Dharma Tripping: Meditation and Psychedelics

[mdr]

More mystically, when you are "open" in that way, various malicious entities can enter into your energetic field. I am not sure what is it called in Buddhist tradition, in Judaism it's dibbuk.
There is a reason that according to  Noble Eightfold Path intoxication is a no-no.

Depends on who your teacher is, in my place we're warned about strong Asuras (or yakkhas?) from occultists or temples.

Thank you for replying, rogp99, and thank you for sharing the knowledge, it's appreciated. 

[Attachless]

Attachless, i don't want to nag, but i really think doing drugs is NOT a good idea, especially if you are meditating. (Even if "micro", even if only occasionally.)

Most probably it will make the depression much worse in the long run. Besides what maybeimeditate writes, it can and often does trigger psychosis. More mystically, when you are "open" in that way, various malicious entities can enter into your energetic field. I am not sure what is it called in Buddhist tradition, in Judaism it's dibbuk.
There is a reason that according to  Noble Eightfold Path intoxication is a no-no.

I appreciate your concern, but I`m not doing this easy-minded, believe me. It seems to be a good idea ESPECIALLY because I`m meditating, because it gives me the proper awareness of the effects as to come to the most best conclusions -after- I`ve tried them, because it makes me somewhat sensitive to the effects on my mental, emotional well-being and overall energy-level, focus, etc.

"Most probably it will make the despression much worse in the long run".

It being "most probably" is, or seems to be, more or less just an opinion from your side. I`ve read researches (that have been done on it), and they seem positive. It is also adviced to take little amount, as to NOT have an psychedelic experience (actually being very far from getting there with microdosing) or that much heightened awareness. It`s subtle, very subtle. And beside that, it is adviced to be taken with 2-3 days break inbetween, so one can implement what one gets from it DESPITE using it, during days "off microdosing".

In contrast, when you take antidepressants, or equivalent, you become dependend on them. They close you to the symptoms (because they "override" it with stimula and feeling "normal", being able to "function in society"). Microdosing, with little amounts (as the name says), with using it every 3rd day and being active in life (or even more so - that`s the idea - by the help of microdosing) in regards to nutrition, exercising, meditation (or whatever calms your mind), relationships, work etc. will help maintain balance and happiness and get rid of depression, maybe get rid of victim-thinking often related to being depressed, too, and instead of "dwelling in it" actively doing something against it - and become active. It can reduce fear, stress etc. I will report once I have experienced it on myself (I will do it for 1-2 weeks, depending on the results) and expect least negative side effects, if any at all. For sure no psychosis or bad spirits or alike :-P In that regard, I think the fear and stress produced by fearing bad spirits, is much worser than having bad spirits but actually not believing into them as having a real, significant negative impact on oneself, but the very expectation/fear of it having possibly significant negative impact as such.

Here`s, for those interested, an article on a study on psycolobin.

http://www.gizmag.com/johns-hopkins-psilocybin-study-finds-optimum-beneficial-dosage/18981/

Also, another article, which is directly about microdosing (might want to check that one out as it is about the subject at hand):

http://highexistence.com/microdosing-lsd-psychedelic/

If it didn`t deem helpful (by what other people report), I wouldn`t give it a shot. And if I can help my friend on the way, even better. I`ll go very low, and write journal on my experiences. I won`t do it for too long. I will keep up meditating one hour morning, one hour evening, and whenever I find the time. I will keep up my daily exercising, and I will also note how it influences these practices and whether it gets enhanced by it, becomes easier etc., me being more motivated / in flow, better mood or not etc., and also how it influences my ability to grow (won`t go into specifics) - in general, doing the necessary stuff more, and doing less of the unimportant ones/distractions. Eventually, over the long run, it may help building up more good habits while eliminating the bad ones, much like journaling did for me with keeping meditation up as a habit every day.

I`m taking concerns into regards, but in this one I`ll go the road of personal experience over theoretical study and "what if`s" and "could be`s". Beside that, I don`t believe in reincarnation or enlightenment as the end of wheel - so my concern regarding "being reborn in a higher plain, having more joy, hence my ability for equanimity becoming lessened and my likelihood for not becoming free`d being reduced" is close to zero, and does in fact, not influence my decision making, even though the argumentation in itself might be coherent, it doesn't do much if you don`t agree on the common ground on which it is based :-)

May be able to try this out in 1-2 months, until then

kind regards


ps: they don`t trigger psychosis where there is non dormant already. Psychedelics may bring forth what is sleeping, and if that which is dormant is mental illnesses, then that`s what they reveal, because they reveal only -what is already there-. They won`t create psychosis, in my understanding and experience so far, where the is none. There are many factors going into this, that`s why safe usage is so important.

I also know that you are more open to others "energy" if you so will with psychedelics, which can be good and bad, as always, so I`m taking that into consideration, eventhough I`m not fearing spirits interfering with my well-being. Just effects and consequences.

pps: an "usual" LSD trip usually gets me out of pits and depression (which has been the case maybe 2 times in my life to help me), much like a 10 day retreat would do. Both are difficult, both are helpful, and only helpful in the long run when built upon. So I`m inclined to see the positive effects and possibilities much more than the fears/concerns associated by others regarding it. It is also important to take into consideration that world view (your common set of beliefs about anything, basically) plays a lot into experience itself, and what you are likely to get out of something. You get what you expect sometimes and more often than not, so attitude does in-fact impact results, too; this may ease your worry concerning me :-P

[Matthew]

Experience tells me that many psychoactive substances can give a temporary taste of the sublime: LSD, MDMA, Psilocybin ... humans have been using these substances over thousands of years. LSD and MDMA together used to be a personal favourite of mine at a point in time where I used drugs to taste the sublime - as the MDMA used to "cut in" if any kind of bad trip started occurring.

I'm not advocating the use of these substances at all. The Buddha's teachings on not taking intoxicating substances are clear: and for every high there is a down, for every "trip" a come-down.

They give a taste of the sublime, the beyond. This taste can also be found through following the path, however - and doing so leads not merely to tasting the sublime, it leads to inhabiting the sublime.

I have the book "Zig Zag Zen: Buddhism and Psychedelics" ... not because I purchased it, it was a gift, and I have yet to read it. A friend gave it to me a few years ago as Zigzagzen was an internet persona I wore at one time, and also reflective of the path I have followed.

Interesting discussion.

M

[stillpointdancer]

As a science teacher I was interested in experiencing changed perceptions of the world as described by Aldous Huxley in The Doors of Perception, but as a science teacher the last thing I wanted to do was to fill myself with drugs. That's why I took up meditation- to experience changed perceptions without the drugs. And it worked! However, when I later became a Buddhist I met many people who got into Buddhism and meditation through drugs, so maybe there can be a positive effect?

[Attachless]

In regards to "psychedelics create psychosis". They create psychosis as much as meditation does - that`s why, on retreats, you are usually asked about your mental stability and about prior mental illnesses, because it can bring up / reinforce such. It`s the same with psychedelics - both digs into your subconscious (if you want to call it that) and brings forth whatever is there. But what is there was there already anyway, so, I would avoid psychedelics as much as I would avoid meditation if I was thinking or fearing it would create psychosis - which it doesn`t in both cases; but with dormant psychosis, both is "dangerous". That doesn`t make meditation or psychedelics as such dangerous, you know what I mean? Or would you call meditation in general dangerous because it reinforces psychosis in some cases where there has been prior mental illnesses / instability and alike?

And, they are similar in many regards, but usually with meditation you can dig deeper, for longer, and more lasting. I always made the comparison that with psychedelics you take a gondola to the top of the mountain, but you go back again. With meditation, you will walk all that way yourself, but it`s one way. Whatever you walk is being walked - can`t go back. That`s also why many report drugs-experiences brought them to meditation, but meditation got them further usually in the long run - which it does definitely.

As a science teacher I was interested in experiencing changed perceptions of the world as described by Aldous Huxley in The Doors of Perception, but as a science teacher the last thing I wanted to do was to fill myself with drugs. That's why I took up meditation- to experience changed perceptions without the drugs. And it worked! However, when I later became a Buddhist I met many people who got into Buddhism and meditation through drugs, so maybe there can be a positive effect?

Brought me to meditation too, and always brings me back (or brought me back - no need anymore to "bring me back" :-)

[Matthew]

Neither meditation nor drugs "create psychosis".

Unresolved early life trauma creates the conditions for psychosis. An inability or failure to address this as an adult ripens it - and anything from too much time at home thinking, to meditation, drugs, alcohol or any number of other stimulus can trigger it as a presenting factor.