I experience pure awareness without thoughts when meditating, is this a good thing? Or when this happens, should I be making an effort to let thoughts in my head so I will have the opportunity to practice letting them go?  Thanks in advance.

[dharma bum]

IMO it is neither good nor bad that there are moments of no-thoughts. It is okay. It is not especially significant.

You definitely shouldn't try to have thoughts on purpose. You should definitely try to let go of thoughts.

You're doing okay. Keep doing what you're doing.

These are only my opinions, given my limited wisdom.

[Matthew]

Ja,

How do you know when you "experience pure awareness without thoughts when meditating"?

Is this knowledge not thought?

Kindly,

Matthew

[Dhamma]

What is pure awareness? The Buddhists and the Yogis of India have similar but different views at times, or so it seems. Even the different schools of Buddhists seem to slightly differ on their interpretations. I don't know, nor do I pretend to know.

In Zen, pure awareness is observing and seeing all phenomena without judgment. This is equanimity. What that feels like, or how it is experienced - I do not know. LOL.

In the yogic world, there is an attempt to block out senses (pratyahara). And there is this attempt to have no thoughts, or so it seems. Maybe this is what they are calling pure awareness. But, when you're having no thoughts, your are still conscious, aren't you?

I wouldn't spend a lot of time trying to be "thoughtless", unless you're practicing yogi spirituality to some degree. It might have some real value or merit.

If you want to take yogi spirituality and discuss how it compares to Buddhism, we could create a new thread.

There is a lot of overlap between yogi spirituality and the different schools of Buddhism. Many practitioners get confused because they read about pure awareness from a yogi spiritual teacher in a Buddhist publication or magazine. What we must realize is that Buddhism derives out of yogi spirituality - just facts; hence, the confusion. But don't worry about this, but you should know that Tibetan Buddhism is the more like the yogic traditions of India, more so than Zen and Theravada.

So, in conclusion, it's fine to have no thoughts, and it's fine to have thoughts. Focus on just sitting and being without judgment. Don't try to control anything. Learn to sit with all phenomena as it arises. This is a Buddhist forum after all, and this would be the advice to be given to any student of Buddhist meditation from any solid and reliable Buddhist teacher.

Just Be!

[Ja192827]

I guess it was a stretch to say I experience pure awareness. I hardly ever think in words, but whenever I meditate, random images of experiences pop up in my mind’s eye nonstop. After each one pops up, I usually think the same thoughts about it that I thought the previous time. For example, someone was rude to me yrs ago, and their face pops up in my head, then I rehearse how I should have reacted. Sometimes there are moments when I meditate when no images appear in my mind’s eye, so I would consider that to not be thinking, just observing. I thought the goal (I know that is a 4 letter word in this arena) of meditation was to get to the point of having less and less thoughts on the cushion, which bleeds over into off the cushion life, if anyone could comment on that. I appreciate all of your input.

[dharma bum]

Technically, the Buddhist seeks wisdom through meditation. We already know the 4 noble truths, but we seek an experiential knowledge of the 4 noble truths. No-thought is not a goal because it is impossible. What most meditation teachers advise is to not get carried away by thoughts. So during meditation, we come back to the breath when we are aware.

When I say most meditation teachers advise this, I must clarify that I have not personally consulted with anybody. It is just random stuff that I have read or heard by mostly teachers in the Buddhist tradition.

In the Tibetan tradition, they actually encourage analytical thinking, so you are encouraged to think about what goes on in the mind. So when you think about some revenge fantasies you have (happens to everybody) then you are encouraged to reflect upon it.

[stillpointdancer]

I was listening to a podcast the other day in which the host said that when we are meditating and are discouraged when thoughts keep popping up in our head, that we should be glad that this is happening. He likened it to going to a gym and just sitting there and doing nothing. One gets no benefit doing this.  One has to lift the barbells in order to gain any muscle.  For me, hearing this was encouraging, but at the same time, discouraging.

So my question is this: When I experience pure awareness without thoughts when meditating, is this a good thing? Or when this happens, should I be making an effort to let thoughts in my head so I will have the opportunity to practice letting them go?  Thanks in advance.

It depends what you are trying to do. The advice I was given at the Buddhist Centre I used to go to was to change the relationship with my thoughts. They couldn't be stopped or kept at bay, but they could be gently moved on. One strategy is to be aware that you are now following thoughts and to bring your attention instead back to the breath instead. I used to return to counting the breaths, one to ten, and then repeat for a while. Another one I used was to visualise the swinging gate method where you move your thoughts on through a gate which swings open to let them through and away. Much like counting the breath the idea is to distract your mind from the thoughts and back to the task in hand, meditating.

[Ja192827]

Thanks, guys.  When you are meditating, can I ask what the frequency of thoughts is for you?  I realize there is a continuum, but on average, does a new thought pop up the instant you let the previous one go, or is there 5, 10, 15 20+ seconds in between each thought?   I realize there might not be a lot of enthusiasm in the meditation community to quantify meditation like this, but it would really help if I had an idea of what the frequency of thoughts is for experienced meditators.  Thanks again.

[Thanisaro85]

Thanks, guys.  When you are meditating, can I ask what the frequency of thoughts is for you? 

For myself, my thoughts during daily activities or meditations, depends greatly on my body conditions.

Sometimes there are not much thoughts which allow me to concentrate to do thing with focus. Like 2 to 3 thoughts every min? Sometimes the thoughts just keep going repeatedly, especially those shitty things people had done to me, the same thought that rewinding and rewinding. This can go on for half an hours until i interrupt it with mindfulness, it will restart again few hours later.

For the continuous thoughts, i can't really pin on the frequency since it just play non stop.😪

[Ja192827]

That was helpful, Thanisaro. For everyone,  I guess I should clarify that I am referring to thoughts as "Oh, that's right, I need to take my clothes to the dry cleaners today," or "I wish I would have stood up for myself yesterday."  As opposed to noticing that the right nostril has more air coming out of it than the other nostril, or noticing the pressure of the seat on our legs.  I wanted to differentiate these types of observations from the two thought examples I just gave.  For you others, are you constantly having the type of thoughts that I just gave, one after another, nonstop?  If not, could you share about how many thought you might have in a minute's time, on the lower end, when your mind is more still?  Thanks.

[dharma bum]

Usually the way thoughts work is - Oh I have to do my laundry. Oh and I need to cook. Oh i need to buy that new pan. Oh and that new other stuff I looked at when I was looking for a pan. Oh I need to cut down on all this stuff. Do i really need to buy all this stuff? I am so good at cutting down on my needs compare to my friend. My friend's wife is so pretty. Wait a minute I am supposed to be meditating.

There is a link as one thought leads to another - usually like a cluster of associated thoughts. Not sure if it is possible to count the number of thoughts. Some are fleeting, some are feelings. If I have been meditating, I can trace-back the jump from one thought to the the last one. But sometimes I am not aware then I have no idea why I am thinking of this.

[Dhamma]

@ Ja192827:

You received a lot of good advice.

This thread was useful to me because it has showed me once again how similar all of our minds are.  All humans experience the same sort of emotions.  The crazy Monkey Mind plagues us all.

I've had a lot of revenge fantasies lately.  Thoughts are just thoughts - nothing inherently existent about them. They come and go, just like everything else in life.

Please disregard my comments on no-thoughts. But no-thoughts in yogi traditions are not really "no thoughts" - just a deeper level of consciousness.

I wish you the best of luck.

May you and all of us fulfill our deepest wish for happiness.
 

[Ja192827]

Dharma and Dhamma, thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts and experiences with thoughts in meditation.

[Matthew]

I guess it was a stretch to say I experience pure awareness. I hardly ever think in words, but whenever I meditate, random images of experiences pop up in my mind’s eye nonstop. After each one pops up, I usually think the same thoughts about it that I thought the previous time. For example, someone was rude to me yrs ago, and their face pops up in my head, then I rehearse how I should have reacted.

"Rehearse" is the key word you have used here. Rehearse is a synonym of "practice". So when you are in your meditation practice, you are practicing the same old stories you have clung to for years: the root of suffering. This is probably not the wisest choice. They may be deeply ingrained habits, yet you will need to move beyond. There are two well practiced methods open to you:

You will need to bring enough mindfulness to your practice to choose not to follow the habituated thinking. When that person appears, recall the memory but do not go down the follow through habituated thought train you have been using for so long. Stop at the recall of the memory, hold it in you mind, feel what feelings are associated to it, examine it in detail, get to know it intimately. Where does it arise from? Where does it dissipate to if you no longer indulge habituated patterns of thought? Befriend these thoughts, get to know them better than the palm of your own hand. This is what empowers you to let go. The habit you have now is hiding you from experiencing the reactions you have buried in subconscious mind by creating the habits. This will take time, yet it works, very well.

You could also employ Metta Bhavana or Maitri practice: development of loving kindness as an indirect antidote to these unwholesome habits of mind. This would involve taking that image of the person who was rude to you and developing feelings of loving kindness, gratitude, goodwill and compassion towards them. It really is not their fault they were an idiot and rude: just the way their mind was conditioned by experience at that point in life. If this is too hard, start with developing loving kindness etc towards yourself, then towards a loved one such as family member, then a neutral person, such as neighbour or family member you neither feel close nor distant to, then move on to the harder stuff, like the person who was rude.

Sometimes there are moments when I meditate when no images appear in my mind’s eye, so I would consider that to not be thinking, just observing.

The more I meditate, the more I experience periods of no-thought, maybe 10-15 seconds long. Since I listened to this podcast, when I start to experience these moments of awareness without thoughts, I start to worry  ....

"I start to worry" .. This is thinking. Even before you heard the podcast there will have been thinking. The knowledge "I am having no thought" is a thought. Yet what you describe above is just a habit of negative self-talk, the inner voice of what Freud called the "super-ego": the inner voice of enculturation and judgement that Freud perceived to be that which holds your animal instincts in line with cultural norms. Cultural norms and this aspect of ego is just another layer of stuff you have to burn through with insight and acceptance and calm and compassion, and through repeated practice. By doing this you take it to pieces, you burn it, destroy it, peacefully, calmly, and only because it lacks wholesome qualities that you are developing with right practice.

I thought the goal (I know that is a 4 letter word in this arena) of meditation was to get to the point of having less and less thoughts on the cushion, which bleeds over into off the cushion life, if anyone could comment on that. I appreciate all of your input.

Not really. It is to move into having fewer thoughts of which you are not aware where they come from, yet this is but one small part on the path of meditation. The best way to think of the goal in meditation is that to practice meditation is the goal. Getting your arse on the cushion is where it matters, and then using the fruits of meditation, as they grow and ripen, in every waking moment of your day;  in every thought, word and deed; in every interaction with the world and those you encounter.

Technically, the Buddhist seeks wisdom through meditation.
.....

Wisdom grows through practice on and off the cushion, yet this is not the goal of meditation. It is the third division of the eightfold path, consisting of "right view" and "right intention or motivation". All the divisions are interwoven yet the ultimate goal of meditation, as with the whole path, is expressed in the third noble truth: "There is a way out of suffering": the ultimate aim is to cut completely the roots of suffering. Wisdom is only a tool to aid us in ending suffering, alongside morality and meditation, the first and second divisions of the eightfold path.

[Ja192827]

Matthew, thank you for taking all the time you did to respond in detail.  I hate to "look a gift horse in the mouth," but could I ask you to clarify a few things for me?  You wrote: "Where does it arise from? Where does it dissipate to if you no longer indulge habituated patterns of thought?" 

I am not sure I follow.  I am not sure how to answer where the image or thought arises from or dissipates, but from and to my subconscious.

Great advice for metta-meditation.  I tend to bottle things up and be resentful, so your suggestion will help a lot.

As far as my original question goes, I have been having a difficult time articulating it.  There are short periods in which I am just observing my breathing or feeling the pressure of my butt in the chair, during which I am pretty sure I am not thinking or having the thought that I am not thinking.  It seems you might have been saying that this is not possible, that there is always discursive thoughts running through our heads. Let's say that I am an anomaly and am one of the few who experiences short periods of not thinking.  When these moments of no-thought happen, should I start initiating thoughts so I have the opportunity to observe them and let them go?  Sort of like I mentioned earlier, if you are at the gym not lifting weights, there is no point of being there. Or should I be happy that over time, my mind is becoming more and more quiet?  It is during these periods in which I feel a deep, unexplainable, enjoyable peace, so intuitively, it seems like this should be the goal.  Of course, I don't try to cling to these moments and am not terribly disappointed when they go away. 

By the way, not sure if you do this sort of thing, but if you provide meditation coaching, I would be interested in talking.  Thanks again for your time.

[Matthew]

Matthew, thank you for taking all the time you did to respond in detail.  I hate to "look a gift horse in the mouth," but could I ask you to clarify a few things for me?  You wrote: "Where does it arise from? Where does it dissipate to if you no longer indulge habituated patterns of thought?" 

I am not sure I follow.  I am not sure how to answer where the image or thought arises from or dissipates, but from and to my subconscious.

So look there ... you are penetrating layers of mind with the fruit of "in-sight" developed through practice. the subconscious is only those parts of mind you are not yet conscious of ...

Great advice for metta-meditation.  I tend to bottle things up and be resentful, so your suggestion will help a lot.

It's a useful practice. It can help you cut through the clutter and see your conditioned responses, as you will feel "pushback" when trying to generate kindness and acceptance towards some people and situations. These are great learning opportunities.

As far as my original question goes, I have been having a difficult time articulating it.  There are short periods in which I am just observing my breathing or feeling the pressure of my butt in the chair, during which I am pretty sure I am not thinking or having the thought that I am not thinking.

Is there not even the thought "I am breathing"? or "my butt is on the chair"?

More broadly, how do you practice? What form does your practice take? Where did you learn it? Where is your focus when you are breathing?

It seems you might have been saying that this is not possible, that there is always discursive thoughts running through our heads.

If you can count to ten breaths without having a single intrusive thought you have made great strides in developing calm and concentration, or ... you have made a very common mistake on the path. Not all thought is discursive, some are simply noting things as mentioned above. I can't really say more without answers to the questions above however.

Let's say that I am an anomaly and am one of the few who experiences short periods of not thinking.

 

Anyone can achieve this - it's a question of how. There is a qualitative reason not to get to such a point other than with right effort, mindfulness, and concentration. Again, I can't say more without answers to the above questions ..

When these moments of no-thought happen, should I start initiating thoughts so I have the opportunity to observe them and let them go?  Sort of like I mentioned earlier, if you are at the gym not lifting weights, there is no point of being there. Or should I be happy that over time, my mind is becoming more and more quiet?  It is during these periods in which I feel a deep, unexplainable, enjoyable peace, so intuitively, it seems like this should be the goal.  Of course, I don't try to cling to these moments and am not terribly disappointed when they go away.

 

Fabricate nothing. See what is, explore what is. If you are truly arriving at a point of no thought, and through right meditation, then no thought and the bliss "not borne from the body" becomes the object of meditation.

By the way, not sure if you do this sort of thing, but if you provide meditation coaching, I would be interested in talking.  Thanks again for your time.

What do you think I am doing, answering your questions? I offer you reflections from my experience on the path - as are the other members, who are giving of their time and energy. I am not enlightened: I am a fellow traveller on the path. I may have a correct understanding, I may have a mistaken understanding (at different times I am sure both statements are true). You need to discern for yourself what and who to have some confidence in, and then confirm for yourself the truth (or falsity) of their words, through practice.

Whatever you do, please do not put me on a pedestal: it will only lead to disappointment and disharmony. I am human, I am flawed.

The forum motto: "nobody is the teacher and we are all the teacher" - we walk our own paths; many of the landscapes, scenery, and the features we encounter are common, yet each person must walk the path themselves. We try our best to help each other, communicating with a common language: yet even this is tricky, as different people ascribe differing meanings to words, sometimes grossly differing, sometimes subtly so.

"You can change yourself" - the most important teaching of the Buddha, according to Tulku Ringu Rinpoche.

I am considering doing some more joint meditation sessions online, but have some physical health problems that mean this will not be immediately. If it happens, you'll know. These used to take the form of meditating together for a fixed period of time, and then having a discussion. Any members who want to meditate together can make this happen.

We have a very clunky video chat room embedded on one of the boards. Zoom would probably be a better bet. You would be surprised how beneficial meditating with others can be - and though it may sound very strange to have a silent meditation via video chat, when we did it in the past it was quite beneficial, not so different to sitting in a shrine room with a big shiny Buddha: it is what you make it.

Best, in the Dhamma,

Matthew

[Ja192827]

-I am not sure how to look into my subconscious. Would you be able to explain how this can be done while meditating?  Images and thoughts just seem to come from nowhere.  I feel shallow by saying that, as it seems there is a lot of learning that could result from exploring my subconssious.  The only thing that comes to mind would be hypnosis? I asked you if you would be available for coaching because I wanted to compensate you for your time for questions like this.  Again, I appreciate your selfless giving of your time.


-From your post: Is there not even the thought "I am breathing"? or "my butt is on the chair"?  I never have considered these to be thoughts, but I will have to reconsider.  I have always considered thoughts to be "I have to remember to take out the garbage today," and maybe even past memories which pop up and the feelings that accompany them.  I have about 40% of each, then about 10% observation of my body during meditation.

More broadly, how do you practice? What form does your practice take? Where did you learn it? Where is your focus when you are breathing?

I took a 10 day Goenka Vipassana silent retreat course 4 yrs ago, but don't practice that way currently, for the most part.  I practice I guess what some call choiceless awareness.  For the most part, I have been unable to focus on my breath, as I can barely feel the air passing in and out of my nose and can barely feel my stomach rising or falling and am not sure why, as I have been trying for 5 yrs now. I also have tried focusing on how the rest of my body feels, and cannot stay focused. What I do is to essentially close my eyes and observe whatever comes up in my mind, then I move my eyes a bit while my eyes are closed, as a signal to myself to let the thought go.  Or I will verbalize whatever thoughts, images, or feelings that come to mind in one word.  Doing so makes me more aware that I am thinking, so I find that by doing so, my mind produces less "thoughts."

"If you can count to ten breaths without having a single intrusive thought you have made great strides in developing calm and concentration, or ... you have made a very common mistake on the path."

How can it be one or the other?  Can you tell me how it is done the unskillful way?

Thanks for your other helpful thoughts as well.  Looking forward to a group meditation session; never have done one before.

[raushan]

Hi Ja192827,

The only thing that comes to mind would be hypnosis? I asked you if you would be available for coaching because I wanted to compensate you for your time for questions like this.

Matthew is not well. In fact, he has already mentioned officially he has retired from the forum work. So I think answering questions by him side is voluntary.  Given the Buddhist tradition, it's also unlikely that he will accept payment for the Dhamma teaching.

I will also suggest checking the resource section of this forum. Watch few dhamma talks by Ajahn Brahm or other Buddhist masters related to meditation that may increase your understanding little bit. As usual, You can always ask questions here if anyone can they will definitely give the answer.

[Matthew]

The only thing that comes to mind would be hypnosis? I asked you if you would be available for coaching because I wanted to compensate you for your time for questions like this.

Yes. Hypnosis - I'll come back to you on the that and the rest of your questions later. Today is not a good day

Thank you for the thought to recompense me for the effort put in to helping you. I apologise if my response came across harshly. Being put on a pedestal undeservedly has been a problem in the past, though you were not to know this.

The offer is appreciated, though the point of Dhamma is that my teachers taught me for free, and in turn I will help others for free, as and when I can, and as Raushan correctly identified below.

If you benefit from the forum discussions, and are minded to help keep this space running, then consider making a donation towards running costs next time we put out a call for such help. This pays to keep the lights on, the software running, and the floor clean. Nobody on the staff is paid or profits. The fees come due in August 2021 and will total around £50 for the year, so a few people chipping in a few pounds each covers it.

... I think answering questions by (Matthew's} side is voluntary.  Given the Buddhist tradition, it's also unlikely that he will accept payment for the Dhamma teaching.

No, I would never accept payment for Dhamma teaching, unless I choose the route of renunciation and become reliant upon donations willingly given. I doubt I will take that route.

Matthew is not well. In fact, he has already mentioned officially he has retired from the forum work.

To qualify the above, I have stepped back from day to day management of the forum, supported in doing this by a great small team of committed volunteers to whom we can all be thankful. I have not stopped contributing entirely from discussions.

[raushan]

Thanks for your other helpful thoughts as well.  Looking forward to a group meditation session; never have done one before.

I agree to have a group meditation.

[Ja192827]

I definitely will donate. I wish you the best with your health.

[Dhamma]

I would like to join a group meditation session with you all. How do I do this?

Peace and enlightenment

[Dhamma]

I will donate money as well.

[Matthew]

I will donate money as well.

I definitely will donate. I wish you the best with your health.

Thanks for your kind wishes. No bills are due until the middle of next year - we will put a shout out a couple of weeks beforehand. We always do this and the bill is always met within a day or two, that's how we've been rolling for the last thirteen years

[Matthew]

I would like to join a group meditation session with you all. How do I do this?

The video conferencing software we previously used no longer works (embedded in the first post of the board below this). I'm pretty sure we could embed a Zoom room but it would need manually coding and maintaining, so probably better to use one of the free meeting solutions available:

Zoom, Skype or Google Meet will all work though.

Zoom and Google meet are limited to one hour if nobody has a paid for account. Skype up to 100 hours per month (4 hours per call). An hour is fine to be honest.

We used to sit for 30 or 40 minutes then have a discussion for the rest of the hour. We would sometimes have two or three people, other times a few more. 

Timing is important as there may be people in Europe, North America and Asia wishing to join. Late afternoon in Europe is mid evening in Asia and good for most North American time zones.

It is up to individuals to take a lead on this. I would encourage anyone who wants to organise a group sit to do so on one of the private boards where you can share meeting links and pin etc.

My guess would be Zoom as the best solution.