Author Topic: What made you go vegan? Why haven't you gone vegan yet?  (Read 16037 times)

Tobin

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Re: What made you go vegan? Why haven't you gone vegan yet?
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2015, 06:25:42 AM »
It's different when it comes to animals for many people because they don't project the same value on animals as they do other humans. To some degree, every individuals morality is impacted upon by ones proximity to other beings.

If you had a situation where your action killed either your mother (or some other close person) or a goldfish, which one would you save? Most people are going to pick the person close to them. At some level you're going to make these value judgements, I'm not sure whether I'd call them delusional.

The problem I find with your reasoning D.T. is that the same could be said for whites that didn't project the same values on blacks. Or men on women. This is the same cycle being repeated.

Edit: I feel like you generally give these ultimatums. The only ultimatum I see in this situation is comfort vs ethics.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 07:48:18 AM by Tobin »
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Tobin

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Re: What made you go vegan? Why haven't you gone vegan yet?
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2015, 06:52:27 AM »
Hello Tobin. Thank you very much for the response.

You've been a vegan for 5 months. From my perspective, that's kicking the tires and going for a test drive. I thank you for making the effort to explore this lifestyle.

I accept and respect other people's choices because in the unfolding of my life, I've made the same choices. Tho for nearly a half a century, I've enjoyed a diet that's opposite of the masses of people who are into SAD (the Standard American Diet), still, I know that I'm equal to one and all, and I feel that we are spiritually the same. Plus, I understand that I can only control what I do, and what I eat ... and I have no interest in controlling what other people do, eat, say, think, feel, imagine or believe. Hence, my path is simply to set an example ... and I, personally, allow everyone to evolve in their own time and space.

Since you truly believe that eating meat is on par with racism, rape, enslavement and murder ... then I assume that you see your loved ones -- perhaps your mother, father, sisters, brothers, partners, girlfriends, boyfriends who have always consumed meat -- as serial killers who are directly responsible for thousands of murders. That point of view must be a frightening place to be ... knowing that you've been surrounded by mass murders for your entire life. But then again, if you ate meat for 99% of your lifetime, and have only recently taken a few months off from your killing spree, then you probably consider yourself to be one too.

And so as a vegan, what are your thoughts about killing thousands and thousands of living plants to eat? We vegans do it by cutting them away from their homes in the soil, chopping them to pieces, shredding them in machines, then we burn, boil, steam or bake them. We also eat many plants when they are still alive. This is the most horrible death of all, as you can imagine being crushed and torn apart by sharp teeth, slowly dissolved by stomach acids, then put through a small intestine only to have peristaltic action squeeze the nutritive juices out of your pulverized body. And of course we vegans take the living offspring of plants -- millions and millions of grains -- and we grind them into flour, then toss them into ovens.

All the things mentioned above are worthy of our ongoing contemplation, as vegans.

I'm not confident that I could get folks to change, if I referred to them as rapists, slave owners and life-long serial murderers. In fact, I think that will make many them go out and eat tons more meat, and enjoy the heck out of it, too!

However, I'm very confident that I would have much better chances to catalyze positive changes in friends and family, if I become an example of exquisite health, never got sick, always had abundant energy, had an authentic positive attitude, could handle the stresses of daily life with intuitive ease, was street smart, relaxed, poised, laughed frequently, had a light-heart ... and loved them unconditionally. When I meet people like that ... I'm very open to having their energies, philosophies and lifestyles rub off onto me.

Yes, I agree with a lot of things in your reply. I was an overnight vegan, before living in what I would consider a slumber. I was unaware of my impact, for various reasons, but once I was supplied with the information I felt I had an ethical obligation to change my behavior. This has opened my eyes to a lot of other areas in my life (some even D.T. has made me aware of) that are causing harm and every day I am working to reduce that harm. I'm not naive enough to believe that I can completely reduce my negative impact, but in the areas where I have a choice - I will. Turning a blind eye is not an option for me. THIS is what frustrates me the most about others. The excuses, the lies, the deep denial so that we don't have to sacrifice our comfort. Yes there are people who MAY not be able to change their diets for health reasons, but the majority are just unwilling. When has this ever been an acceptable excuse for doing something ethically wrong?

This change in my life, has on some levels changed my relationship with others and it's caused a lot of anger and stress. Do I regret my decision? Most certainly not. I feel good about my choices, great even. Most of the time, watching others continue to eat animal products doesn't bother me. Their attitude and denial about their habits, does.

I don't consider anyone that eats meat a bad person. I see them like I was before, unaware and uneducated. That is NOT an excuse, once enlightened, to continue with the same harmful patterns of behavior. Anything beyond that is willful ignorance.

As far as your argument about plants, sure, I can't sit here and ignore further investigation when I'm pushing others to see my point of view. I find the plant argument a little shaky. Plants don't have nervous systems and they don't scream out in pain when butchered. In fact, most of my meals now look 10 times more delicious than before when sided with a chunk of chicken flesh. You also mentioned your health has improved dramatically since starting a plant based diet; same here. This, TO ME, is the lesser of two evils. If we one day found a way of sustaining ourselves without harming any living beings, I would be on board in a heart beat.

I'm not advocating going around condemning people for their actions. I'm fully aware this doesn't work to promote change. This thread is living proof of that. I am still learning. I also don't hate murderers, rapists, or child molesters. I dislike the things they do, but there are a million reasons why someone might commit these acts. It's not for me to judge, but I will also not stand by and do nothing. Had this been the attitude while whites had slaves, we would probably still be committing these horrible atrocities.

Thanks for your reply. Writing in response helps me to think through things a little more clearly.

I hope I'm staying level enough and not offending anyone. If I am, feel free to let me know.
Regards,
Tobin

Dharmic Tui

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Re: What made you go vegan? Why haven't you gone vegan yet?
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2015, 07:56:53 AM »
The problem I find with your reasoning D.T. is that the same could be said for whites that didn't project the same values on blacks. Or men on women. This is the same cycle being repeated.
  Yeah, so you're doing what you did earlier. Because of your beliefs, you're allocating the same values on some quite different positions.

Tobin

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Re: What made you go vegan? Why haven't you gone vegan yet?
« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2015, 08:01:22 AM »
The problem I find with your reasoning D.T. is that the same could be said for whites that didn't project the same values on blacks. Or men on women. This is the same cycle being repeated.
  Yeah, so you're doing what you did earlier. Because of your beliefs, you're allocating the same values on some quite different positions.

Sure, because if I didn't, I wouldn't be consistent. I would be hypocritical.
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Tobin

Dharmic Tui

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Re: What made you go vegan? Why haven't you gone vegan yet?
« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2015, 08:12:58 AM »
Things are rarely consistent.

Tobin

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Re: What made you go vegan? Why haven't you gone vegan yet?
« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2015, 08:16:15 AM »
Things are rarely consistent.

Just because not everything is within our control doesn't mean others aren't. All I'm hearing are excuses. If animals mean less to you than humans, fine.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 08:19:35 AM by Tobin »
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Tobin

Dharmic Tui

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Re: What made you go vegan? Why haven't you gone vegan yet?
« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2015, 08:43:37 AM »
You're assuming thats what it's about for me. I could value animals higher than humans, or the same. There's a reason I don't eat other people, and it's not because they mean more to me than a Chicken.

Tobin

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Re: What made you go vegan? Why haven't you gone vegan yet?
« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2015, 08:48:42 AM »
You're assuming thats what it's about for me. I could value animals higher than humans, or the same. There's a reason I don't eat other people, and it's not because they mean more to me than a Chicken.

Instead of making me jump through hoops to understand exactly what you mean, why don't you just tell me? What does this have to do with eating people? We're talking about the rights of animals. Rights that are already afforded to human beings.
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Tobin

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Re: What made you go vegan? Why haven't you gone vegan yet?
« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2015, 09:11:43 AM »
You talking about equal rights doesn't mean it's a question about rights for me. I won't let a hedgehog drive, and it's got little to do with rights.

Tobin

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Re: What made you go vegan? Why haven't you gone vegan yet?
« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2015, 09:19:52 AM »
You talking about equal rights doesn't mean it's a question about rights for me. I won't let a hedgehog drive, and it's got little to do with rights.

Alright D.T., whatever you say.
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Tobin

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Re: What made you go vegan? Why haven't you gone vegan yet?
« Reply #60 on: December 20, 2015, 10:21:15 AM »
Thanks for your reply. Writing in response helps me to think through things a little more clearly.

Please know that for 4-1/2 decades, I've been very awake to the incredible suffering that's continually generated by industrial animal production -- long before the info was widely known, talked about, written about, recorded on videos, and reported world-wide through news and social media, as it is today. That's why I became a vegetarian in 1970. I've been "chopping wood and carrying water" in the promotion of the vegetarian-vegan diet since then, through the examples set by my lifestyle.

In my opinion, the most profound shift by the human masses to a plant-based diet will be catalyzed when verified scientific data is widely accepted, that reveals industrial animal agriculture to be the biggest cause of global ecological destruction and climate change.

The documentary below is one of the best sources for the data, and it's presented in a way that's easy to assimilate. You don't have to be a scientist to understand the problems and the answers:

VIDEO: Cowspiracy, 1 hour and 30 minutes

For instance, here are some of the data points revealed in the movie, all footnoted with scientific research from multiple sources on the Cowspiracy website:
  • Animal agriculture is responsible for 18 percent of greenhouse gas emissions, which is more than the combined exhaust from the entire global transportation sector -- which includes all cars, trucks, buses, trains and airplanes on the planet.
  • Industrial animal agriculture is the leading cause of species extinction, ocean dead zones, water pollution, and habitat destruction.
  • Livestock production generates 51% of global greenhouse gas emissions.
  • 2500 gallons of water are needed to produce 1 pound of industrial ag beef.
  • 1000 gallons of water are needed to produce 1 gallon of industrial ag milk.
  • 5% of water consumed in the US is by private homes. 55% of water consumed in the US is for industrial animal agriculture.
  • Livestock or livestock feed occupies 1/3 of the earth’s ice-free land.
  • Industrial livestock operations on land have created more than 500 nitrogen flooded dead zones around the world in our oceans.
  • Nearly half of the contiguous US is devoted to industrial animal agriculture.
  • 3/4 of the world’s fisheries are exploited or depleted.
  • For every 1 pound of fish caught, up to 5 pounds of unintended marine species are caught, hurt or killed, and then discarded.
  • Animal agriculture is responsible for up to 91% of Amazon destruction.
  • 35 pounds of topsoil are lost in the production of one pound of grain-fed industrial ag beef.
  • 60,000 miles of streams in the US have fisheries impaired by feedlot pollution.
  • 16 pounds of grain and soy (which could be eaten directly by humans) are needed to produce one pound of grain-fed beef.
  • 14% of all cattle are fed back to cattle as part of protein-fortified feed.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 10:30:06 AM by Highwhistler »

Tobin

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Re: What made you go vegan? Why haven't you gone vegan yet?
« Reply #61 on: December 20, 2015, 10:53:02 AM »
I really enjoyed that documentary. I don't feel the main guy in it relates well with the groups he's trying to convince, but the facts are difficult to refute.

Unfortunately, I'm fairly convinced that by the time the masses have converted (although slim chance of that), it will be too late. Our environment is already on the verge of being irremediable (yes I googled that word ;) ). I'm past believing that we have a chance of saving our world. All I can hope for is less death and pain for all living creatures.

Another fantastic but extremely difficult to watch documentary is "Earthlings".
Regards,
Tobin

Highwhistler

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Re: What made you go vegan? Why haven't you gone vegan yet?
« Reply #62 on: December 20, 2015, 12:07:50 PM »
Unfortunately, I'm fairly convinced that by the time the masses have converted (although slim chance of that), it will be too late. Our environment is already on the verge of being irremediable (yes I googled that word ;) ).

I with you on that. I think it's too late. The methane being released from melting permafrost in the arctic will probably be unstoppable.

Oh well. Maybe the current human experiment on planet Earth, in this space and time, did not work. I imagine Creation will give human.2.0 a shot. Human.2.0 has to naturally respect and take care of its home planet, its living-breathing ecosystems, the animals, and one-another ... to be sustainable, to survive, and to eventually move out into the galaxy, and to begin exploring the stars ...

Dharmic Tui

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Re: What made you go vegan? Why haven't you gone vegan yet?
« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2015, 05:05:39 PM »
Alright D.T., whatever you say.
Whatever I say might be irrelevant, but this could also go for your perspective. You've mentioned my approach being likened to racism, and I can't help but note a level of irony in how youre choosing to group anyone who won't adopt your position in the same boat. Owning pets supports puppy farms, eating eggs condones battery hens and eating meat promotes the end of the earth, you can see no middle road despite there possibly being one. Instead you want to vilify and dismiss anyone who won't adhere to your emotional position.

Tobin

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Re: What made you go vegan? Why haven't you gone vegan yet?
« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2015, 10:42:42 PM »
Alright D.T., whatever you say.
Whatever I say might be irrelevant, but this could also go for your perspective. You've mentioned my approach being likened to racism, and I can't help but note a level of irony in how youre choosing to group anyone who won't adopt your position in the same boat. Owning pets supports puppy farms, eating eggs condones battery hens and eating meat promotes the end of the earth, you can see no middle road despite there possibly being one. Instead you want to vilify and dismiss anyone who won't adhere to your emotional position.

I'm not trying to dismiss you. I find you slightly irrational and unwilling to look deeper. You're not the villain in this situation, but your also not the hero. I can appreciate reducing harm, like you said you've done. But that is not the final resting place. Just like I would be happier with a little less racism, it's not where we should end.

You defend yourself with dictionary definitions and questionable analogies of hedgehogs driving vs the harm of living beings. I'm looking for some real substance. Or at least some kind of reasoning I can follow. Maybe I'm just not intelligent enough, or maybe we will just never agree. Either way, I don't feel like our conversation has had any real depth.
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Tobin

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Re: What made you go vegan? Why haven't you gone vegan yet?
« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2015, 10:51:29 PM »
...
I'm not trying to dismiss you. I find you slightly irrational and unwilling to look deeper. You're not the villain in this situation, but your also not the hero. ...... Either way, I don't feel like our conversation has had any real depth.

I'd encourage you both to peaceably find the real depth and, where there is confusion, work to resolve it. I suspect a deeper respect will be found alongside understanding each other's positions - whilst probably agreeing to differ.
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Tobin

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Re: What made you go vegan? Why haven't you gone vegan yet?
« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2015, 11:59:48 PM »
Had I approached this conversation less controversial y in the beginning, maybe it would have been more productive. We've both made our points and I don't feel I can contribute any better understand than I already have. I'm not looking to argue anymore.

I have taken a lot away from this topic so I don't feel it is a waste. I appreciate any movement in the "right" direction and I hold no I'll will for anyone here.
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Tobin

Dharmic Tui

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Re: What made you go vegan? Why haven't you gone vegan yet?
« Reply #67 on: December 21, 2015, 12:13:04 AM »
I'm not trying to dismiss you.
“Alright D.T., whatever you say.” Is inherently dismissive.
I find you slightly irrational and unwilling to look deeper.
I’m always willing to look very deep, but I’ve not been given much of substance to investigate. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with you wanting to adopt your position, but it sits more in the belief realm than the outcome of a considered line of reasoning, based on what you’ve said. If the issue is animal welfare, why does the answer have to only be Veganism?

It’s clearly obvious that you can consume animal products (or even animals) and avoid animal neglect and protracted suffering, in an environmentally friendly way. I’ve touched on that, if you want more elaboration I can. For your argument to hold water, you’ll have to convince me otherwise, in which instance please, go ahead.
You defend yourself with dictionary definitions and questionable analogies of hedgehogs driving vs the harm of living beings. I'm looking for some real substance.
So you get to liken animal rights with human rights, without substantiating it at all, yet you’ll accuse me of having no substance when I do the same? What rights should we be affording animals? And for what reasoning?

Tobin

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Re: What made you go vegan? Why haven't you gone vegan yet?
« Reply #68 on: December 21, 2015, 02:09:19 AM »
Thank you for your input. I will consider it.
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Tobin