Author Topic: Does anyone else feel naive?  (Read 6770 times)

VipassanaXYZ

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Does anyone else feel naive?
« on: September 04, 2014, 08:29:51 AM »

I feel I am naive and have more than a few instances where this has made me think about my attitude. I feel I am increasingly becoming simpler in my head. I feel everyone is nice, happy and trustworthy and have embarrassed myself and have even been in unsafe situations because of not thinking really. I also overpay, for example, I recently took a house on rent recently paying 30% extra over market rate.  Before signing the house rent agreement I told landlord he quoted high price and he asked me my salary and simple said oh! you can afford it ... I tried to dissuade three times from telling the exact amout how much I earn but he asked in many different ways and I took time to catch on and believe he was actually being too nosy and had no business to ask me this and many other personal questions. Many people at my work are very nice to me and understand me so I feel safe generally but am just asking if some others also feel the same and how they cope with this? Also, is it just a personal trait or something related to meditation? I know not lying in any circumstances has made me a very strong person and changed my life for the better in every way, may be meditators just appear naive on the surface but are actually the slow and steady ones who live more in accordance with natural principles

Dharmic Tui

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Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2014, 08:38:36 AM »
Over time meditators should sweat the small stuff less and less, rather than trying to make a point about something.

Personally though I will act in my best interest with anonymous commercial entities.

VipassanaXYZ

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Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2014, 09:46:19 AM »
Thanks!

Exactly what I do sometimes sweat the small stuff less - esp. emotional.

I liked the place, just 3 km from my office with view of lake on all three sides, can not complain even at the hiked price, much cheaper than other places in Bangalore. But I know others are paying even less there, there isnt even a road to the apartment and everything is very new.

Also, I was desperate to move out of the old house because of the cell phone tower radiation. The person who moved my luggage counted 5 towers from my terrace in close proximity :(  I already feel better after moving out!
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 10:40:28 AM by VipassanaXYZ »

Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2014, 12:38:48 PM »
I prefer to live in the world of actions than in the thoughts.

If I payed more rent then I wouldn't think much of it at all till next month. When the time comes for action I think of all possible solutions n take the best action and forget it all..

VipassanaXYZ

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Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2014, 01:00:23 PM »
Then what will you think next month? 8) 8)

Sylvia1982

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Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2014, 01:48:45 PM »
I have noticed this too and believe this has something to do with the practice. Now I don’t bother much about negotiation to certain extent. Is the agony of going through that agony really worth the reduction? I would rather have mental peace. Of course, every situation should be judged on its own merit.
 Does it make sense?

VipassanaXYZ

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Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2014, 03:05:04 PM »
It does actually make a lot of sense Sylvia.

I will mostly drop the deal than negotiate and most likely take a deal when both are happy.

I also dont like to exchange energies with people who negotiate just for the heck of it.

It makes me feel a little lower if I try to pull down prices someone has quoted;mostly feel better off paying extra and taking it on me than to pay less and not know what situation the other is in!

I anyway live very simply and dont have too much to spend on, and whatever little I do I try to make it ethical (vegetarian, organic products, dont use harsh chemicals and use vinegar and herbs to wash the house, my clothes and even my skin (herbs for skin, mostly no shampoo or soap!). I also try not to take planes and use trains, no personal vehicle I mostly walk or take public transport to not use petrol but that might change since my new house is a bit isolated and one young boy tried to assault me yesterday when  I was coming down a dark mus path with no lamp posts ...I think I trusted him a bit too much and spoke too warmly to a stranger, in fact that was the real reason why I posted this question. I feel bad now for thinking not to mix with the locals and thinking of buying a vehicle so I can whizz past the dark mud lanes where a lot of housekeeping staff of the IT factories stays :(

rob

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Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2014, 07:51:35 PM »
Hello poojavassa,

We look at others and judge. We compare our self with others in stead of appreciating the wonders around us. We must enjoy the things we have and think not about better or more optimal situations. So enjoy what you have, do not think so much about better scenarios. Of course protect yourself.

rob

bomega

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Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2014, 09:18:18 PM »
Oh Pooja...please be careful! I'm glad you are ok.

As for the safety decision of buying a vehicle. Think about your total situation. I once used to live in the ghetto, and while I felt safe in the immediate neighborhood of my house, I did not in other areas, at times even just a few blocks away. When I bought that house, I actually went into debt to have a washer/dryer installed, because the area around the laundromat near my house seemed very unsafe for reasons I couldn't quite define (the laundromat was about half a mile away from my house.) A couple years later, a neighbor of mine (a relatively young male, with some stature so he could "take care of himself") was assaulted in the parking lot of that laundromat (he was ended up being ok.)

Sometimes I overpay, and sometimes I underpay, but I try to think about what I want and how much I am willing to pay for it, and persist to find it, rather than what other people are doing. This strategy has generally made me happy. Once worked for me to where I once found a basement studio in a fashionable neighborhood that was very convenient to the metro and every amenity I wanted, and a bunch I even didn't care about, for more than 25% under market. Bragging about this deal I had was one of my favorite things to do at the time...not the most equanimous of me...I know. ;)

FWIW, your apartment looks awesome. I'm jealous. :)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2014, 11:15:53 PM by bomega »

JMatlack

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Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2014, 12:10:50 AM »
I have considered and usually have a fear that pops in my head before every meditation that tells me that it may not be beneficial to my goals in an industrial world. You have to remember the people that used these techniques of meditation were homeless and/or living a lifestyle very different from the ones we live these days. 

My suggestion to combat the naivety is to remember that you realized what that man was doing. You are aware where others are not. Your circumstances gave you no better choice but to accept the offer considering you wanted to get away from the cell phone towers. 

The meditation is working no doubt! you have recognized that sometimes you can be naïve.  This would have been the case with or without meditation but the fact that you are aware of it means you can work with it.  The meditation, or at least the ones I practice, are about  witnessing what already is, not on changing anything. 

I wish the best of luck to you! may you find the peace and comfort, security, and love in your new living place that already exists in your heart.

May you awaken and realize that naivety is just showing a lack of experience which meditation can provide the cure.

In the end we are all meant to live modest lives spent loving others.
"THE ALL (god) is MIND; the universe is mental" written in The Kybalion

Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2014, 12:04:13 PM »
Then what will you think next month? 8) 8)

I would be very happy if I don't have to think of anything

VipassanaXYZ

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Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2014, 10:15:02 AM »
I love your answer JMatlack

Thank you for sharing your experience and for your support Bomega.

I renegotiated the price with the landlord and will be signing a new agreement.
I am still a bit worried about safety because the builder interferes in the apartment building, lives on site and blackmails people by cutting off water supply, someone even reported him to the police and he is evicting that tenant and no one is saying anything!
I live alone but will be having a girl to work as my assistant for some time come stay with me soon!


JMatlack

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Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2014, 04:08:58 PM »
Way to go! I'm glad things have taken a turn in a positive direction.
"THE ALL (god) is MIND; the universe is mental" written in The Kybalion

VipassanaXYZ

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Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2014, 10:37:57 AM »
Ahh as you can see in the pic - the house is surrounded by a lake (on two sides). I was suspecting the land is encroached land and yesterday a neighbor confirmed it! The builder just made flats on a drying lake bed without permission and now fighting a case against the local administration. The system is corrupt and he might even win the case with influence; now that I know all this, it will not be right to stay on land that belong to the community, the birds and the fish.

Gotta (move out of house and) find a new place - for the ninth time in this last year and half!
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 10:40:10 AM by VipassanaXYZ »

Matthew

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Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2014, 02:48:34 PM »
...
Gotta (move out of house and) find a new place - for the ninth time in this last year and half!

I feel I am naive and have more than a few instances where this has made me think about my attitude. I feel I am increasingly becoming simpler in my head. I feel everyone is nice, happy and trustworthy and have embarrassed myself and have even been in unsafe situations because of not thinking really. I also overpay, for example, I recently took a house on rent recently paying 30% extra over market rate.  Before signing the house rent agreement I told landlord he quoted high price and he asked me my salary and simple said oh! you can afford it ...
....

It seems to me from the above OP that you are not very sure of yourself in negotiations. Your salary is none of the landlord's business! I think these are personal traits rather than related (caused) by meditation practice.  If you are "pushed into a corner" in a negotiation I suspect there is a level on which you feel you do not have permission to stand up for yourself, however:

I'm glad you found the strength and courage to renegotiate the deal - this shows you can do it. If you are now moving on again maybe it would be wise to take a little bit of time to try and choose the right place and negotiate a fair price - all this moving causes stress.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 02:51:43 PM by Matthew »
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

yossarian

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Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2014, 02:13:27 AM »
 I was definitely a big old pushover/naive prior to starting meditation, I suspect it's more of a conditioned trait than a fruit of the path. I even invented some ludicrous moral imperative about the virtues of "giving people the benefit of the doubt" to make myself feel better about being had :D.

After my retreat, I quickly began to discern my reflexive fear of confrontation that drove me to be so easily manipulated. Literally on the way home from my retreat I stopped at a gas station and a guy cut in front of me in line. I VERY uncharacteristically informed him (in a very friendly tone) that I'd been waiting before he arrived. Of course, that sort of thing is easier when you have ten days of calm meditation behind you.

I've since been working on being more aware of my reactions as well as being kind, understanding, yet assertive when justified.

From one pushover to another, great job renegotiating your contract. I know from experience that such things aren't easy and take a lot of courage and conviction.  ;D

9 times in a year?! Wow. I'm sorry to hear of your misfortune with the new place. However, You may have a hard time finding a dwelling that wasn't at some point built on land where animals used to live.   ;)
 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 02:33:39 AM by yossarian »

VipassanaXYZ

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Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2014, 06:42:19 AM »
Matthew, India can be a difficult place for young single women esp. without family/men to appear to be there - it is just very inconvenient.

But I agree I try to be extra nice sometimes because I am shit scared inside.
Fear so subtle/deep that I am not aware of it.

If I am aware of the deep set fears then I can be brave and renegotiate and take on the world etc.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 06:45:13 AM by VipassanaXYZ »

VipassanaXYZ

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Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2014, 07:06:03 AM »
Thanks Yoga.

 

I live in one of the most densely populated cities in the world - more than 4.3 million (my city has bigger population than entire populations some countries like Singapore, New Zealand, Lithuania!) Millions of people people fighting for resources in 741 kms sq. There is illegal construction, slums, open sewage, ten months advance rent for renting a house, atrocious cost of living compared to earning and almost no clean air/water.

It is not easy to push me over in a queue :) If I let someone do it, it is more from amusement than anything else but my living environment is far from easy and I dont always blame myself from having to move out of paying guests that got too cramped too soon, friends changing their minds after letting out their apartment and me losing my contracts and having to move and to keeping my resolve to take up yearly meditation retreats to upkeep my Pali studies and concentration.

it is all ok, I feel in the same breath, I spend some quiet time sitting in early morning sun for some time and meditating afterwards and heart knows a resting place in one hour sitting morning and evening done mostly without fail.

the land is clearly encroached from the reserved lake area, and if I follow basic precepts I shouldnt be staying here - it will be stealing; taking what is not rightfully mine and something that has not been given to me - even though there is no one to question and check on me. I do not feel I am going an extra mile here.

I gave wayy more information to landlord, I feel weak and vulnerable and then try to be extra nice.

Love for everyone here-thanks for talking to me.
It helped.
:)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 07:17:42 AM by VipassanaXYZ »

VipassanaXYZ

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Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2014, 07:47:32 AM »
I feel I am NOT naive.

(I didnt suspect the landlord, didnt lie about my salary, and respected the old fella - he is a father of two daughters and grandfather of new twin boys, I treated the stranger with love and respect and sympathised with him, his entire life savings are gone in the house - he too was cheated by the builder who sold off this illegal property to him. I spoke to him kindly and he renegotiated the agreement happily. I acknowledge he was "wrong" in letting out the illegal property.)

I sometimes wonder, but come back to my faith in the practise.
Sending love.
Will post pics of the new place here when I find one:P
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 08:08:08 AM by VipassanaXYZ »

bomega

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Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2014, 08:38:18 PM »
Pooja,

I don't think you are naive either. And it's cool to see you knowing where your center is and then working the problem even in the face of this adversity. Sure things didn't go as smoothly and mutually beneficial as it it should have with the apartment deal. But I see you doing your best and appreciating the right things.

But truly, the world is not set up to want an empowered woman, even as everyone struggles. I think that is something that is missing from the Buddhist path, and in this way sometimes it doesn't seem different from other patriarchal religions in this world. I don't know if this is something you want to explore, but if you do, are there any women's groups in your area that you can join? Women can really learn from each other and find strength from each other by sharing their experiences.

In my previous job in a male dominated field, I did my best to be team oriented, give everyone the benefit of the doubt and do my best at my work and all it did was leave me open to incompetent people playing politics until I was forced to resign. Now, while I still want to keep the team work and respect for colleagues because I know they work for the good of the project and everyone concerned. But, I also know better than to think anyone else is going to do the same unless I demand the same.

And that's just at work right? Then try going home and usually its safe...except when that creeper walks up to you thinking he owns you.

But you handled that too.  :)

Matthew

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Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2014, 05:00:39 AM »
Quote
But truly, the world is not set up to want an empowered woman, even as everyone struggles

Not just women. Men are only empowered within limits: George Carlin says it best, "the illusion of choice":

The American Democracy By. George Carlin
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yossarian

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Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2014, 07:00:39 AM »
Quote
But truly, the world is not set up to want an empowered woman, even as everyone struggles

Not just women. Men are only empowered within limits: George Carlin says it best, "the illusion of choice":

The American Democracy By. George Carlin

Fantastic work! Chomsky-esque even!!   :)




VipassanaXYZ

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Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2014, 07:23:15 AM »
Super love for you all.

Thanks :)

bomega

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Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2014, 10:56:06 PM »
Not just women. Men are only empowered within limits: George Carlin says it best, "the illusion of choice":
I wholeheartedly agree, and have seen it in action (not in a good way.) But the patriarchy supports that hierarchy that subjugates women, but will empower men (in that limited way), which means that women have experiences that have nothing to do with men or said patriarchy that they have to navigate...with tools that don't belong to that patriarchy. This is where the support of other women who are empowered is really valuable (when not themselves fully dependent on male-dominated social structure or unwilling to let go when it doesn't serve them).

But I didn't want this to degrade into an argument about who is worse off. I just wanted to offer the OP another idea.

ETA: Not that I think the discussion had degraded...just meant I hope I didn't come off as causing conflict, cuz I didn't mean it that way. :)
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 11:04:32 PM by bomega »

VipassanaXYZ

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Re: Does anyone else feel naive?
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2014, 06:59:30 AM »
I think the income divide and inequality is even bigger injustice than gender division in industrialization. Rich have an advantage that poor can not even conceive, not even the middle class, it is all so profoundly different at so many levels. There is division in class, country, climatic conditions ...

Luckily, all of us here are in the same boat. Boat that might get us across in the storm of suffering if we see well enough!

I feel better off than being a head of patriarchy of  a super rich country, I really do!
I have liked what I have seen so far, it made me stronger, gave me my strengths and I have a lifetime ahead to live it out learning Dhamma even deeper.

 

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