Struggling - no equanimity

[Sarahpro]

Hi there,
I have been struggling for 3.5 months now. Some fear came up in March and instead of accepting it, I resisted it. My once radiant heart became very empty and painful. I was not practicing formal meditation but just awareness in day to day, but came from goenka tradition previously.
As the fear comes back again and again (even with medication) it just does more mental damage, taking a piece of my heart and making me go further into darkness. I cannot find enjoyment in anything, I cannot focus on anything, I cannot feel my body very much (to me love within correlates with awareness of body)
I cannot meditate, I just get lost in sensations.
Time has not been healing, it has been creating more friction.
I really want to open my heart to love again and find equanimity. I have been totally stuck for months now.
I googled Om Mani Padme Hum. Reading that it can purify the minds/hearts of even hell beings, lol it made me feel optimistic. Is there some sort of thing I can do. I have tried loving kindness and it doesn’t really work that much. I am in therapy and I am able to do emotional release sometimes but then the fear comes back and just rips my heart out again .

[Alex]

Hi Sarahpro

I'm sorry to read you 've been struggling for some time now.

Is there some sort of thing I can do.

Yes! Take a step back...

It seems - from what you write - that you’ve experienced for yourself that resisting the fear is not helping (maybe on the contrary), nor have you found any escape or bypass strategy. Time alone also doesn't seem to help.

So what do you make of this? What can you learn from it?

Kindly
Alex

[Dhamma]

Dear Sarahpro,

I am so sorry to hear that you are deep in samsara.

Don't resist the fear, but learn to sit with it. If you begin to shake, let yourself shake and lie down. Try to do nothing at all when the terrible feelings come. Don't force anything. Sit with it as long as you can. At the same time, do this in moderation: if the fear gets too intense, and you think you're going to faint, then back off. Don't put yourself in hell, but go as close to it as you can.

The Holy Buddha promised that all things shall pass, even our darkest moments. Happiness is waiting, if we "just be." Even our darkest moments are just thoughts generated by the mind. They have no inherent existence, no matter how terrifying they may be. I promise you that, and so did the Holy Buddha.

I suggest you try to TRE therapy. Though it's not a Buddhist practice, it's a very effective and simple exercise that helps us "shake off" our fears (animals "shake off" their traumas and fears). No Buddhist would be opposed to this. It's just lying down and let your body release built-up traumas and fears. You do nothing but trigger a "shaking off "period. This will help you realize that your all states are impermanent as you see things being released in your muscles; and, it will help you in your Buddhist practice, to see that your mind affects your body. Let the body go, let the mind go. Yes, our thoughts get entangled in our bodies. Buddhism emphasizes too much the  idea that our minds affect our bodies, and "not" the reverse: that our bodies affect our minds. This is where the yogis are more correct. That said, I am still a strong Buddhist overall in my beliefs.

May you, like me, and all others fulfill our deepest wish: to be forever happy.

Peace and enlightenment.

[Sarahpro]

Thanks for the responses , kind people.
I don’t know if I am learning anything.
I have resisted the fear for 4 months now, my mind now lost equanimity. When the fear arises, I do not feel I have a choice to sit with it. I am waiting for love and equanimity. This has happened in the past. I resisted fear for a year, and then my heart spontaneously opened, and a few days later the fear came and I just went into it.
So right now I am not waiting to face the fear but waiting to heal. My heart is reluctant to open. I am trying everything - therapy, healing etc. Maybe it IS working and I am still just stuck in negativity.

It is not just the fear that I am waiting to pass. It is this state of lack of eqUnimity. I am waiting for love. I am worried it will not come because my ego is too strong to let it in now.

[Thanisaro85]

I am resisting very hard not to reply this thread, as I am afraid that I am not getting what is going on with the thing you are facing.

Sin on me if I am wrong🙏.

1. I assume you do not have a very strong foundation of meditation.
2. If possible, don't meditate. Maintaining awareness is good enough.
3. Do deep but slow breathing for at least 1 min everytime u remember.

Do you know how awareness can help?
It help by identify the feeling as a individual eement, which can be later on separated from the "you".  ( later on mean if you do it constantly with result, be realistic)
Also, it help to interrupt the continuous flow of the unpleasant feeling. That moment when you are aware of the mood, you can actually feel neutral for a short while, few seconds. Please watch the YouTube video which illustrate how the man singing interrupted the cat angriness. It works the same way. But we just need to do it( like the man) so constantly to break the chain of unpleasant feeling.

https://youtu.be/XYcFKgox2Y4

Will the traumatic feeling get away? Highly likely not, so this is the exercise(awareness) we need to keep doing until it become a habit.

Have you ever train for 100m run?it is as hard as that if you are not a born althele. Its painful and tiring and it months to years to become good, but just push on. You are already in a living hell, what could be worse than training interrupting with mindfulness?

The above is the spiritual part.

For physical part, tell your doctor that the medication is not helping. Whatever medicine that they prescribed should minimise the pain you going thru, not worse. Perhap a change of doctor too.

1. Drink at least 8 cup plain water per day.
2. Exercise moderately, even long distance walking is fine.
3. Be talkative, it works by distracting you from the lousy mood.
4. Sun, various vitamins*(check with your doctors),believe in it.
5. Cut down caffeine/sugar if needed.


Last but not least, ARE YOU WILLING to overcome the current situation? We may ask for advises and helps but sometime we are so overwhelmed by the pain and got use to submerging it, unknowingly.

Unless you understood how meditation works or how to go about it, doing it blindly is not going to help unless you hit the jackpot by chance.


May the kindness of reverend Father Pramote help relieve you from the pain.

https://youtu.be/uNy5FrcBIpQ

[Sarahpro]

Thanks for responding ..
The thing is, people keep encouraging me to practice mindfulness but I am already aware of everything . Just lacking equanimity. I see all the thoughts in my head, and they come, and I’m like fuuuuck this isn’t getting anywhere. It’s just hard to start with very little equanimity. I am looking for love and equanimity.
I wonder about mantras like Om Mani Padme Hum, can they help open me up and surrender my ego mind.

[Thanisaro85]

Thanks for responding ..
The thing is, people keep encouraging me to practice mindfulness but I am already aware of everything . Just lacking equanimity. I see all the thoughts in my head, and they come, and I’m like fuuuuck this isn’t getting anywhere. It’s just hard to start with very little equanimity. I am looking for love and equanimity.
I wonder about mantras like Om Mani Padme Hum, can they help open me up and surrender my ego mind.

I hope u have watch the video I attached, the talk by Reverend father. There might be answer to your need.

In your message my impression is that you are suffering from anxiety. Could u describe at least 1 day of activities going thru your body and mind? Are you saying that during awake times you do not have even 10 mins of peace? And your mind is running non stop?

Note that even accomplished meditators and monks, need some medications to relieve some symptoms

You could chant Om mani padme Hom. Remember to make a wish for the remedy to your situation after chanting. If do it faithfully , constantly, someone may appear in your life to help you. It can be anyone from doctors to spiritual teacher, or even a road sweeper, no pun intended.

Or alternatively,  you could chant Namo Avalo Kite shavarah. Read about Avalo kite.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalokiteśvara

[stillpointdancer]

Thanks for responding ..
The thing is, people keep encouraging me to practice mindfulness but I am already aware of everything . Just lacking equanimity. I see all the thoughts in my head, and they come, and I’m like fuuuuck this isn’t getting anywhere. It’s just hard to start with very little equanimity. I am looking for love and equanimity.
I wonder about mantras like Om Mani Padme Hum, can they help open me up and surrender my ego mind.

It would be interesting to explore what you mean by "I am already aware of everything". Mindfulness is going beyond observing both what is out there and what is happening in your mind goes deeper into, for example, why the thoughts in your head are as they are. Equanimity can be seen as the end point of practice, the result of enlightenment perhaps rather than something you are "just lacking", which, I think, could apply to most of us here, or why else are we here? If you are stuck on mindfulness then perhaps you need to explore other areas of practice, since mindfulness is only one strand of the path.

[Sarahpro]

By being aware I mean I am just aware of the content but doesn’t stop me from having a really hard time with it, with releasing it and finding joy and meaning. I don’t know what else I could explore. People have suggested metta which is also super hard right now.

[Sarahpro]

Also, no, not ten minutes of peace, I cannot remember what peace is like. My ego is constantly working. Only peace during sleep I’d imagine and even sleep I’m active in my dreams
I just want to somehow be above my ego mind but I can’t find the gap between thoughts

[stillpointdancer]

Maybe concentrate on yourself for a while. There are plenty of 'feel-good' meditations out there to help you in how you feel about yourself. Lots of us found it hard to feel good about ourselves, to relax and enjoy the meditation which will then help us enjoy what it means to be ourselves. A combination of relaxation meditations and counting the breath once I was relaxed helped me when I was a teacher, stressed out by teaching in a busy school and running a household on very little money.

[Alex]

The thing is, people keep encouraging me to practice mindfulness but I am already aware of everything . Just lacking equanimity. I see all the thoughts in my head, and they come, and I’m like fuuuuck this isn’t getting anywhere. It’s just hard to start with very little equanimity. I am looking for love and equanimity.

By being aware I mean I am just aware of the content...

I don’t know if I am learning anything.

Sarahpro, I can see how much you just want to feel better...
And this is not happening, because there are things to be learned. Life is asking something from you.
If you haven't learned anything about your predicament in the last few months that's proof enough that there's a lack of understanding the problem/solution.

About attention

There is primitive type of attention in threat-like situation: attention is narrowly focussed (on perceived threat), shifts involuntarily (to threat cues). There is low level of present-moment awareness. The focus is on content of our thoughts. In science this is called bottom-up attention.

The more cognitively complex attention (that allows for skilfull emotion processing) on the other hand shifts flexibly, to the full range of internal and external inputs, it is more open and inquisitive, ready to learn. It can monitor and guide the process. This is called top-down attention.

Try to shift away from the content to the process of what is happening. Notice you're having a thought instead of being fused with the content of the thought. Notice what your experience is like, it's more of a bundle of toughts, feelings, physical sensations, memories or associations, there is so much to explore!

For example the thought "fuuuuck this isn’t getting anywhere" is a thought. You can beleive it's content and let fear or despair run free, or you can detach from the thought and choose to look at the process. "I'm having the thought. It's creating arousal. I feel it in my stomach or (wherever you feel it)." etc. This is present moment awareness or mindfulness and (to the degree possible) equanimity. Equanimity doesn't mean absence of unpleasant experiences, it just means you 're able to stay with these experiences without losing your mindfulness. Being at peace with the experience of fear.

Minfulness, acceptance, metta, therapy... all these (and many other) practices aim to shift from bottom-up to top-down attention towards these normal human experiences (like fear or other intense emotion like anger).

About the process

But it is a process and... it... will... take... time!   

You will have to do it again and again and again... untill you (your body-mind) learn(s) how to handle these unpleasant internal and external events in a skilfull way.
That's just the way it is. I'm sorry you're suffering, but wishing to find a fix, complaining you're not finding the escape, is just prolong your suffering. Can you see that?

It is hard, but you can do this work, with your therapist, with the help of meditation or other practices, because we're all doing it... in our own way... feeling, exploring, learning our way out of the suffering.

You're not alone in this, but only you can do this work. The choice is yours. What are you willing to do yourself? Are you willing to stop avoiding and fighting your fear, so you can become familiar with it and learn from it?

Kindly
Alex

[Sarahpro]

Thank you so much Alex. Incredibly helpful. Yes I can see how I am self sabotaging and mindfriking again and again. I am addicted. Maybe this will be my last forum complaint
The issue is due to this dissociation it is getting harder for me to actually feel my emotions...I am quite numb so without feeling it it’s hard to really be that equanimous observer. I can work on thought level for sure though, but just seems like running on a hamster wheel. But I have to try
And the fact that I can’t currently sit with the fear means it is doing increased damage ie making me feel more separate from others....creating new layers of ego separation....this is a reason I post on forums, cuz I don’t know if mindfulness alone can help....until I get to some point where I am able to totally let go and love rushes in again and am no longer separate...that’s the goal anyway lol

[Sarahpro]

Ya so I am just having a hard time fathoming what the work could look like. If things are worsening over time- social withdrawal, apathy, disconnection, feeling less engaged in life - I just don’t know how being mindful and not feeding my thoughts will help. I guess the idea is that I’d let go of the attachment TO these phenomena happening.
Also I don’t know how I’m not friked cuz I mean my ego structure is just strengthening more and more, the part of it that feels so separate from everyone and everything. I don’t know how simply working with thoughts, can help. It doesn’t ameliorate the suffering, I can be mindful of my thoughts but still feel so bored and disconnected from whatever I’m doing, just waiting to feel something again. I know you said this will take time. I just haven’t seen any progress at all. People say I haven’t really started. Maybe this is true, here I am complaining.
Like a typical day is me in the garden just bored and waiting for it to finish, or playing volleyball and noticing feeling disconnected, and not wanting to do much else, just go on forums and figure out how to get spiritual deliverance. I do not see how working on thought level, can help. But maybe even the Buddha himself would say not to heed all these thoughts and just focus on the present moment. To me the present moment is so empty though. I guess that’s just another judgment. A lot to let go of. Worried my clinging ego will never let go.
Finally , in my dark night of the soul a couple years ago it ended when my heart spontaneously rose into love and equanimity during an intimate encounter. Is it reasonable to believe I can recreate this? I am just so obsessed I don’t know how to stop it, but I don’t know how to be ok with life with an unopened heart and lack of joy etc, and don’t see how working at thought level can do this

[Alex]

Hi Sarahpro

Thanks for sharing some more.  It’s making crystal clear that you’re stuck in a web of your own thoughts. And it confirms you haven’t really started.
Your coping strategies have just been strengthening your thinking, tightening the web more and more. I guess this is what you mean when you write ego is getting stronger.
This is also the reason why you’re disconnected from your body and others. Attention is not able to connect to your senses, there is no receptivity; negative thinking and judgements are blocking your experience.

Ya so I am just having a hard time fathoming what the work could look like.

Well that’s a thought  And it reveals a rule you live by. “I have to understand and know where it’s going before I do this.”
You might let that hold you back, and continue with your old strategies that semm unhelpful… but consider this… if this practice is leading to a NEW perspective, or a NEW relationship to thinking, then how would you be able to understand that NOW?
Maybe the whole point is to be confused, to not know where this is going, and because you have a little faith in this practice... to feel your way forward, and learn, and then to arrive at something new, gain a little insight, let go a little, become a little bit more free…. and build on that…

And yes, this is hard to just be an observer and feel the way that you do.
As a fellow human being, among a group of fellow human beings on this forum.. we know it's hard. But it can be done, one breath at a time.
We are all here because we chose not to run away from (the unpleasantness that is inevitably part of) the experience of being a human being, and instead to the radical opposite: PAY ATTENTION and learn.

You are welcome to join. But ask yourself “Am I willing to commit to a different strategy?"

[Sarahpro]

Ok.... thanks for this
So is it reasonable that if I ignore all my thoughts I can break free....?
I wake up and have these thoughts of “I feel so empty” “I feel so disconnected” “it’s getting worse automatically” “I don’t want to do anything” “I want to sleep forever” and then I get up and it’s just about getting thru the day...... so ya working with therapist she says to tel let mind to shut up but my mind is trying to help me feel some happiness although clearly not working....
I have just been watching things steadily get worse since April. Back in April I was joking and laughing some, and could coherently understand my thoughts, and was doing some activities with engagement.
It’s just hard to be with what is.
I am expecting some magical spiritual breakthrough- that if I am mindful enough and can detach, I all of a sudden WILL feel like engaging again and will feel some happiness..... sooo ya I am very stuck in a web of my own thoughts but it also feels like underneath there is nothing....currently no love or joy in my heart even if I do try to feel it...so what to do
And the reason I was feeding my thoughts so much since April is that it was accompanied by great anxiety. So I could hardly sit still and be with it, and therefore would reach for the phone and message my therapist. For example I’d be playing a game and would have thoughts of evaluating how I am doing and judging myself and feel anxious and beg to use my phone to message her haha. Anything to make this stop. So you are right, I have not really started yet....I have not truly just let it be, no matter how uncomfortable...cuz I don’t know how long this will go on for.
Even back in April when I was way more clear and together and in my body, I would feel anxiety about things worsening, and it would take a ton of stamina to sit thru it and not complain. Now, I am so dissociated from my body it is just so hard to exist. All I have is the promise that if I just carry on, ignore my thought, ignore the anxiety, that things will get better. I do not really know how this works

[Alex]

Hi Sarahpro

We are repeating ourselves:
- you think all these thoughts are helpfull and you know they're not
- what you're going through is hard (I hear you, and I'm very sorry it's been like that for a while now)
- you're not willing to sit with the uncomfortable stuff unless you know for how long you will have to

So, enough with the words, just a reminder that you are dodging the question: are you willing to commit to a different strategy, to use your capacity to make choices, to do the work yourself, not knowing how and when it would help you?

And if you're not, what would you need to say "yes"?

Kindly
Alex

[Sarahpro]

YES....I am.....no matter how disconnected from my body, how apathetic I am, how separate I feel from others, no matter how big my ego is gotten....No matter how much worse I worry it’s getting and moving further from myself/the goal.....I guess I MUST carry on and just do, and not complain ..... and trust........?
I guesss I worry this is impossible . Partly because I cannot feel my body really so how am I supposed to sit with the discomfort. It’s all just thoughts I’m sitting with. And partly because of the fully dissolved ego structure thing. We need a healthy ego in order to dissolve it- and that’s ultimately what I want to do; to experience love I suppose...? Am I wrong... but ya I worry that my unhealthy ego will just build and build since my mind is panicking and fully exposed..... But that’s a thought too, that it’s impossible. And it’s been programmed into me...and the Buddha did say nothing is impossible....but it is a fact that this fear I resisted is kinda corroding me so I worry that until I am able to face it it will destroy my spirit....! Ok I don’t care about that I just want to be free from my mind and let in love
Just to clarify what the work is.::: being with the thoughts. And not feeding them or identifying with them (even if some are true such as things are getting worse)
Am I right?
And well I guess I need to know that this work will lead to my ultimate goal which is love.
From my experience love happened when I let go and stopped thinking so much.
Sounds easier said than done. Each moment there is a problem.
But
Eventually
This
Would
Be
Nice. 💖💖

[JvilleJeff]

Give it time, time heals all

[Sarahpro]

Time has only been making things worse but maybe my impatience and negativity is fueling this
And I also want to ask...can this work EVEN if my mind has been descending further into the dark? Complete darkness, not moved by even the cutest kitten, completely hardened, well almost. And this has gotten worse, back in April I was crying and crying in moments of love.
Also about the equanimity. I have been resisting the fear for months now. Not as a choice- well the first month or so was a choice, because I was told by some people that the fear was an external entity I had to fight, so I actively resisted. By the time I tried to accept it it was too painful and led to panic. Now I’m so in my head I can barely connect with the fear energetically. It’s all just a mess of thoughts, panic, and reactivity. Ok I know these thoughts aren’t helping either but I am really caught in a catch 22.
My only hope is that if I work at thought level and detach myself this will open up some magical portal of equanimity to get back in my body and accept the sensations. Technically this is what has happened before I guess.

[Thanisaro85]

Y - I just don’t know how being mindful and not feeding my thoughts will help. I guess the idea is that I’d let go of the attachment TO these phenomena happening.

Like watching them and you become peaceful or normal?
No, it doesn't help the way you think.  It does not work like a pill that sedate you in a min. At least Not at this point.

As you are aware of your thoughts, the sad, anxious feeling is still there and will be there, but still, you continue to watch them and see them pass. I know you already well verse in this inside out, what you may not understand is that at this point, the low feeling will still be there. That is what make you struggle.

What awareness of the mind is-  to segregate the arising of the feeling, to disassociate with the thoughts. The feeling is one entity, the thoughts is another entity. Even if there are no thoughts, the feeling is Still there, no peace, no comfort.

So next, because when you are mindful of the thoughts, they stopped. It just work that way, but of course the powerful thoughts ejecting machine that is temporary working abnormally, will continue ejects thoughts non stop immediately.

Let's say you manage to stop the continuous thoughts  for a while, you turn to look at the feeling, look at the feeling, just look at the feeling, and look at the feeling.....it subsided .....you may be also be familiar with this...idk...

Then, unfortunately, you have peace for a short while, then wrecking feeling came back again. The heavy feeling just follow you every day. Like you feel like you don't see the light ever.....it is just not the same anymore.

Coming to term with it you might see changes, not kudos to it. Like managing a new body, new mind.

My anxiety still kicks in anytime, triggering non stop scary and ridiculous thoughts. But mindfulness allow me to interrupt the thoughts and then the feeling( not 100%). Still pacing up and down at my home, but it subsided quicker than ever. The cold feet feeling will still be there for the whole day or sometimes the next day. Tomorrow the state of mind is entirely different.

The overall experiences from a normal person to the current state is entirely different, but I learnt to accept it, and I am pretty happy now. At least I know the differences between a normal person and people who suffer from all these mental disturbance, and that i can understand and sympathise with them, and help them as much as I could. I was an angry person, but never a hateful person in the past.

[Sarahpro]

Thanks for this, yeah I’m constantly aware of the thoughts but it’s just hard to feel heavy as you said, feel no joy or love etc. As I mentioned as for the anxiety feeling I’ve gotten so dissociated from my body that I don’t really even feel it, it’s just thoughts plus a TON of aversion, nothing can quell the aversion - except the thought that I WILL get better. So ya mindfulness right now is me waiting to feel again

[Thanisaro85]

Time has only been making things worse but maybe my impatience and negativity is fueling this
And I also want to ask...can this work EVEN if my mind has been descending further into the dark? Complete darkness, not moved by even the cutest kitten, completely hardened, well almost. And this has gotten worse, back in April I was crying and crying in moments of love.
Also about the equanimity. I have been resisting the fear for months now. Not as a choice- well the first month or so was a choice, because I was told by some people that the fear was an external entity I had to fight, so I actively resisted. By the time I tried to accept it it was too painful and led to panic. Now I’m so in my head I can barely connect with the fear energetically. It’s all just a mess of thoughts, panic, and reactivity. Ok I know these thoughts aren’t helping either but I am really caught in a catch 22.
My only hope is that if I work at thought level and detach myself this will open up some magical portal of equanimity to get back in my body and accept the sensations. Technically this is what has happened before I guess.

depression and anxiety all in one pack. 

I hope that there are one, just anyone person here or any forums, can lead you to light. I always believe in affinity, frequency and chemistry. Pray, Sarahpro, pray sincerely.🙏🙏🙏

[stillpointdancer]

There's a useful Ted Talk by Zindel Segal here, https://www.mindful.org/the-mindful-way-through-depression-video/ which may help. He was the co-founder of mindfulness-based cognitive therapy, made famous by Jon Kabat-Zinn.

[Sarahpro]

Thank you...I actually got a book on depression by him....I just don’t see how it could help though haha. I am already aware of the little sensations in my body I can feel, and I am aware of all these negative thoughts, but can’t seem to climb out. My therapist WAnts me to actually work with the thoughts like shift them into positives and insists this can create change on a deeper level. I am filled with doubt but obviously it doesn’t feel great right now to continually tell myself I’m f**ked and have no chance.