Sitting meditation- body falls forward

[Thanisaro85]

It seems that when my family of 4 meditate to the stage of complete thoughtless, where the consciousness is well position at the abdominal, our upper torso( from head to lower back) will bend forward, this is during state where the breathe is very shallow, not sleeping though.

Is this becos of a weak lower back or do you think this is norm?

Have anyone achieve thoughtless stage when your back are straightened in the whole process?

Sorry i was not familiar with the pali terms for different state of mind for meditation.

[Amanaki]

 If you notice your body leaning forward even in a deep meditation you can make the adjustment to get your back  correct again.
The experience of no thought are a stage of the meditation for those who have practiced over longer times.
Personally I have experienced this not only in sitting meditation but also in daily life because of the mindfulness of what is happening around me or when i doing a task. Noticing/being aware of the movement you do to the point that you do not have a past or a future you thinking of, only the moment you experience right now.

Thoughts are no longer important except if asked a direct question from other people around

[Thanisaro85]

If you notice your body leaning forward even in a deep meditation you can make the adjustment to get your back  correct again.
The experience of no thought are a stage of the meditation for those who have practiced over longer times.
Personally I have experienced this not only in sitting meditation but also in daily life because of the mindfulness of what is happening around me or when i doing a task. Noticing/being aware of the movement you do to the point that you do not have a past or a future you thinking of, only the moment you experience right now.

Thoughts are no longer important except if asked a direct question from other people around

Once i adjusted my body a little upright, the tranquility sensation will be gone, and when i go into the thoughtless state again, the body fall forward again, so at this point i just ignore it and let it be.

I have a lot of questions regarding mindfulness in daily life activities, is inspiring to know that calmness can be achieve during daily activities. Would be grateful if you can share some experiences you had.

In daily activites,
1. When you are walking from point A to point B, lets say at work, do you watch(mindful of) your mind or watch (mindful of)your walking? If you watch your walking, sometime thoughts arises, how do you deal with that.

2. In a work place, sometime one will have a lot of movement like picking up the phone to speak and pick up a pen to take note, where to set the mindfulness?

3. When one is writing a email, one has to think of what to write, how can one be mindfulness while trying to "think" of what to write?.

4. If one superior is reprimanding one, if we set the mindfulness at the ear and acknowledge " sound", we will not be able to process the message the superior trying to bring across, then we wouldnt understand what needed to be done or correct? Or at this point we should be only paying attention? But if we pay attention to, we will receive the harsh word that make us upset.

5. For your experiences, do you work/move in a slower than your normal speed?

Hope my questions are not too bothersome . Thank you.

[Amanaki]

I think you complicate the mindfulness prosess

When i do work with something i am mindful of what i do in the way that if the phone is ringing i answer it and if it is information i need to write down  i am aware that i am speaking and writing in the same time I do not make mentl note of every singel aspect of what i do. only being aware of the moment.

When i am moving or walking i am aware that i put my foot down or lifting it, and notice where i put it so i do not step on insects or bugs. And i am aware of the soroundings like cars, people, houses noticing if someone are in my path, i walk away or around them. Being mindful of this moment, not daydreaming of past or future.

When i write this message to you, i am mindful of what you want to learn, how i can make a best answer for you. But i do not think of other daily things in this moment. If someone ask me something here in the room i sit, i stop the writing and listen to the person who ask. Then i notice the question and if needed to think i do so for this situation, and when finish answering i go back to your message here

If of some reason a person reprimand me or get angry i feel compassion for this person, but i do not get angry or upset. accepting the situation as it arise and understand that what happens are only for a short moment and it is passed. No need to get angry or upset.

Actually when you are aware/mindfull in the moment you can work/walk faster then normal because you are fully aware of what happens arund you or the task you are performing.

Feel free to ask other questions if you want

[Thanisaro85]

Thank you for the reply.

Yup i think i had complicated the mindfulness process.

But just doing as what you mentioned, is it really possible to fall into calm state while doing daily activities? Or is it becos in some of the work time, you are actually meditating?

[Amanaki]

Meditation happens all the time when you live in the moment and not dwelling in the past or worry for the future
So when mind is not affected by the daily life you stay in almost bliss all the time

Thoughts only comes when nessesary the background noise or thoughts are no longer there.

[Thanisaro85]

Meditation happens all the time when you live in the moment and not dwelling in the past or worry for the future
So when mind is not affected by the daily life you stay in almost bliss all the time

Thoughts only comes when nessesary the background noise or thoughts are no longer there.

🙏🙏🙏😀.  Feeling blissful knowing your experiences. Thank you.

[Amanaki]

Very welcome

[Matthew]

Upper body falling forward may be due to shallow breathing. Try lifting the head gently up and back, relaxing the chest and looking at the floor 1 to 1½m in front of you. This will encourage breathing from the diaphragm and good back posture.

[stillpointdancer]

If you are meditating with others you could ask one of them to watch you as you sit, and observe when you start to lean forwards.

[Thanisaro85]

Upper body falling forward may be due to shallow breathing. Try lifting the head gently up and back, relaxing the chest and looking at the floor 1 to 1½m in front of you. This will encourage breathing from the diaphragm and good back posture.

But isnt it normal during meditation the breath become shallow? I was thinking perhap when the mind become calm, the breathing become shallow by itself. When the breathing is shallow, my observation is that the mind dont settle down.

[Thanisaro85]

If you are meditating with others you could ask one of them to watch you as you sit, and observe when you start to lean forwards.

Ok, so what should they do when my body lean forward? By the way, my kids who meditate with me, the body also lean forward when they goes into calmness state.

[emptyhand]

Upper body falling forward may be due to shallow breathing. Try lifting the head gently up and back, relaxing the chest and looking at the floor 1 to 1½m in front of you. This will encourage breathing from the diaphragm and good back posture.

But isnt it normal during meditation the breath become shallow? I was thinking perhap when the mind become calm, the breathing become shallow by itself. When the breathing is shallow, my observation is that the mind dont settle down.

I think you have quite a few expectations of how your meditation session should pan out. IMO, until you start dropping your expectations, you'll fall into the pit of overthinking and thus your meditation will suffer. I used to analyse what was being said in the retreat or by various other practitioners to a great extent trying to adjust myself to how it worked for them. Whilst there are some guidelines, you should stop worrying and just get on with it and see what works for you.

Body leaning forward? Not a problem. Slooooowly bring it back to be straight, as slow as humanly possible. Keep watching the breath as you do so. Sometimes I find myself unable to bring it back slowly, so I mentally accept that I will "reset" my posture, do so and then continue being mindful of my breath.

It's like the monkey in your mind, constantly wandering away. You shouldn't beat the monkey. It's merely not trained. Over time, you're able to develop better state of concentration and calmness. Similarly, the body is such too. Over time, I noticed it took less and less mental effort to keep it straight. Whenever I would want to slouch, my muscles would engage automatically to correct it

[Matthew]

Upper body falling forward may be due to shallow breathing. Try lifting the head gently up and back, relaxing the chest and looking at the floor 1 to 1½m in front of you. This will encourage breathing from the diaphragm and good back posture.

But isnt it normal during meditation the breath become shallow? I was thinking perhap when the mind become calm, the breathing become shallow by itself. When the breathing is shallow, my observation is that the mind dont settle down.

Shallow breathing and the upper body falling forwards shows you are probably not breathing from the diaphragm. Strengthening back muscles through maintaining an upright posture, combined with diaphragmatic breathing will overcome these issues unless there is an underlying medical problem. In modern living most people do not hold good posture throughout the day: working at a desk, lounging on sofas and a general lack of movement and exercise all add up to a weak back, a tendency to slouch and restriction of the diaphragm.

[Thanisaro85]

Shallow breathing and the upper body falling forwards shows you are probably not breathing from the diaphragm. Strengthening back muscles through maintaining an upright posture, combined with diaphragmatic breathing will overcome these issues unless there is an underlying medical problem. In modern living most people do not hold good posture throughout the day: working at a desk, lounging on sofas and a general lack of movement and exercise all add up to a weak back, a tendency to slouch and restriction of the diaphragm.
[/quote]

This may explain why i encounter this, thanks for the extra infos, i will look into breathing from the disphragm infos.


Btw, would like to correct my one of my phrases earlier on...

It should be written as,
<< When the breathing is normal, my observation is that the mind dont settle down.>>