Author Topic: Is vipassana and mindfulness the same thing?  (Read 821 times)

Patrice

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Is vipassana and mindfulness the same thing?
« on: October 19, 2017, 12:50:39 AM »
My girlfriend asked me this question and I just didn't have an answer to it.

The way I understand it, mindfulness is a big part of vipassana but are they the same thing? I think vipassana is more than mindfulness but I'm really not a reference in the matter.

Could anyone help with this question?

Thanks

georg7887

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Re: Is vipassana and mindfulness the same thing?
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2017, 06:25:51 AM »
Hello Patrice. In my understanding, mindfulness is the vehicle to Vipassana. Vipassana is often translated as"to see the things as they really are" vor insight. And with mindfulness this is possible, e.g. see the arising and vanishing of annica, dukkha, anatta. An "watching" the coming and going oft those things brings you insight.
Greetings, Georg

Patrice

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Re: Is vipassana and mindfulness the same thing?
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2017, 01:04:40 AM »
Hello Patrice. In my understanding, mindfulness is the vehicle to Vipassana. Vipassana is often translated as"to see the things as they really are" vor insight. And with mindfulness this is possible, e.g. see the arising and vanishing of annica, dukkha, anatta. An "watching" the coming and going oft those things brings you insight.
Greetings, Georg

Hello Georg, Thank you for your reply. I was about to say I get it but then I figured I need to think about your answer. it's still not clear enough to me to even try answering the question for someone else  ::)

Middleway

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Re: Is vipassana and mindfulness the same thing?
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2017, 11:42:58 AM »
Mindfulness is opposite of forgetfulness.
Take everything I say with a grain of salt.

Laurent

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Re: Is vipassana and mindfulness the same thing?
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2017, 03:37:15 PM »
It dépends on the terms meaning, though i don't think they re exactly the same.
Mindfulness is more about Sati, the first awakening factor and the seventh of the eightfold path.
Vipassana is rather about analysis and deep vision of reality which succeeds to Sati, and can refer to the second awakening factor, dhamma vicaya.
Vipassana arises naturally when one trains mindfulness constantly and properly.

stillpointdancer

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Re: Is vipassana and mindfulness the same thing?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2017, 03:16:01 PM »
It dépends on the terms meaning, though i don't think they re exactly the same.
Mindfulness is more about Sati, the first awakening factor and the seventh of the eightfold path.
Vipassana is rather about analysis and deep vision of reality which succeeds to Sati, and can refer to the second awakening factor, dhamma vicaya.
Vipassana arises naturally when one trains mindfulness constantly and properly.
This can become a problem with the kinds of secular mindfulness introduced into the workplace. That unintended insight can develop using mindfulness practices in a context not supportive of such consequences.
“You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet, still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet.” Franz Kafka

Patrice

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Re: Is vipassana and mindfulness the same thing?
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2017, 02:41:01 AM »
It dépends on the terms meaning, though i don't think they re exactly the same.
Mindfulness is more about Sati, the first awakening factor and the seventh of the eightfold path.
Vipassana is rather about analysis and deep vision of reality which succeeds to Sati, and can refer to the second awakening factor, dhamma vicaya.
Vipassana arises naturally when one trains mindfulness constantly and properly.

Ok this is starting to make more sense to me. I see how mindfulness is more about sati. It’s less obvious to me how sankappa (right thought) fits in the “definition” of mindfulness though. 

 
 
Quote
Hello Patrice. In my understanding, mindfulness is the vehicle to Vipassana. Vipassana is often translated as"to see the things as they really are" vor insight. And with mindfulness this is possible, e.g. see the arising and vanishing of annica, dukkha, anatta. An "watching" the coming and going oft those things brings you insight.
Greetings, Georg

I did some reading to better understand what you meant by mindfulness is the vehicle to vipassana”. What you said became clearer to me after I read about the eightfold path again. The practice of vipassana can be divided in steps and the development of awareness/mindfulness is one of them. Awareness alone is not vipassana but without awareness there is no vipassana. Does this reflect what you meant by your answer? 


Quote
This can become a problem with the kinds of secular mindfulness introduced into the workplace. That unintended insight can develop using mindfulness practices in a context not supportive of such consequences.

Hello. Would you mind elaborating a little more about this? I’m not sure I fully understand what you mean. Thank you!

Laurent

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Re: Is vipassana and mindfulness the same thing?
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2017, 10:44:08 PM »

Ok this is starting to make more sense to me. I see how mindfulness is more about sati. It’s less obvious to me how sankappa (right thought) fits in the “definition” of mindfulness though.

The seventh fold is samma sati, unless you are talking about the threefold division (morality, meditation and insight).
It is also important to consider that in the noble path, this is right mindfulness, aka samma Sati. Not all kinds of mindfulness are samma sati.


Middleway

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Re: Is vipassana and mindfulness the same thing?
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2017, 12:13:30 AM »
It dépends on the terms meaning, though i don't think they re exactly the same.
Mindfulness is more about Sati, the first awakening factor and the seventh of the eightfold path.
Vipassana is rather about analysis and deep vision of reality which succeeds to Sati, and can refer to the second awakening factor, dhamma vicaya.
Vipassana arises naturally when one trains mindfulness constantly and properly.

Ok this is starting to make more sense to me. I see how mindfulness is more about sati. It’s less obvious to me how sankappa (right thought) fits in the “definition” of mindfulness though. 

 
 
Quote
Hello Patrice. In my understanding, mindfulness is the vehicle to Vipassana. Vipassana is often translated as"to see the things as they really are" vor insight. And with mindfulness this is possible, e.g. see the arising and vanishing of annica, dukkha, anatta. An "watching" the coming and going oft those things brings you insight.
Greetings, Georg

I did some reading to better understand what you meant by mindfulness is the vehicle to vipassana”. What you said became clearer to me after I read about the eightfold path again. The practice of vipassana can be divided in steps and the development of awareness/mindfulness is one of them. Awareness alone is not vipassana but without awareness there is no vipassana. Does this reflect what you meant by your answer? 


Quote
This can become a problem with the kinds of secular mindfulness introduced into the workplace. That unintended insight can develop using mindfulness practices in a context not supportive of such consequences.

Hello. Would you mind elaborating a little more about this? I’m not sure I fully understand what you mean. Thank you!

Patrice, you need to slow down. Take these words/ideas and contemplate on them. Their meaning will come to you. You cannot rush towards their meaning. They have to come to you.

Sankappa is intention or purpose. Sati or mindfulness is the faculty of mind that makes you remember and stay on the purpose. Suppose, your intention is to get home straight from work but you end up in the bar as usual. This means you were forgetful (opposite of being mindful). You forgot your intention to go straight to home from work. So, you not only have to "have" an "intention" to get home, you will have to remember (be mindful of) that intention at every exit/turn on the highway/road until you get home.  So, you sit on the cushion with an intention to observe your breathing. Then, you have to remember that intention from moment to moment to moment and not let your mind stray. This faculty of mind that makes you stay on task at hand is called sati or mindfulness.

Vipassana is insight into nature of things and nature of mind. When you practice mindfulness continuously, the insight into nature of things and mind arises. Insight is the fruit of the practice of uninterrupted mindfulness. 

Awareness is not faculty of mind. It is beyond mind. It is your aliveness. A piece of rock cannot be aware or have awareness. When you practice mindfulness continuously, it becomes a stream of awareness.

Hope this helps.

Middleway
Take everything I say with a grain of salt.

stillpointdancer

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Re: Is vipassana and mindfulness the same thing?
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2017, 04:43:27 PM »



Quote
This can become a problem with the kinds of secular mindfulness introduced into the workplace. That unintended insight can develop using mindfulness practices in a context not supportive of such consequences.

Hello. Would you mind elaborating a little more about this? I’m not sure I fully understand what you mean. Thank you!
I was researching mindfulness in the workplace for a book I was writing and came across some studies where this happened. I think one was using mindfulness to help with long term medical conditions. Some of those involved went off-task because the practice brought things up which were unexpected, such as revisiting issues from the past. Practicing within a sangha where help is readily available when the unexpected happens is hard enough, but to do this in a less supportive context is harder still.
“You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet, still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet.” Franz Kafka

Patrice

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Re: Is vipassana and mindfulness the same thing?
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2017, 01:53:28 AM »
Patrice, you need to slow down. Take these words/ideas and contemplate on them. Their meaning will come to you. You cannot rush towards their meaning. They have to come to you.

You're right, chewing on it a while will be good and I understand all that is to be experienced rather than learned in a book. But I still enjoy a little guiding in the process.

Quote
Sankappa is intention or purpose. Sati or mindfulness is the faculty of mind that makes you remember and stay on the purpose.
First thing that came to mind when I read this is "the opposite of an attention deficit disorder"

Quote
I was researching mindfulness in the workplace for a book I was writing and came across some studies where this happened. I think one was using mindfulness to help with long term medical conditions. Some of those involved went off-task because the practice brought things up which were unexpected, such as revisiting issues from the past. Practicing within a sangha where help is readily available when the unexpected happens is hard enough, but to do this in a less supportive context is harder still.


Thanks you!

Middleway

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Re: Is vipassana and mindfulness the same thing?
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2017, 11:46:03 AM »

Quote
Sankappa is intention or purpose. Sati or mindfulness is the faculty of mind that makes you remember and stay on the purpose.
First thing that came to mind when I read this is "the opposite of an attention deficit disorder"

No, ADD is not opposite of mindfulness. It is opposite of concentration. Attention is at tention (tension)  or concentration.
Take everything I say with a grain of salt.