Author Topic: the dark side of Buddhism  (Read 5265 times)

yossarian

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the dark side of Buddhism
« on: August 16, 2014, 03:15:46 AM »
An interesting article worthy of consideration:
http://rationalist.org.uk/articles/4021/the-dark-side-of-buddhism

"The idea of the void-essence of self is one arrived at through meditation, through exercises in reflection dictated by centuries of tradition. That's enough to give us pause right there – it's not really a process of self-discovery if you're told the method, the steps, and the only acceptable conclusion before you've even begun. Here's the fourteenth (and current) Dalai Lama on how to start a meditation:

"First, look to your posture: arrange the legs in the most comfortable position; set the backbone as straight as an arrow. Place your hands in the position of meditative equipoise, four finger widths below the navel, with the left hand on the bottom, right hand on top, and your thumbs touching to form a triangle. This placement of the hands has connection with the place inside the body where inner heat is generated."

This is already an unpromising start – if you aren't even allowed variation in the number of sub-navel finger widths for hand placement, how can we hope to be allowed to even slightly differ on the supposed object of inner contemplation? And the text bears this out. When speaking of meditating on the mind, the Dalai Lama manoeuvres his audience into a position where his conclusion seems inevitable:

"Try to leave your mind vividly in a natural state... Where does it seem that your consciousness is? Is it with the eyes or where is it? Most likely you have a sense that it is associated with the eyes since we derive most of our awareness of the world through vision.... However, the existence of a separate mental consciousness can be ascertained; for example, when attention is diverted by sound, that which appears to the eye consciousness is not noticed... with persistent practice, consciousness may eventually be perceived or felt as an entity of mere luminosity or knowing, to which anything is capable of appearing... as long as the mind does not encounter the external circumstances of conceptuality, it will abide empty without anything appearing in it."

If this reminds you more than a little of Meno, where Socrates leads a slave boy into "rediscovering" the truths of geometry through a combination of leading questions and implied conclusions, you're not alone. Notice the artful vagueness of the phrase "may eventually be perceived or felt as an entity of mere luminosity" - the subtle pressure that, if you don't perceive consciousness that way at first, you must keep trying until something in you falls into line and you end up with the "right" answer to meditative practice. Or take into consideration the construction of the questions - how the second question immediately shuts down any actual consideration of the first, and how the answer to that second question leads to a single special case open to multiple interpretations which are again immediately declared to be explicable by only one single answer. As it turns out, you have as much freedom of inquiry as you had freedom in hand placement. In a curious twist unique to Buddhism, rigidity of method has infected the structure of belief, ossifying potential explanations of existence into dogmatic assertions mechanically arrived at."
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 03:45:33 AM by yossarian »

VinceField

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Re: the dark side of Buddhism
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2014, 03:54:12 AM »
Quote
But, the drive to infect individuals with an inability to appreciate life except through a filter of regret and shame is perhaps even more dangerous in Buddhism for being so very much more subtle.

I believe this is quite a distorted view and goes against the Buddhist teachings that I have been exposed to thus far. 

If a practitioner of Buddhism views his or her life through a filter of regret and shame, they have obviously missed something important in the teachings.  If one follows the teachings, there should be no cause for guilt or regret because one is following the precepts and thinking and acting skillfully.  Of course, no one is perfect, so when one slips up, they should understand the teachings of karma and know that wallowing in unwholesome states such as shame and regret will only bring about further suffering, and that one has the power and responsibility to sow new wholesome karmic seeds in each moment.  One can discern whether one's own thoughts and actions are skillful or unskillful and modify accordingly without having to entertain negative or unwholesome states.  Any good teacher will ensure their students understand this.

yossarian

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Re: the dark side of Buddhism
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2014, 04:31:36 AM »
Quote
But, the drive to infect individuals with an inability to appreciate life except through a filter of regret and shame is perhaps even more dangerous in Buddhism for being so very much more subtle.

I believe this is quite a distorted view and goes against the Buddhist teachings that I have been exposed to thus far. 

If a practitioner of Buddhism views his or her life through a filter of regret and shame, they have obviously missed something important in the teachings.  If one follows the teachings, there should be no cause for guilt or regret because one is following the precepts and thinking and acting skillfully.  Of course, no one is perfect, so when one slips up, they should understand the teachings of karma and know that wallowing in unwholesome states such as shame and regret will only bring about further suffering, and that one has the power and responsibility to sow new wholesome karmic seeds in each moment.  One can discern whether one's own thoughts and actions are skillful or unskillful and modify accordingly without having to entertain negative or unwholesome states.  Any good teacher will ensure their students understand this.

Hmmm, I don't think you're accurately representing traditional Buddhism. Even the original Pali texts contain quite a bit of evaluation of behavior and make no mention for or against guilt or shame that I've seen. They also certainly don't shun "negative" mental states. Instead they encourage using them to achieve an end, the cultivation of disgust towards the body being but one of many examples... sometimes to disastrous ends: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn54/sn54.009.than.html
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 04:40:29 AM by yossarian »

yossarian

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Re: the dark side of Buddhism
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2014, 04:42:27 AM »
In this Buddhist interpretation, shame is considered a skillful mental state:
http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-practice/dealing-with-guilt-and-shame
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 06:17:38 AM by yossarian »

VinceField

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Re: the dark side of Buddhism
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2014, 06:40:24 AM »
I agree that a healthy sense and degree of shame should be experienced when evaluating certain past unwholesome activities.  This is in line with the Buddha's teachings.  Thanissaro describes it as a sense of shame more directed towards the unwholesome action itself, rather than directed towards oneself; a product of high self esteem because one knows they are above unwholesome actions, rather than of low self esteem, as is generally the case with prolonged feelings of guilt and clinging to regret. 

I specifically used the word "wallowing" as an unhealthy degree, indicating that one should not cling to this shame or carry around the burden of it.  The author of the article seemed to believe that there was an unhealthy level of guilt and shame involved in the Buddhist path.  Life is not meant to be viewed through a filter of guilt, but rather discernment.  A healthy dose of shame may be necessary to assist a person in learning a lesson from an unwholesome action, but one needs not turn this shame into an unnecessary burden, nor should one allow this shame to have a negative impact on one's self esteem.  One must see the error in one's ways, resolve to change, and let go of the regret. 

As far as the idea of karma that I described, I do believe it is an important part of the foundation of traditional Buddhism.

yossarian

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Re: the dark side of Buddhism
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2014, 07:09:23 AM »
I agree that a healthy sense and degree of shame should be experienced when evaluating certain past unwholesome activities.  This is in line with the Buddha's teachings.  Thanissaro describes it as a sense of shame more directed towards the unwholesome action itself, rather than directed towards oneself; a product of high self esteem because one knows they are above unwholesome actions, rather than of low self esteem, as is generally the case with prolonged feelings of guilt and clinging to regret. 

I specifically used the word "wallowing" as an unhealthy degree, indicating that one should not cling to this shame or carry around the burden of it.  The author of the article seemed to believe that there was an unhealthy level of guilt and shame involved in the Buddhist path.  Life is not meant to be viewed through a filter of guilt, but rather discernment.  A healthy dose of shame may be necessary to assist a person in learning a lesson from an unwholesome action, but one needs not turn this shame into an unnecessary burden, nor should one allow this shame to have a negative impact on one's self esteem.  One must see the error in one's ways, resolve to change, and let go of the regret. 

As far as the idea of karma that I described, I do believe it is an important part of the foundation of traditional Buddhism.

It may be important but there's the flip side to the concept where, as described in the article, karma turns into defeatism and sometimes even justifications for situations that people don't have any control over i.e. being born into poverty. I think as long as karma is viewed as cause and effect pertaining to this life, it's acceptable, but once you go beyond that it can easily turn into a method of acceptance of social injustice like the caste system in India.

Alex

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Re: the dark side of Buddhism
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2014, 11:35:50 AM »
Yossarian,

Despite all that’s said and written about meditation, meditation is still a D.I.Y project as Matthew points out. It’s not all that different from finding your own meaningful way in life, despite what parents, school, media, etc. tell us to and expect from us. It may take some time to disentangle from these opinions, expectations, rules and instructions, but isn’t that’s just the way it works? We wouldn’t even know it was possible to free ourselves if there wasn’t this tradition of people attempting to achieve just that and write about it, sometime in very great detail. Also, the map is not the territory or the journ; so it's still something you have to experience yourself.

Do people believe weird things and teach these beliefs to (their) children, which is sometimes not very healthy? Sure they do, even people not belonging to organized religion do.

Can it be tricky to handle the concept of an ideal lifestyle or an ideal state of consciousness? You might find yourself wanting to comply mindlessly or be overwhelmed by guilt and shame if you’re not able or willing to comply? Sure, we’ve probably experienced it first hand.

I’m not a big fan of organized religion, but I’m not quite sure what it is you want to talk about here. What’s really bothering you?

Obol

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Re: the dark side of Buddhism
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2014, 02:11:49 PM »
The author of the article has done no more than cursory research into Buddhist practice.

Quardamon

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Re: the dark side of Buddhism
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2014, 01:05:01 PM »
The author of the article has done no more than cursory research into Buddhist practice.
I think, that that remark does not do justice to the article. What you say is true - but the author speaks of religious believe, without being a Buddhist himself.  A quote from the article:
Quote
For nine years, I worked as a science and maths teacher at a small private Buddhist school in the United States.
[They]  knew that I was an atheist and had absolutely no problem with it as long as I didn't actively proselytise.     . . .    I have no doubt that Buddhist religious belief, as it was practised at the school, did a great deal of harm.

Long ago I followed meditation classes with a Thai Buddhist monk. I saw how very different the religious believe of the Buddhist Thai women around him, was from the religious believe(?) of the Dutch meditation pupils.

If you want a very educated rant on Buddhism by a Western Buddhist, look at this:
http://www.vipassanaforum.net/forum/index.php/topic,1573.msg14396.html#msg14396
The book mentioned there is meant for people who do have a solid basis in meditation and a good knowledge of Buddhism. The book has the title "The Broken Buddha". Like the article in the OP is it a good antidote against blind enthusiasm.
But is is unhealthy to take an antidote before you need it.

Matthew

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Re: the dark side of Buddhism
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2014, 02:07:52 PM »
The author's take on Buddhism is highly flavoured by experience of one tradition in one place. You can't tar everything with the same brush.

His take on Karma is similar to the position Vince was taking recently: deterministic and nihilistic. The monks who blamed the student's study issues on a past life are not in a position to make such a claim - according to the Buddha's teachings.

As I've written before the Buddha taught his Dhamma would be lost by 2000 years ago or so, and as it is practised in Asia by the majority of lay people, it is a religion of belief, offerings and superstition - totally contrary to the Dhamma.

In reality the article does not intelligently discuss the Dhamma but religious Buddhism. These are very different things.
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VinceField

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Re: the dark side of Buddhism
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2014, 04:06:28 PM »
His take on Karma is similar to the position Vince was taking recently: deterministic and nihilistic.

Whooaaaaaaaa there Matthew buddy.  Lol.  My position is, was, and has never been either deterministic or nihilistic.  My own personal opinion regarding karma, as I had explained in the thread in which we were discussing karma, is simply that the individual can shape one's own life through one's intentions. 

The majority of the conversation was speculating on the nature of the Buddha's teachings regarding the deeper, longer-reaching, elusive aspects of karma, so I was taking the position of trying to interpret these teachings, but as I stated, I do not know if they are true and I am not particularly worried if they are or not. 

But even the most elusive aspects of these teachings which we were discussing are neither deterministic nor nihilistic, as the teachings explain that the individual has the ability to sow new karmic seeds in each moment and thus has the power to shape and influence one's own self and one's life in accordance with one's intentions.  And if anything, these teachings give more meaning to life, as they define a definitive set of universal laws regulating the nature of action and consequence in which results can be brought about with appropriate action, as opposed to a totally random universe where everything is out of one's own influence. 

Dharmic Tui

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Re: the dark side of Buddhism
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2014, 07:12:04 PM »
My position is, was, and has never been either deterministic or nihilistic.
Pretty hard to be wrong when you have all bases covered.

yossarian

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Re: the dark side of Buddhism
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2014, 09:18:34 PM »
The author's take on Buddhism is highly flavoured by experience of one tradition in one place. You can't tar everything with the same brush.

His take on Karma is similar to the position Vince was taking recently: deterministic and nihilistic. The monks who blamed the student's study issues on a past life are not in a position to make such a claim - according to the Buddha's teachings.

As I've written before the Buddha taught his Dhamma would be lost by 2000 years ago or so, and as it is practised in Asia by the majority of lay people, it is a religion of belief, offerings and superstition - totally contrary to the Dhamma.

In reality the article does not intelligently discuss the Dhamma but religious Buddhism. These are very different things.

I tend to agree with you.
However, I find that many aspects of the tradition of Buddhism, as opposed to what Buddha taught, sneakily find their way into most if not all of the retreats and teacher's philosophies we (in the west) have access to. I have yet to see a wholly empirical treatment of authoritative Buddhist texts with no input from an outside school in one or other Buddhist tradition. For me, the importance of this critique (and others like it) is to expose the short-comings of many of the ideas that creep their way into Western Buddhism (whether from original, authoritative texts or tradition) in order to avoid the intellectual pitfalls that traditional Buddhist societies sometimes find themselves in.

The treatment of meditation as being typically presented as a process of self-discovery all the while having every station on the path clearly plotted hits the nail on the head... you don't have to tell people ahead of time what to expect from reality. If it's indeed reality, their experience will tell them everything. :D

Also, I don't think the author necessarily had a take on karma other than what he experienced of it in actual practice. It's hard to say that it's "incorrect" as this interpretation is prevalent among traditional Buddhist societies and westerners.

Finally concerning Vince's take on Karma, what I read of that rather extensive thread was one side advocating that positive action was a waste of time due to the complexities involved in trying to influence people (deterministic and fatalistic) and Vince directly opposing that viewpoint. I must admit however, that I checked out after 2 or 3 pages of back and forth so perhaps I didn't see everything said.  ;D
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 09:53:39 PM by yossarian »

Matthew

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Re: the dark side of Buddhism
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2014, 09:50:12 PM »
Quote
In reality the article does not intelligently discuss the Dhamma but religious Buddhism. These are very different things.

I tend to agree with you.
However, I find that many aspects of the tradition of Buddhism, as opposed to what Buddha taught, sneakily find their way into most if not all of the retreats and teacher's philosophies we (in the west) have access to.

Of course this happens - the Dhamma is lost, nobody is teaching it: the gaps have to be filled by bells and whistles, incense and wishes.

I have yet to see a wholly empirical treatment of authoritative Buddhist texts with no input from an outside school in one or other Buddhist tradition.

This book is not a full explanation of the Buddhist path but I thoroughly recommend it for its empirical approach to understanding what the Buddha was talking about:

Rune Johansson, The Psychology of Nirvana (A comparative study of the natural goal of Buddhism and the aims of Modern Western Psychology), George Allen and Unwin Ltd, London 1969

The importance of this critique (and others like it) is to expose the short-comings of many of the ideas that creep their way into Buddhism as it is taught in the West in order to avoid the pitfalls that the traditional Buddhist societies find themselves in.

This is where I think things get interesting. Some Asian Buddhist teachers have said they think the future generations of teachers will come from the west. Wherever Buddhism has traveled it has accumulated cultural gloop to the point where now it is a disparate bunch of teachings, philosophies and wholesale bastardisations of the Dhamma that conflict and confuse.

What cultural baggage do westerners tend to bring? I would propose the answer to be empiricism, and that moreover in doing so, in cutting the cultural gloop, in sticking with experience over belief it is in the west where the Dhamma will be rediscovered.

Also, I don't think the author necessarily had a take on karma other than what he experienced of it in actual practice. It's hard to say that it's incorrect as this interpretation is quite common in traditional Buddhist societies.

He bases one of his arguments that Buddhism has a dark side on karma, as taught at the school he taught at. The truth is the people he learned this from were scholar Buddhists and not meditating Buddhists. They certainly were not enlightened and you can be 100% sure they did not have the path attainments to have the supra-mundane abilities to understand the workings of karma or the see how karma has worked for an individual.

Religious Buddhism has many dark sides. The Dhamma doesn't suffer this problem!
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 09:52:47 PM by Matthew »
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yossarian

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Re: the dark side of Buddhism
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2014, 09:57:37 PM »

He bases one of his arguments that Buddhism has a dark side on karma, as taught at the school he taught at. The truth is the people he learned this from were scholar Buddhists and not meditating Buddhists. They certainly were not enlightened and you can be 100% sure they did not have the path attainments to have the supra-mundane abilities to understand the workings of karma or the see how karma has worked for an individual.

I agree with that. Were even arahants able to detect the past lives of others?
Still, the concept that individual short-comings are due to deeply ingrained internal faults that one has little control over can be... problematic.

I have yet to see a wholly empirical treatment of authoritative Buddhist texts with no input from an outside school in one or other Buddhist tradition.

This book is not a full explanation of the Buddhist path but I thoroughly recommend it for its empirical approach to understanding what the Buddha was talking about:

Rune Johansson, The Psychology of Nirvana (A comparative study of the natural goal of Buddhism and the aims of Modern Western Psychology), George Allen and Unwin Ltd, London 1969

Thanks!  ;)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 10:01:23 PM by yossarian »

Obol

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Re: the dark side of Buddhism
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2014, 10:16:30 PM »
The author of the article has done no more than cursory research into Buddhist practice.
I think, that that remark does not do justice to the article. What you say is true - but the author speaks of religious believe, without being a Buddhist himself.  A quote from the article:
Quote
For nine years, I worked as a science and maths teacher at a small private Buddhist school in the United States.
[They]  knew that I was an atheist and had absolutely no problem with it as long as I didn't actively proselytise.     . . .    I have no doubt that Buddhist religious belief, as it was practised at the school, did a great deal of harm.

Long ago I followed meditation classes with a Thai Buddhist monk. I saw how very different the religious believe of the Buddhist Thai women around him, was from the religious believe(?) of the Dutch meditation pupils.

If you want a very educated rant on Buddhism by a Western Buddhist, look at this:
http://www.vipassanaforum.net/forum/index.php/topic,1573.msg14396.html#msg14396
The book mentioned there is meant for people who do have a solid basis in meditation and a good knowledge of Buddhism. The book has the title "The Broken Buddha". Like the article in the OP is it a good antidote against blind enthusiasm.
But is is unhealthy to take an antidote before you need it.

I was thinking of that bit about finger widths - if the author had done more research they wouldn't have fixated on a point of no real significance to the practice.

Matthew

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Re: the dark side of Buddhism
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2014, 08:08:12 AM »
I agree with that. Were even arahants able to detect the past lives of others?

Some, according to the texts, attained this knowledge. It depends on the path taken. Whilst Nirvana could be achieved through dry insight or the first four jhanas, reading the texts it seems direct knowledge such as this required deeper Jhana penetration.

Quote
Still, the concept that individual short-comings are due to deeply ingrained internal faults that one has little control over can be... problematic.

Yes. Children born with disabilities come to mind, or people killed in natural disasters having this blamed on past karma.
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Matthew

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Re: the dark side of Buddhism
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2014, 08:19:24 AM »
I was thinking of that bit about finger widths - if the author had done more research they wouldn't have fixated on a point of no real significance to the practice.

Well put. This kind of attitude on the part of fundamentalist atheists is all too common. Pick a fault, any fault, apply it to the whole group (even if that isn't true) and use this to leverage your proof it's wrong. For a start the Dalai Lama is the political leader of one sect of one form of "Buddhism" - a term I use loosely in this case as Tibetan Buddhism walks a path and teaches a cosmology far from the Dhamma.

Atheists often fail to recognise that they have beliefs too. The belief in "God" and the belief in "not God" are solid beliefs. Personally I'm agnostic: I know I don't know, and though I have a fairly strong opinion on the subject I don't make a big thing out of it because I also know it cannot be proven one way or the other; this means speculating or debating the issue is not greatly helpful.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 08:23:52 AM by Matthew »
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Alexander

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Re: the dark side of Buddhism
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2014, 09:06:37 AM »

What cultural baggage do westerners tend to bring? I would propose the answer to be empiricism, and that moreover in doing so, in cutting the cultural gloop, in sticking with experience over belief it is in the west where the Dhamma will be rediscovered.


The mindfulness movement, especially that associated with psychological intervention for mental health issues, seems to be stripping even more than the cultural gloop which I think is underselling the whole practice. I hope it doesn't permeate through our culture at the expense of Buddhist teachings.

Matthew

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Re: the dark side of Buddhism
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2014, 10:45:59 AM »

What cultural baggage do westerners tend to bring? I would propose the answer to be empiricism, and that moreover in doing so, in cutting the cultural gloop, in sticking with experience over belief it is in the west where the Dhamma will be rediscovered.


The mindfulness movement, especially that associated with psychological intervention for mental health issues, seems to be stripping even more than the cultural gloop which I think is underselling the whole practice. I hope it doesn't permeate through our culture at the expense of Buddhist teachings.

The mindfulness movement isn't just stripping cultural gloop - it's whole take is misinformed: small parts of the practice element of Dhamma are used to help achieve (prop up) modern Western psychology's goals of a balanced ego, a completely different goal to that of the path.
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