How do you know reality?

[nobody to you]

Let's just say that Goenka's vipassana is  'the' path to enlightenment based on our own experiences. Goenka says to trust your experiences but this is in the context of his courses. Peoples minds can be manipulated when they are cut off from the outside world. I have done 21 x 10 day courses at one of his centres because it seemed to relieve me of my addiction. The truth is (to me) that it didn't work. If Goenka vipassana treats all people with equal dignity(that is silly because it doesn't) then why shouldn't everyone be freed from addictions after 14 years of serving at centres and meditating at them as well as meditating for 2 1/4 hours per day minimum? Goenka vipassana is a cult because it lays 'any' blame on the individual and not on itself. This is a cult formula. The cult always blames the missfit for not fitting in. The so called successful people join together and condemn the missfit because he/she is not one of them. I cannot separate the human and animal kingdoms on this basis. It is survival of the fittest or dumbest as far as I am concerned.  Long live Goenka and his followers up on a hill removed from the real world and trying to make us as he so wishes. I have seen that he has had some success. I cannot see his movement having far reaching affect because the movement is not sincere. It is just another organised religion full of arrogant, abrasive secretive people who play golf on weekends with their upper crust like. Is this what lord Bhudda preached? If so then Bhudda was as full of it as anyone who wanted to 'show the way'. If not then these centers are full of CRAP.

[Matthew]

Hi nobody,

Welcome to the forums.

Clearly you are very angered by the experiences you have had with Goenka's movement. Please understand this site is not related to Goenka's movement - it is dedicated to "Buddhist and Buddhist inspired Vipassana meditation practitioners".

Some of the site members follow Goenka - most of us do not. In fact I would propose a common thread running through many of the experiences people in this forum have had is the same kind of rejection of organised church-style Buddhism that you have experienced.

This forum is not a place to take out your anger and it is not a place to flame Goenka or his followers.

Intelligent discussion, mutual support, sharing of common experiences: These are the things that this forum is about. It does not help you become understood or reach understanding to suddenly descend on a forum and post multiple threads that seem to be quite filled with hate and anger. From this perspective I would certainly agree that Goenka's movement was not for you as the practice you followed does not seem to have removed these poisonous emotions but perhaps even made them stronger in you.

There is a real path to the true awakening the Buddha and others have experienced. It can be followed. This Sangha/community is a place where people from many backgrounds come together to try and help each other find the signposts and truths that will take us there.

Some people on the forum don't even believe in enlightenment, some believe in God, some are atheist, others agnostic.

We are a non-sectarian self-help society trying to find the grains of truth in the mountain of dirt that surrounds us. It is important that if you are going to give and get something meaningful from this community that you tone down the anger in your posts a little please.

This is not the place to vent your anger at Goenka, his movement or followers. Come here for truth and peace - not for fights.

I hope you stay and that through this forum you can find some help in finding your true connection with the Dhamma and the path.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew

[Jack]

While this may not stay with the text of either nobody's or Matthew's posts, the subject is an interesting one.  Indeed, how do we know reality?

Is not one of the principle goals of Vipassan to first clear the assumptions and hindrances of our minds so that we can see clearly?  But, how do we know when that occurs?  I suppose it is similar to the question sometimes asked about how will I know when I'm enlightened?  My answer (from the unenlightened being that I am) would be "if you have to ask, you're not there, yet.  Keep meditating and don't worry about it." 

In peace,
jack

[Matthew]

My answer (from the unenlightened being that I am) would be "if you have to ask, you're not there, yet.  Keep meditating and don't worry about it."

And a very good answer it is.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew

[anicca]

Goenka vipassana is a cult because it lays 'any' blame on the individual and not on itself. This is a cult formula. The cult always blames the missfit for not fitting in. The so called successful people join together and condemn the missfit because he/she is not one of them.

'Goenka' vipassana is a meditation technique. Although I am aware of people turning it into a cult-like religion (by worshipping Goenka, taking his word as gospel etc.) to me that is the fault of the individual concerned, not the technique. I am not aware of any blame or condemning of people in Goenka vipassana, in fact many of the people who I know through this technique are very tolerant of other people and their beliefs.

If Goenka vipassana treats all people with equal dignity(that is silly because it doesn't) then why shouldn't everyone be freed from addictions after 14 years of serving at centres and meditating at them as well as meditating for 2 1/4 hours per day minimum?

Not necessarily, if someone is only playing 'games of sensations' instead of trying to maintain equanimity towards sensations then it is likely one will only increase the power of the addiction. I have been practicing Goenka vipassana for a similar length of time as you and am very happy with the results - I used to be a heavy drinker and a heavy pot-smoker, I haven't had either in years now; I used to get very hot-headed and aggressive, people who have only known me for a few years find it unbelievable that I used to be like that. I, and many others I know, have experienced tremendous benefits through this technique. If this meditation technique doesn't suit you then find another one that does, but that doesn't mean you have to blow down and judge everyone who does practice this particular technique of meditation.

I cannot see his movement having far reaching affect because the movement is not sincere. It is just another organised religion full of arrogant, abrasive secretive people who play golf on weekends with their upper crust like. Is this what lord Bhudda preached? If so then Bhudda was as full of it as anyone who wanted to 'show the way'. If not then these centers are full of CRAP.

You obviously have a very different experience of the 'Goenka' movement than me. I know 5 Assistant Teachers that I count as personal friends- two are builders, one is a retired mill worker and the other two are in the public service. I don't consider any of them to be in the 'upper crust' of society, but they all seem like well-adjusted people making their way through life. I myself am a school teacher and although I do enjoy a bit of golf on the weekends (more usually every now and then after school) I pretty much always play with other school teacher friends of mine.

You obviously have a lot of anger towards this technique. Through this technique I have learned that anger doesn't come from outside of oneself (as I alluded to previously, I was a very angry person before encountering this technique), it always, 100% of the time comes from inside. I also have had a lot of experience with this technique but have no anger towards it. Think about that.

With metta.

[Matthew]

Anicca,

Thank you for this balanced opinion of your experiences.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew

[one.love]

With no offence intended to anyone involved in this conversation. It seems as nobody to you has some underlying short comings with religion as a whole not even within these practices. It seems almost unjust to place it all into one category, as every person in themselves has their own valued beliefs and practices. Its to easy to lump everything together into one negative pile, instead of sifting through to find the good out of everything even if we believe in it or not. There is positive energy all around us, its the want to identify it and learn from it that will benefit our spirits in the end.

[Matthew]

There is positive energy all around us, its the want to identify it and learn from it that will benefit our spirits in the end.

Well said.