Meditation, nimita and ripening karma.( excerpts of experiences)

[Thanisaro85]

As some of us may not buy the idea of karma( action) and vipaka( fruits, results)., so do take this with a pinch of salt and do be mindfulness with our thoughts of criticising. My apologies if this excerpt causes disturbances to you.

Google translate from thai facebook group with some corrections. I don't know what is a bouncing rope in the story below, may be a whip- like child play item?


[Experiencing Karma and Nimita]
Excerpt from talk "How to exhaust karma correctly"

◎Luangpor (Reverend father) Pramote was very mischievous when he was a child. He like to play with bouncing rope. When he saw a bat flying, he was curious how it flies so fast.
He said, I don't want to hurt it, I just want to know if I can hit it?
I tried to hit with a stick but never get it . So i changed to  the bouncing rope which is faster than the stick, just like that, when it flies, it flashes by, and it hit its back. The bat fell to the ground flapping its wings, not death or wounded, but I  was extremely depressed, and very, very strong compassion arose. After watching it carefully for a while, seeing it flew away, my heart felt a little better!

30 years later, in one of my meditations, my mind settled quick into concentration.  And when my heart withdrew from meditation with senses regained slightly,  I heard a "crack" sound, as if a whip sounded landed at the middle of my back. At this time,  my body and mind trembled, and feeling painful at my back. Then, nimita arised, seeing the picture of the bat flapping its wings, i realized that the karma of harming the bat karma had ripened, but also exhausted.

End.







 

[Dhamma]

Thank you for that, dear Thanisaro85.

Yes, I believe in karma, just like in the story you posted above. We should not downplay its effects in our everyday lives.

I know that some secular Buddhists often times don't believe much in karma, past lives, reincarnation, etc. (I do, however). But that is for another topic, right?

We also must be aware that we bring karmic seeds planted in of us from past lives. In fact, I learned from a Tibetan Buddhist that our aversions to certain people are often times rooted in karmic seeds.

Please take care.

Peace and enlightenment.

[Matthew]

Dhamma,

Reincarnation is not a Buddhist teaching, that's Hindu/Brahmanic/Christian and a bunch of other religions. Rebirth is a Buddhist teaching.

Either way it's fairly irrelevant until you get to a point of cultivation where the gift of direct seeing of such arises. Until then, any belief, in the truth or falsity of such ideas is a hindrance.

Kindly,

Matthew

[stillpointdancer]

The problem with taking on board beliefs such as rebirth is that they become so much harder to let go of. In the end you have to let go of all these ideas, along with everything else, and any red lines become impossible stumbling blocks. I can see why ideas like that are so attractive, but they are best left as interesting curiosities if you are determined to make progress.

[Thanisaro85]

The obstacles are understood.

Let us just stick to the excerpt.  I decided to share them here as I had seen at least 3 reverend teacher mentioned such phenomenons during meditation, thus I thought it might benefits some of the members here.....but if this is not appropriate...do delete this post.

I myself had nimitas of image of toilet bowl....in year 2013 when I was doing retreat in Thailand for 1 week.
And recently it came up again. Keep flashing like a projection into my mind. Yeah just a clean toilet bowl.....no feeling , not like the excerpt.

[Dhamma]

Well, rebirth and karma are major teachings of Buddhism, though I understand secular Buddhists don't see them in the same light as standard Buddhists. However, even for monks and nuns in all the Buddhist traditions, focusing too much on rebirth and karma can indeed be obstacles in our path, when we are not highly realize.

Thanisaro85, could this be about karma purging? You're being swept into greater purification, while "flushing away all attachments to the past"? 

[Thanisaro85]

Hi Dhamma,

I have no idea about karma purging, but I feel that this phenomenon is distracting, is like on and off a picture just appearing in your mind, bright and clear, but leaving you without the slightest clue what is it about.

" flushing away all attachments to the past?" , that is a way to look at it and I hope so, but as of now I am still very attached to my 2 sons.😁
I do sometimes think , perhaps one day I will die in the toilet.

[Dhamma]

Hi Dhamma,

I have no idea about karma purging, but I feel that this phenomenon is distracting, is like on and off a picture just appearing in your mind, bright and clear, but leaving you without the slightest clue what is it about.

" flushing away all attachments to the past?" , that is a way to look at it and I hope so, but as of now I am still very attached to my 2 sons.😁
I do sometimes think , perhaps one day I will die in the toilet.

Perhaps, though, it is just "monkey mind"?  But, again, it could have relevance, thus being some sort of karmic imprint. It is bothering you, I can tell. That's obviously why you posted it.  Could you speak with an enlightened monk about it? Or would it cause you embarrassment to do so?  The mind is so bizarre. Unless you are highly realized like Reverend Father Pramote, it can be difficult to discern what is meaningful, and what is not meaningful.

I want you to love your sons. LOL. But, yes, we must lose all attachments for enlightenment. We can still love someone dearly without being attached to them.

Sometimes I will convince myself that I don't like a certain somebody because of "karmic seeds", but then I tell myself that I really don't have the Buddhist wisdom to discern truth from fiction. I just focus on seeing the "emptiness" in all phenomena.  I don't focus on karmic seeds very much, but that doesn't mean I don't believe in karmic seeds, however - I do!

Maybe I can find something for you online to help you this. But, I do see what you mean: you're seeing the clean toilet bowl as a karmic seed that is yet to ripen.  It might be just crazy monkey mind, as I said before.

Please don't stress over this.  It could end up being nothing but a distraction on your path. But, it doesn't mean it's not worth investigating a little.

Much love in the Holy Dhamma

[Dhamma]

How are you, dear Thanisaro85?
 

[raushan]

Dhamma,

Reincarnation is not a Buddhist teaching, that's Hindu/Brahmanic/Christian and a bunch of other religions. Rebirth is a Buddhist teaching.

Either way it's fairly irrelevant until you get to a point of cultivation where the gift of direct seeing of such arises. Until then, any belief, in the truth or falsity of such ideas is a hindrance.

Kindly,

Matthew

Hi Matthew,

Why is it harmful to hold the idea of rebirth? I mean if I consider the theory of rebirth the certain things make sense. Like why someone born rich or some poor. Or a personality type. A person possesses certain character traits from their birth.

[stillpointdancer]

Why is it harmful to hold the idea of rebirth? I mean if I consider the theory of rebirth the certain things make sense. Like why someone born rich or some poor. Or a personality type. A person possesses certain character traits from their birth.

Hi Raushan
My view is that the idea of rebirth can hold you back. If you drop it, then the possibilities for change are endless. You are free to do whatever you want, to be whatever person you want to be. The downside is there there is no excuse to not change.

[raushan]

Hi stillpointdancer,

Yes, I agree with that point. Not believing in rebirth will lead a person to not procrastinate in this life. As there is only limited time in a person's life. If a person truly realizes it then that person will not dare to waste time.

[Siddharth]

Dhamma,

Reincarnation is not a Buddhist teaching, that's Hindu/Brahmanic/Christian and a bunch of other religions. Rebirth is a Buddhist teaching.

Either way it's fairly irrelevant until you get to a point of cultivation where the gift of direct seeing of such arises. Until then, any belief, in the truth or falsity of such ideas is a hindrance.

Kindly,

Matthew

Hi Matthew,

Why is it harmful to hold the idea of rebirth? I mean if I consider the theory of rebirth the certain things make sense. Like why someone born rich or some poor. Or a personality type. A person possesses certain character traits from their birth.

I feel we make sense of a lot of things through stories, as we are beings fundamentally embedded in stories and narratives (Jungian ideas). But through meditation, what happens really is that we become more and more aware of these fabricated stories (fabricated in the sense that we do not see these things happening, we believe them), and also the underlying reasons why these stories are needed.

Now narratives are very useful for us humans to survive, that is how we perceive what we do not understand, and not everything is needed to be felt to believe, for example if a container says "toxic", i'd rather not drink the contents.

At the same time if certain realities of existence, like inequality, and pain, which are inherent and ever-present, cause us to become resentful in some way or lose equanimity, we tend to make sense of these using such narrative of karma and rebirth. they may or may not be what is happening, but the path of meditation is more concerned with becoming less and less disturbed by the underlying causes of these manifestations, through understanding, rather than belief. Thus all the narratives we believe about who we are and what the world is and why so, help us lead day-to-day life and interact with society, but at some level hinder progress in meditation.

I personally do not attach much to any of these stories or narratives, but rather see them as models/stories which help me take the character in "real" world and play along with society. Ardent belief or disbelief in any story is ultimately a hindrance on the path of meditation in my opinion. despite that story being true or untrue in the first place, whatever "true" means.

[raushan]

Dhamma,

Reincarnation is not a Buddhist teaching, that's Hindu/Brahmanic/Christian and a bunch of other religions. Rebirth is a Buddhist teaching.

Either way it's fairly irrelevant until you get to a point of cultivation where the gift of direct seeing of such arises. Until then, any belief, in the truth or falsity of such ideas is a hindrance.

Kindly,

Matthew

Hi Matthew,

Why is it harmful to hold the idea of rebirth? I mean if I consider the theory of rebirth the certain things make sense. Like why someone born rich or some poor. Or a personality type. A person possesses certain character traits from their birth.

I feel we make sense of a lot of things through stories, as we are beings fundamentally embedded in stories and narratives (Jungian ideas). But through meditation, what happens really is that we become more and more aware of these fabricated stories (fabricated in the sense that we do not see these things happening, we believe them), and also the underlying reasons why these stories are needed.

Now narratives are very useful for us humans to survive, that is how we perceive what we do not understand, and not everything is needed to be felt to believe, for example if a container says "toxic", i'd rather not drink the contents.

At the same time if certain realities of existence, like inequality, and pain, which are inherent and ever-present, cause us to become resentful in some way or lose equanimity, we tend to make sense of these using such narrative of karma and rebirth. they may or may not be what is happening, but the path of meditation is more concerned with becoming less and less disturbed by the underlying causes of these manifestations, through understanding, rather than belief. Thus all the narratives we believe about who we are and what the world is and why so, help us lead day-to-day life and interact with society, but at some level hinder progress in meditation.

I personally do not attach much to any of these stories or narratives, but rather see them as models/stories which help me take the character in "real" world and play along with society. Ardent belief or disbelief in any story is ultimately a hindrance on the path of meditation in my opinion. despite that story being true or untrue in the first place, whatever "true" means.

Hi Siddharth,

I agree with you that to function as a society we create narratives. It unites a large number of individuals in one. Like a religion as a narrative unites many people of the same religion. They feel a sense of belonging. They identify themselves.

But about karma, I won't say it's entirely a fictional story. I mean any individual can see the effect of karma on their day to day life. A person working hard on maths will become smart, A person playing chess from childhood can become the Grandmaster. So isn't it karma? I mean you reap the fruit of karma. A person telling lies all the time will have a very chaotic mind.



But I agree it's a huge jump when using karma in the Rebirth context. I mean it will still be an assumption to take rebirth as a truth.
But there has been some scientific research in this area. I haven't looked into much.

Also, in one of the Ajhan Brahm video, he was telling there is no harm in believing that rebirth exists. Sadhguru also refer many times about this concept.

But personally I agree with what Matthew says believing something which we truly don't know isn't a good idea.

[dharma bum]

Is there anything in the Tripitaka that talks about karma or rebirth?

[Siddharth]

Hi Siddharth,

I agree with you that to function as a society we create narratives. It unites a large number of individuals in one. Like a religion as a narrative unites many people of the same religion. They feel a sense of belonging. They identify themselves.

But about karma, I won't say it's entirely a fictional story. I mean any individual can see the effect of karma on their day to day life. A person working hard on maths will become smart, A person playing chess from childhood can become the Grandmaster. So isn't it karma? I mean you reap the fruit of karma. A person telling lies all the time will have a very chaotic mind.



But I agree it's a huge jump when using karma in the Rebirth context. I mean it will still be an assumption to take rebirth as a truth.
But there has been some scientific research in this area. I haven't looked into much.

Also, in one of the Ajhan Brahm video, he was telling there is no harm in believing that rebirth exists. Sadhguru also refer many times about this concept.

But personally I agree with what Matthew says believing something which we truly don't know isn't a good idea.

hey raushan,
I am not implying that any theory is fictional or real. that is not the point. my point is that we often rely on narratives to deal with inner complexes and muddle. eg. karma theory to make sense of all the inequality in the world.
while inequality is truly present and so is pain, us needing narratives to be okay with it is lack of equanimity in its root, the way I see it. and yes, narratives are useful in many ways, that is how we perceive, and a lot of them work well in the real world. eg: stud math to become good at math. the problem there is, what if your IQ is 80. then you are never going to become good at maths. but to deal with that if we need a story which says that our IQ is 80 because of some bad karma of past life, then I think we are believing rather than understanding and growing.

so while there is no harm per se in believing in rebirth etc. , My point is that we must tread carefully so that the narratives that hold us together do not become obstacles in our own growth, ultimately, we have to let go of all these narratives organically on the path as we progress. some because they are false in the first place or exist to control some inner complex; while others because now we can ourselves see that they are not mere narratives but the fabric of reality and our experiences have elevated them from narratives to perceived reality.

[Matthew]

Is there anything in the Tripitaka that talks about karma or rebirth?

Access to insight has 509 results for rebirth and 358 for Karma. Plenty to read

Hi Matthew,

Why is it harmful to hold the idea of rebirth? I mean if I consider the theory of rebirth the certain things make sense. Like why someone born rich or some poor. Or a personality type. A person possesses certain character traits from their birth.

But personally I agree with what Matthew says believing something which we truly don't know isn't a good idea.

Raushan,

Belief has no place in the practice of Buddhism. The word in Buddhist teachings is "faith", and faith has two meanings: confidence and belief.

Confidence, for example, means to have heard the Dhamma, to have understood the Dhamma, and therefore, to have gained the confidence to act upon these knowledges and practice the Dhamma. One gains personal experiential knowledge of the truth of the Dhamma this way, and as one does so, one's confidence grows.

Belief means to accept as true, with no solid evidence or direct knowledge, a story you have been told about something: Not to examine, not to see the root, the branch, the fruits of the story; just to blindly believe.

Buddhism is not a religion based in belief - not if you wish to follow the path of the Buddha and end suffering.

If, like most so-called "Buddhists" you wish to go to temple and make offerings on holy days, and try and buy some good karma by making offering to the temple, and buy the blessings of the Buddha's, ... wow ... then like most so-called "Buddhists" the whole point of the teachings has been misunderstood, completely and utterly.

If the Buddha is witness he is not smiling at this type of action. He is cursing the fools who twisted his teachings from a gnostic school of self-mastery, and made it into a belief-based "religion": an opiate of the masses.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew

[dharma bum]

I started to read this:
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN136.html

But my head started to hurt.

Then I found this
The Truth of Rebirth And Why It Matters for Buddhist Practice
Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu
(Geoffrey DeGraff)
https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings/Ebooks/TheTruthofRebirth_181215.pdf

I'll read this someday. Or maybe somebody can read it and provide a short summary.

[Matthew]

I'll read this someday. Or maybe somebody can read it and provide a short summary.

It's late, and Thanissaro is not my choice of Buddhist logician to be honest, he is more Buddhist philosopher than meditation master: and therein lays a vital problem. Like the vast majority of Abhidhamma teachings, he is writing a theoretical treatise, not speaking from embodied gnosis gained through personal experience. After all, the Buddha taught that his teachings would be lost 500 years after his death - and if there were any true enlightened masters alive today we would all know. Such people make their mark on history.

I have only scanned a few pages, yet the way he crafts his words demonstrates that he is not talking from personal knowledge, but from interpretation of Suttas:

The Buddha taught, however, that they do matter a great deal, and that awakening—in going beyond the dimensions of space and time—gives perspective on how choices operate within those dimensions. You see that choices are real, that they do make a difference, and that the consequences of your choices can shape not only this life but also many lifetimes in the future ..

Here he references what the Buddha taught (as he understands it) - and not what he knows through attaining mastery of the higher jhanas.

It's bedtime. I'll read some more tomorrow dharma bum.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew

[raushan]

Belief has no place in the practice of Buddhism. The word in Buddhist teachings is "faith", and faith has two meanings: confidence and belief.

Thanks for the clarification Matthew.

It's bedtime. I'll read some more tomorrow dharma bum.

Matthew is so helpful, he even read suttas for you.

[dharma bum]

Matthew is so helpful, he even read suttas for you.

Yes, indeed.

Maybe he'll meditate for us too.

[raushan]

the problem there is, what if your IQ is 80. then you are never going to become good at maths. but to deal with that if we need a story which says that our IQ is 80 because of some bad karma of past life, then I think we are believing rather than understanding and growing.

I agree with you most of what you said. But I want to clarify on the IQ. IQ term has been mainly developed by psychologists. So, psychologists have used various statistical methods to correlate IQ with wealth, success in quant, and various other things. Now the problem with psychologists is they are not truly a mathematician. So, they have used the statistics in a very wrong way and their interpretations aren't correct.

Their calculating method has been exposed by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. He is a popular figure in risk management and probability theory/statistics. You can read his article on medium. He has also published a paper. ANd currently, he is a professor at New York University.  He has also written books like Antifragile and others. So I believe his work can be trusted.
https://medium.com/incerto/iq-is-largely-a-pseudoscientific-swindle-f131c101ba39

Correlation doesn't mean causation. This grave mistake has been done many times in the scientific results.

So now the question arises why some seem to be more intelligent than others in maths. I don't know the answer. My own theory is inclination. Every person has a natural inclination to something. A person who has a natural inclination of math will unknowingly do that type of activity which in turn makes them intelligent.

I have never heard anyone becoming good in anything without doing the extreme hard work.

[Matthew]

Maybe he'll meditate for us too.

We all meditate for everyone. This is the greatest path, the path beyond ego, beyond "strive diligently for your own salvation" -though first it is striving for that, for without that, you cannot salve another. That is what Buddha did. He achieved salvation, an end to suffering - and then he taught others the way. This is the goal of the bodhisattva.

The teachings from my roots in Mahayana run deep, even though I am more leaning to Theravada for many years

[Matthew]

So, psychologists have used various statistical methods to correlate IQ with wealth, success in quant, and various other things. Now the problem with psychologists is they are not truly a mathematician. So, they have used the statistics in a very wrong way and their interpretations aren't correct.

Psychologists bastardise maths to reach conclusions they have already formed. It is not even a science. It is pseudo-science, AKA "woo". Next best thing to healing Chakras with "energised crystals"

Their calculating method has been exposed by Nassim Nicholas Taleb.

Taleb is a damn genius. Black Swans is his most authoritative work. He is a specialist in probability and "fat tail" risk. His work on coronavirus is beyond anyone else.

So now the question arises why some seem to be more intelligent than others in maths. I don't know the answer. My own theory is inclination. Every person has a natural inclination to something. A person who has a natural inclination of math will unknowingly do that type of activity which in turn makes them intelligent.

I have never heard anyone becoming good in anything without doing the extreme hard work.

We all have differing talents and idiosyncrasies. "Intelligence" comes in many guises. Finding the things we are good at takes a lot of work: to move beyond the social contract and the demands of conformity it places upon us. Why the Buddha taught you must hate your mother and father - he didn't mean it literally, just that you must move beyond clinging to the dogma they conditioned you with: as you must beyond everything to which you cling.

[Siddharth]

the problem there is, what if your IQ is 80. then you are never going to become good at maths. but to deal with that if we need a story which says that our IQ is 80 because of some bad karma of past life, then I think we are believing rather than understanding and growing.

I agree with you most of what you said. But I want to clarify on the IQ. IQ term has been mainly developed by psychologists. So, psychologists have used various statistical methods to correlate IQ with wealth, success in quant, and various other things. Now the problem with psychologists is they are not truly a mathematician. So, they have used the statistics in a very wrong way and their interpretations aren't correct.

Their calculating method has been exposed by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. He is a popular figure in risk management and probability theory/statistics. You can read his article on medium. He has also published a paper. ANd currently, he is a professor at New York University.  He has also written books like Antifragile and others. So I believe his work can be trusted.
https://medium.com/incerto/iq-is-largely-a-pseudoscientific-swindle-f131c101ba39

Correlation doesn't mean causation. This grave mistake has been done many times in the scientific results.

So now the question arises why some seem to be more intelligent than others in maths. I don't know the answer. My own theory is inclination. Every person has a natural inclination to something. A person who has a natural inclination of math will unknowingly do that type of activity which in turn makes them intelligent.

I have never heard anyone becoming good in anything without doing the extreme hard work.

Hey raushan, I think we are on the same page mostly. and wrt IQ, I was not aware of the information you shared, I'll check that out as I get more time. thanks for sharing this.

And yes, correlation and causation are different things.
the gist of what I meant is that some narratives are explanations of our experience which help us live, and some are just blind beliefs to make sense of what we are not comfortable with/ do not understand. meditation increases our understanding as we experience within ourselves, and on that path, some of the stories that knowingly or unknowingly we impose on ourselves can be hindrances.