Author Topic: law of impermanence (anicca)  (Read 4881 times)

Marc60

law of impermanence (anicca)
« on: December 08, 2015, 03:54:39 PM »
I was or I am still wondering how this law can lead us to wisdom. For me it´s a bromide. Ofcourse everything is changing after a while. No need to pratice Vipassana to know that. It´s only a question of time. some things are changing very quick and some very slow. If you caught a cold you probably will get rid of it in a few days. If you have cancer will also disappear....when you are dead (sorry, sometimes I am a little sarcastic).
Did I misunderstood something about this teaching?

Dharmic Tui

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Re: law of impermanence (anicca)
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2015, 05:00:40 PM »
Impermanence may not be self evident to everyone, so it's useful to convey that the objects driving our aversion or clinging can not last, at best we can be with them while we are present with them.

There's also deeper aspects to it one might need to gleam specifically in relation to the self. We tend to view ourselves as a fixed entity, have ideas of a perfect self, and when we're acting improperly we like to say its out of character. But who you are now is not the same as the you of a decade ago, etc etc. Realising this can go some way into destroying the visage of the distinct ego.

p340

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Re: law of impermanence (anicca)
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2015, 07:42:48 PM »
I second that. It can free you immensely. For example, when you are in a bad situation and experience pain. The sentence "everything that arises, will also pass away" comes to your mind. The deeper the understanding and accepting this sentence is, the lesser the pain. Or when you learn that pleasure like eating chocolate will only last a brief moment and then lets you suffer, you get freed of your desires. These examples are profane, but maybe help a little?

I really think it is about the depth of understanding this law of the universe. If you understood it fully, you may be enlightened :)

There is a talk i enjoyed a lot by joseph goldstein "liberation through non-clinging". He is touching that matter! It's on youtube ;)

This too shall pass!

Matthew

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Re: law of impermanence (anicca)
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2015, 09:26:04 PM »
...
Did I misunderstood something about this teaching?

There is no "you" to misunderstand. That is the fundamental teaching. Even this "you" is a chimera, an impermanent imposter of permanence. "You" cling to this sense of self as the human mind has a highly conditioned storytelling faculty essential to survival that goes way back in history ... yet it is just a story, an ever changing reality with a veil of permanence floated on top .. the "conscious" mind which springs from the boiling, bubbling cauldron of the "unconscious" as a fait-au complit: you are you ... only you are not ...
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Marc60

Re: law of impermanence (anicca)
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2015, 12:05:06 AM »
Quote
For example, when you are in a bad situation and experience pain. The sentence "everything that arises, will also pass away" comes to your mind. The deeper the understanding and accepting this sentence is, the lesser the pain

That is precisely what I mean. When I was sitting during my first meditation retreat I had a lot of pain (legs and back).  I could tell myself as often as I wanted: this is impermanent.  I tried to accept the pain. But it didn´t disappear. It was worse. It relieved only when I quitted for example the crossed-leg position. For me in this situation were no law of impermanence.

Tobin

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Re: law of impermanence (anicca)
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2015, 12:40:20 AM »
Quote
For example, when you are in a bad situation and experience pain. The sentence "everything that arises, will also pass away" comes to your mind. The deeper the understanding and accepting this sentence is, the lesser the pain

That is precisely what I mean. When I was sitting during my first meditation retreat I had a lot of pain (legs and back).  I could tell myself as often as I wanted: this is impermanent.  I tried to accept the pain. But it didn´t disappear. It was worse. It relieved only when I quitted for example the crossed-leg position. For me in this situation were no law of impermanence.

But I imagine at the moment you are reading this you no longer have the same pain. Therefore, it is impermanent. In fact, every moment of pain is new pain, although it might seem part of or connected to the initial pain.

There is no promise that by acknowledging the pain it will lessen. But easing yourself into it is much less uncomfortable than pushing it away. This is the second arrow, the suffering of suffering. As you slowly change your relationship to pain, you may even come to enjoy parts of the subtle sensations that make it up. I've found this to be true with my migraines, although it took a lot of concentration and careful attention.

In any case, if you're dying on the cushion to the point where you think you might be causing permanent bodily damage, then of course make any changes necessary for your health. There was certainly impermanence in your situation, as there is in all situations. Maybe you just didn't know what to look for.

Blessings. :)
Regards,
Tobin

Middleway

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Re: law of impermanence (anicca)
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2015, 03:44:15 AM »
Anicca makes life possible. Without anicca there would not have been a big bang and subsequent evolving of the universe to life on earth.
Take everything I say with a grain of salt.

Matthew

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Re: law of impermanence (anicca)
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2015, 08:26:26 PM »
Quote
For example, when you are in a bad situation and experience pain. The sentence "everything that arises, will also pass away" comes to your mind. The deeper the understanding and accepting this sentence is, the lesser the pain

That is precisely what I mean. When I was sitting during my first meditation retreat I had a lot of pain (legs and back).  I could tell myself as often as I wanted: this is impermanent.  I tried to accept the pain. But it didn´t disappear. It was worse. It relieved only when I quitted for example the crossed-leg position. For me in this situation were no law of impermanence.

It stopped, so was clearly impermanent (OK you had to move your legs).

Did you try to accept the pain or was the attempt at equanimity an attempt to reduce the pain through the hope acceptance would diminish? This hope is full of clinging and aversion - it would definitely make things worse.
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Marc60

Re: law of impermanence (anicca)
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2016, 01:03:09 AM »
Next wednesday I will give the law of impermanence a second chance. Let´s see how it will behave this time  ;)

TheJourney

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Re: law of impermanence (anicca)
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2016, 10:55:02 PM »
Consciously, you understand anicca but your subconscious mind doesn't know anicca so it keeps craving for sensual realm, becoming, and for permanent self.

The fact that you have train of thoughts and unconscious moment it speaks loudly that your subconscious mind doesn't see anicca; otherwise, you will have a silent mind naturally all the time.

This is why anicca is not an intellectual wisdom but experiential wisdom for the subconscious mind to know and discover.

Marc60

Re: law of impermanence (anicca)
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2016, 12:38:13 AM »
Thanks. I think You´re right. I have maybe  never really experienced anicca during Vipassana. Although feeling sensations on one part of the body and then a few seconds later not having them anymore is maybe anicca. But until now those sensations were only limited to some pulsing or tickling sensations. I absolutely cannot associate them to any defilements.
The thing I wanted to say also is about the problem with the pain. I don´t know if this really has something to do with or anicca or rather the state of mind your in. I guess it´s rather the second option.

and....Is Anicca not only the result of Kharma?

TheJourney

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Re: law of impermanence (anicca)
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2016, 02:58:49 PM »
Anicca is nature itself. Conditions arise for snowing, and there is snow. Conditions change and lead to the cessation of snow. Anicca has been in your life forever.

You have train of thoughts all your life.

Do an experiment on yourself. Sit and relax for 10 minutes. Don't think and don't move. What happens? A thought will arise despite of your intention to not have thought. When it has arisen, you become aware of it. Was that thought because of your thinking? No. Your intention was to not think. Your brain is nature. Nature created that thought. It had arisen and then ceased.

You mentally reacted to that thought with more thoughts. Eventually, that whole train of thoughts die. Later, this pattern repeats again with different content. This is anicca. You experience it all day long. Your mind is nonstop with sporadic arising and cessation of thoughts. When you become aware of it, you notice anicca is always happening.

Before, you were lost in the thoughts. You were in the thoughts. You thought that storm of thoughts was because of you. Your existence. You are the thinker. Now, in retrospect, you see that you are not the thinker. The vortex of thoughts were your mental reaction to naturally arising thoughts.

Sit through the 10 minutes and now you notice how you are not in control and don't own your mind. The mind doesn't ask you for permission to pop out a thought. You have no control over the mental reaction, and easily yield to it.

Also, notice how when you chooses to not think, there is arising sensations that is kind of uncomfortable. Hence, you latch onto an arising thought and begin your train of thought. That uncomfortable sensation disappear. That sensation is also why you mentally react.

There is dukhha (unsatisfactory) even for 10 minutes. Your mind doesn't like it. Your mind needs to be satisfied. It finds thoughts to entertain.

There is no-self (anatta). The train of thoughts are quite empty. There is no substance. They were just mental activity. They did not change any reality at that moment. They were just thoughts. They weren't thoughts you want it to happen. It came up on its own.

There is impermanence (anicca). Your mind is just a stream of mental activity like water in river. They arise and cease, like watching waves in the ocean.

In Insight Meditation, you observe that body and mind are doing their thing without your intention. You don't control any aspect of it. They are doing their things without your permission. You see anicca, dukhha, and anatta. Once your subconscious sees all this, you learn to stop taking your thoughts personally. You start reducing your mental reaction to thoughts. You realize all that mental activity is just one big waste of time because it is all impermanent, and is of fleeting satisfaction.

greenfly

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Re: law of impermanence (anicca)
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2016, 04:49:27 PM »
TheJourney....   
Thank You....... I needed to read or hear this.....thanks.....

Marc60

Re: law of impermanence (anicca)
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2016, 12:29:09 AM »
this was a good post journey, thanks

TheJourney

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Re: law of impermanence (anicca)
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2016, 01:47:00 AM »
Your welcome. I once had developed depression briefly in 2014, but mindfulness saved me. I learned that thoughts are not me. That was the first phase. Thoughts are impersonal mental process. Even when I had train of thoughts, I just let them flow through me without any personal attachment.

At the same time, I practiced watching my thoughts and mentally labeling them and watch the thoughts but it stops whenever I intentionally try to watch the train of thoughts.

I had 3 brief experiences of pure awareness, sooth brain sensation, and sudden vibrant sensations of joy. It lasted about 15 to 20 seconds because my ego started wondering how long it will last. These experiences happened within 2 minutes of no thoughts in the mind.

These experiences are what keeps me faithful and determined on the path of enlightenment. It is true enlightened minds do not show up on MRI. I will post that article tomorrow under the resource forum.

 

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