Author Topic: Disliking for meditation created by meditation  (Read 3044 times)

Attachless

  • Member
  • Write something about yourself here
    • Vipassana
Disliking for meditation created by meditation
« on: January 06, 2016, 06:05:26 PM »
Hey, I have something I sometimes struggle with. Basically it's like when I establish certain qualities of mind (calmness, steadyness, peacefulness, clear in perception) and also carry them into the day, and the moment I loose this focus and balance and get into what probably is "normal", getting torn by everday experiences (so being object to external experiences in regards to me being in peace or not), I have this contrast due to meditation that normally wouldn't be there, so from "external events not having impact on my peaceful mind" going to the opposite (which, prior to meditating, was the standard 24/7 I suppose), so before I had established a peaceful mind regardless of experiences, it was not much of a problem, but now with having this contrast when I "loose it" - sometimes not able to get it back until next sitting - I start to hate meditation, because although it enriches daily life, it - by creating this contrast - makes the lack of peacefulness almost unbearable, as if something fundamental is missing, which ends in me making my peacefulness dependent on this peacefulness (which is regardless of external circumstances), which then places conditions on me having a peaceful balanced mind, together with a desire to "not be out of peace" - which both make it worse, especially if I try too hard or fail to get back into a steady, calm state of mind.

Can someone relate to this and maybe help out with experiences in regards to dealing with this, and whether this is also bound to pass (or learned to be handled by keeping up the practice?), because sometimes this makes me want to stop, due to the uncomfortable contrast it often creates (in relation to "not practicing at all", which simply takes away the contrast and hence the explicit awareness of being unfocused and kind of scattered and unpeaceful, so basically being in that state most of the time, but not being aware of it).

Kind of could lead to the fundamental question whether suffering is that bad if one is not really aware of it and how to deal with the practice increasing awareness of suffering and hence seemingly increasing suffering itself (instead of eliminating the roots of it).

And what could be done to counteract this? I found that maybe I don't practice so little that it has no  impact on daily life, but maybe I also lack the consistency (and in contrast "practice enough") as to make the impact on daily life being more consistent as well, and less unsteady at times (leading to the described above), hence it maybe being just some stage between a not utterly established routine  and an established routine.

It makes me love and hate it though, and I really want to get over the hate thing, which seems to occur when I can't "hold" the practice during the day to such a degree that it's strongly noticeable (before/after having/loosing focus/peace of mind). This is amplified by the fact that I'm sometimes akward, most likely in social situations, and me being in a focused peaceful mind of state changes that to the good, hence loosing stableness of mind from one moment to another kicks in harshly sometimes, because it will translate to speech and action eventually. It takes away ease, sometimes charme, and coolness of being often. And even despite it, say I'm alone enjoying a cup of tea, loosing peace makes even the act of drinking tea as uneasy as my mind is. Having got to known this makes me even more unease when lposing ease (refering to focused calm mind that is usually attained by practice). In Vipassana terms simply put "when I loose attentiveness and equanimity, even the most best things will suck, and with it, even mundane things will be most rich and profound." and this translates to any experience as described above and makes me hate and love the practice at times. How to get over the hate? By getting to past a certain level of "skill" in regards to practice and in regards to holding it at a consistent level throughout the day?

I have only my past experiences in regards to that question, but accounts from others would really help in regards to this in terms of validity, or whether I'm on a totally wrong approach here. But that's really been bothering me for some time now, especially when you can't blame external circumstances anymore for feeling off balance or grumpsy, but you lack the ability to get back in balance during daily activity right away and kind of get too involved.



Thanks, Dominic
to be or not to be - one hardly notices the subtlety

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Disliking for meditation created by meditation
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2016, 01:53:55 AM »
So, basically you hate the medicine because it allows you to see your sickness?

Keep taking the medicine: it will seep into your daily life such that the sickness diminishes.

It's not rocket science, just takes continued self discipline.

Kindly,

M
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Attachless

  • Member
  • Write something about yourself here
    • Vipassana
Re: Disliking for meditation created by meditation
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2016, 03:07:14 AM »
So, basically you hate the medicine because it allows you to see your sickness?


Not exactly, but because seeing the sickness can be hurtful itself. I guess denial of suffering is a means for escaping suffering, to some degree. At  least that`s what I seen in many people, not sure if it does actually reduce it, but highlighting it does seem to increase it, just by admitting /seeing it.

Thanks for your words, I will trust the medicine doing it`s work then. :o) It kind of makes me feel like being dependent on it though, which isn`t a bad thing with continued self discipline I guess, but with lack thereof.
to be or not to be - one hardly notices the subtlety

Dharmic Tui

  • Member
  • Something
    • Some Theravada, some secular
Re: Disliking for meditation created by meditation
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2016, 07:07:51 AM »
I can relate to this well. Some of my observations:

- ignorance isn't really bliss. You may now have the anguish of contrast, but conversely you should be suffering less in your general existence. In my experience, I have less conflict (either internally or externally) with outside forces, be it people or situations.
- don't beat yourself up for falling back into old habits, it takes a long time to undo a mind
- As Matthew says, maintain your practice. It is really easy to believe the story you've told yourself in your opening post, I like to think of it as the ego grasping at straws
- Not to make you paranoid, but I think this is a one way trip. You can't unseen what has been seen. Abandon a reversion to your "old" self.
- It might sound a bit hokey, but you could also look into how your living, and seeing where you could make more improvements. Exercise more, clean your dwelling of clutter, eat right, learn some new skill, etc. Don't beat yourself up about this, make small changes and like your practice don't worry if you fail from time to time. Try to be a bit less selfish every day.

Attachless

  • Member
  • Write something about yourself here
    • Vipassana
Re: Disliking for meditation created by meditation
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2016, 08:01:44 AM »
I can relate to this well. Some of my observations:

- ignorance isn't really bliss. You may now have the anguish of contrast, but conversely you should be suffering less in your general existence. In my experience, I have less conflict (either internally or externally) with outside forces, be it people or situations.
- don't beat yourself up for falling back into old habits, it takes a long time to undo a mind
- As Matthew says, maintain your practice. It is really easy to believe the story you've told yourself in your opening post, I like to think of it as the ego grasping at straws
- Not to make you paranoid, but I think this is a one way trip. You can't unseen what has been seen. Abandon a reversion to your "old" self.
- It might sound a bit hokey, but you could also look into how your living, and seeing where you could make more improvements. Exercise more, clean your dwelling of clutter, eat right, learn some new skill, etc. Don't beat yourself up about this, make small changes and like your practice don't worry if you fail from time to time. Try to be a bit less selfish every day.

Thanks much for the perspectives, they are really helpful. But ignorance is comfortable, and a common human trait is lazyness! It is not bliss though, you`re right on that :angel:

I think "beating myself up" is also a habit to be undone. A tricky one I have to admit, especially when "not beating myself up" is closely linked to the condition of "not failing".

And this being a one way trip boosts the feeling of dependence on practicing, I may look into my disliking of dependence here though, it does me more harm than good at times. Feels more like an excuse actually.

Doesn`t sound hokey at all (maybe it does! :-P) - improving myself is steadily on the list.

Thanks for the advices! Taken off some work of introspection from me. Thanks Sangha.

Ps: Maybe it can be answered here and I don`t have to create a separate topic, but a question`s been on my mind regarding suffering, sadness and whatever emotions and sorrow one could suffer under: i know buddha started out sad - his awareness of suffering is what put him on his own path--but did he eventually come to transcend this sadness, or did he just learn to understand the need for sorrow in life - did he experience sadness without attachment, or did his non-attachment destroy sadness?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 08:06:08 AM by Attachless »
to be or not to be - one hardly notices the subtlety

Dharmic Tui

  • Member
  • Something
    • Some Theravada, some secular
Re: Disliking for meditation created by meditation
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2016, 08:09:36 AM »
You're more than welcome.

With the laziness side of things, here's how I see it. Lazy is autopilot, lazy is reactionary. Lazy has you fast forwarding through life, never really here. Being actively here, being not lazy, can be very fulfilling, no matter how mediocre.

You can pull your conscious practice of meditation into your daily life, gradually over time. Is this practice or is this real life? It is actually both, and it is only our egos making the distinction.

Attachless

  • Member
  • Write something about yourself here
    • Vipassana
Re: Disliking for meditation created by meditation
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2016, 12:31:46 PM »
You're more than welcome.

With the laziness side of things, here's how I see it. Lazy is autopilot, lazy is reactionary. Lazy has you fast forwarding through life, never really here. Being actively here, being not lazy, can be very fulfilling, no matter how mediocre.

You can pull your conscious practice of meditation into your daily life, gradually over time. Is this practice or is this real life? It is actually both, and it is only our egos making the distinction.

Thanks for your words! :-)
to be or not to be - one hardly notices the subtlety

Alex

  • Member
Re: Disliking for meditation created by meditation
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2016, 06:32:06 PM »
So, basically you hate the medicine because it allows you to see your sickness?


Not exactly, but because seeing the sickness can be hurtful itself. I guess denial of suffering is a means for escaping suffering, to some degree. At  least that`s what I seen in many people, not sure if it does actually reduce it, but highlighting it does seem to increase it, just by admitting /seeing it.

Thanks for your words, I will trust the medicine doing it`s work then. :o) It kind of makes me feel like being dependent on it though, which isn`t a bad thing with continued self discipline I guess, but with lack thereof.

Denial costs a lot of energy and what is denied is not deprived of the power to affect you(r experience, communication, relationships,...).

Highlighting, admitting, seeing... I'm not entirely sure what you mean exactly by these words, but in my experience, simply seeing is liberating.
It is reacting to the seeing with judging, criticizing, clinging/aversion, story-telling, etc. that increases and prolongs the suffering.

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Disliking for meditation created by meditation
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2016, 10:57:37 PM »
Denial costs a lot of energy and what is denied is not deprived of the power to affect you(r experience, communication, relationships,...).

Highlighting, admitting, seeing... I'm not entirely sure what you mean exactly by these words, but in my experience, simply seeing is liberating.
It is reacting to the seeing with judging, criticizing, clinging/aversion, story-telling, etc. that increases and prolongs the suffering.


Seeing is liberating. Yes, seeing the sickness hurts yet it's the only way to cure it. Ignoring it only prolongs it.
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Frightful

  • Member
  • Write something about yourself here
    • mindfulness
Re: Disliking for meditation created by meditation
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2016, 01:44:08 AM »
@Attachless: "....whether suffering is that bad if one is not really aware of it and how to deal with the practice increasing awareness of suffering and hence seemingly increasing suffering itself (instead of eliminating the roots of it)"

I equate suffering that you are not aware of with a piece of shrapnel that is causing you to compensate with the way you walk.  You might claim that with a certain gait you are not really aware of the shrapnel, but neither are you allowing yourself your full range of motion.  A key point here is that suffering that you become aware of and stay present with over a period of time will lose its negative effect;  suffering that remains suppressed is likely to continue to bother you in myriad unpredictable ways.

With regard to "losing the calm" during the work day, this is where it may help to equate those periods with the "scattered mind" that occurs during a meditation.  I employ something I call S.T.O.P.:  *S*ee (develop awareness) that you are spiraling into internal chaos, *T*ransfer your awareness to the present and to your breathing, *O*bserve in a more detached way the external and internal situation that brought you to the chaos, and *P*ractice this cycle increasingly as additional situations occur.  In some regards this cycle is similar to what happens during meditation to bring yourself back to the breathing and the present.  Maybe something of use here?

Attachless

  • Member
  • Write something about yourself here
    • Vipassana
Re: Disliking for meditation created by meditation
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2016, 01:39:13 PM »
I will disassociate my lack of direction/purpose currently prevailing in my life with my meditation practice, and see meditation as a tool to recognize this as it is, and handle this area separately, not giving fault to "recognizing it". Am only fooling myself.

S.T.O.P. has turned out to be helpful so far, I will not S.T.O.P using it for the moment :-P, until the very necessity of verbalizing S.T.O.P. initially is not needed anymore. It`s a good anchor, Thanks for the tip. :-)
to be or not to be - one hardly notices the subtlety

Jen

  • Member
  • Walking the path, one small step at a time
    • Vipassana a la Goenka
Re: Disliking for meditation created by meditation
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2016, 02:47:10 PM »
I can definitely relate to this, and just went through something similar, where I felt so much purity after my second 10-day Goenka course, and I thought I was in for a long steady ascent upwards. Instead, slowly over the course of the next 6 months re-introduced impurities (intoxicants, negative thinking patterns, etc) and was not practicing regularly enough. I felt like I looked down and just realized for the first time that this self of "mine" was a big pile of junk, standing on an even bigger pile of junk that was the world. It sounds dramatic, and I guess it was for me. I then started to crave practice, and felt like it was my new drug, my new addiction. I was over-critical of myself and would beat myself up when my mind would wander, when I had thoughts I disapproved of, or when I had a beer. My practice became yet a new arena in which to whip myself when I didn't achieve whatever goal I set for myself. I sunk into a depression that I only recently came out of, and I'm finding that with the gentleness I have learned and the space I have created, I am seeing the twinkle and the gleam on the pile of junk again. It's not looking so terrible anymore. It is what it is.

The other posters have already given some really great advice and insight, and mine is basically the same. The only way out is through. You are seeing the pile of junk and the only way to make that bearable is to develop just a little more equanimity, a little more peace. Don't identify with what you are experiencing. Don't get attached to any state you experience along the way. The way forward is to continue to practice. It seems to be the nature of the path to be challenging, to lead us to the areas where we most need to grow. It's hard work, but for me at least, there is no going back.

Thanks for your post; it's somehow comforting to hear the similarity of struggles.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 03:09:50 PM by Jen »
As an archer aims an arrow, as a carpenter carves wood, the wise shape their lives.

Vivek

  • Moderator
  • Staff
    • Advaita & U Ba Khin's tradition
Re: Disliking for meditation created by meditation
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2016, 05:49:28 AM »
Quote
I employ something I call S.T.O.P.:  *S*ee (develop awareness) that you are spiraling into internal chaos, *T*ransfer your awareness to the present and to your breathing, *O*bserve in a more detached way the external and internal situation that brought you to the chaos, and *P*ractice this cycle increasingly as additional situations occur.  In some regards this cycle is similar to what happens during meditation to bring yourself back to the breathing and the present.  Maybe something of use here?
That is quite brilliant how you shortened the process into a meaningful acronym. Thanks for sharing.
Let's go beyond this illusion, shall we?

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
4 Replies
4161 Views
Last post May 31, 2020, 11:46:56 AM
by stillpointdancer
6 Replies
2768 Views
Last post September 14, 2009, 10:05:42 AM
by Matthew
2 Replies
1709 Views
Last post July 28, 2010, 12:50:04 PM
by Vivek
3 Replies
1834 Views
Last post January 22, 2011, 06:13:05 PM
by Quardamon
4 Replies
5982 Views
Last post January 01, 2020, 12:38:17 PM
by stillpointdancer
21 Replies
5092 Views
Last post February 21, 2011, 03:49:34 PM
by Matthew
6 Replies
2283 Views
Last post June 26, 2014, 10:00:26 PM
by KingMe