Visualisation or meditation?

[p340]

First i want say hello to everybody around here. I am very happy that there are so many loving and caring people out there, and that they share their wisdom. I have some questions about meditation practice that other threads didn't completly answer. I hope i'll do no repost..

I am a beginner. I tried some different approaches and chose "headspace", the app or the programm to get started with meditation seriously. After some reading here i guess what *Andy* teaches is shamatha with a little bit of vipassana. So the technic starts with getting rested, then scanning the body, getting clear about motivation, and then focus on breath while counting to ten, later on to five only the out-breaths.

My trouble:
while everything of this i visualize. While body scanning i visualize the bodyparts - i can see them in front of me. So i guess it's quite dissoziative. The same happens with my breath. I visualize my nose or even imagine a pale blue breath while i am following it. or i visualize my chest expanding, seeing through me. In different threads some say that this is a "normal obstacle" on the path, and that one should try not to visualize.

My problem is i can not do anything without visualization. It is that much effort for me just to let the visualizations for fractions of a second go, that there is no real meditation practice left. I do not relax. It is very, very hard for me.

So i have to decide:

- visualize and get relaxed after following an picture of my breath which isn't my breath. I feel good after doing this, but some say it will never develop in real meditation, just in some sort of hypnosis.

or

- fight (!) for real attention without visualisations or imagination, wich does't make me feel really good afterwards...


Thank you so much.

[Just A Simple Guy]

I'm a beginner also and can't answer your specific questions, however I can relate what seems to work for me. I keep it real simple. I start out relaxing my muscles from feet to head, one breath at a time, then three breaths relaxing the whole body.

Then I just breath. In and out. Natural. Not trying to do anything special. I attend to the sensation of breathing. Not necessarily following the breath per se, but the various sensations of the body as the breath comes in and then goes out. I tried counting but in truth it is a distraction for me so I don't count.

If I find my mind wandering, I just note it and gently return my attention to breathing.

I try to keep it as simple as possible. No preconceptions. No expectations. Just the doing.

[Matthew]

Hello p,

Welcome to the forum. Just A Simple Guy has given you wise advice, all I will do is elaborate a little on that:

My problem is i can not do anything without visualization. It is that much effort for me just to let the visualizations for fractions of a second go, that there is no real meditation practice left. I do not relax. It is very, very hard for me.

Calm, relaxed awareness is the foundation of good meditation. Your current practice seems very formulaic. All the visualisations do is add another layer of fabrication between you and reality. I don't think they are helping you from what you say.

If relaxation and following the breath is very hard for you is probably where you need to start.

So i have to decide:

- visualize and get relaxed after following an picture of my breath which isn't my breath. I feel good after doing this, but some say it will never develop in real meditation, just in some sort of hypnosis.

or

- fight (!) for real attention without visualisations or imagination, wich does't make me feel really good afterwards...


Thank you so much.

You have other choices. Dropping the visualisation I suspect would be helpful to you but it certainly doesn't mean you need to "fight". Fighting doesn't sound very relaxed does it? That is not to say that meditation does not require some effort yet there needs to be a balance between calm and effort.

In meditation you are learning to know reality as it is. To do this introducing fabrications such as visualisation really just get in the way. Turning it into a fight will also get in the way.

On the forum homepage there is a meditation instruction for shamatha/calm-abiding. It might be a useful alternative to the two proposed routes forward you have identified for yourself.

No fabrication (any form of visualisation), just seeing and feeling things as they are. Development of calm concentration, through paying attention to the breath and putting in enough effort to repeatedly return to the breath when mind is drawn away over a period of time. Simplify your practice don't complicate it. It's not rocket science.

Kind regards,

Matthew

[siddharthgode]

hi p340,

Hahahahaha this question has haunted me for years.  Nobody gave me satisfying answer for this.

Il try to put some insights into the question and lets see if this helps.

For now forget about visualizing everything that happens to you. You cant stop visualization just by wanting it to stop just like you cant stop arising of anger just by wanting it. One needs curtain amount of awareness to deal with these subtle problems. 

When one starts of meditation he thinks that everything happens in one consciousness. i.e., there is only one consciousness.
But in reality there are six consciousness working together to create our experience. i.e., eye con. , ear con., tongue con., nose con., touch con. and mind con.

When awareness of the mediator increases he will be able to experience them individually and separately and see their interactions.
The visualization occurs because of interaction between mind consciousness and the respective sense consciousness. Mind consciousness brings all data inside to work with it. This process stops when one enters first jhanna. Only then can one stop the visualizations and just experience individual senses.

Ok all the above is just to satisfy your curious mind.... now forget it all and also your question and just work on calming the mind. 

visualize and get relaxed after following an picture of my breath which isn't my breath. I feel good after doing this, but some say it will never develop in real meditation, just in some sort of hypnosis.

Its not true. You are just being aware of two activities instead of one. But both are present moment awareness so nothing wrong in that. Actually its better.

[Matthew]

Hi Sid,

You cant stop visualization just by wanting it to stop just like you cant stop arising of anger just by wanting it.

I think we must be using or understanding this word differently ... Visualisation is an intentional act of the mind whereas anger arises without intention, in my understanding and experience. Thus visualisation can be stopped at a much, much less subtle level than anger.

To visualize is active, to identify with anger is passive. Unless we are contemplating something completely different?

Kindly,

Matthew

[siddharthgode]

I guess it's wrong to call visualization. What he is asking about is interpretation of sense data using space time.

For example if we are scanning for sensation we do it by creating details of the body part , distance between sensations etc.. Inside our mind.. This is what the poster is referring to visualization...


Yes it can be tackled much sooner than roots of anger but not at the start of meditation.

[Matthew]

I guess it's wrong to call visualization. What he is asking about is interpretation of sense data using space time.
...

That conclusion does not seem to follow from p's words:

...

My trouble:
while everything of this i visualize. While body scanning i visualize the bodyparts - i can see them in front of me. So i guess it's quite dissoziative. The same happens with my breath. I visualize my nose or even imagine a pale blue breath while i am following it. or i visualize my chest expanding, seeing through me. In different threads some say that this is a "normal obstacle" on the path, and that one should try not to visualize.

My problem is i can not do anything without visualization.
...

?

[Quardamon]

Hello, and welcome to the forum.

My trouble: while everything of this i visualize. While body scanning i visualize the bodyparts - i can see them in front of me. So i guess it's quite dissociative.

To be honest, I fail to see why this would have to work dissociative. Speaking for myself, after several years, I usually still visualise along with a more direct sensing of the body.

Maybe this little exercise would help you. It is what we used to do thirty five years ago in Natural Dance workshops as originally taught by Anna Halprin:
Lay on your back, with your eyes closed and relax. Then put the palms of the hands together and rub them, generating warmth between the flat hands. Then lay the hands cupped over your closed eyes. Allow the feeling of warmth from your hands to relax the eyes. Relax the eyes, then the head, then also the neck. For some people, it would help to move the body a little bit. We would encourage the participants to relax the body bit by bit, so in this case starting from the eyes and the head and the neck.

What I hope is that this little exercise will help you to feel comfortable in your body.

Best wishes.

[p340]

First of all. Thank you all for your answers! I did not think that there would be this much help so fast.

I'm a beginner also and can't answer your specific questions, however I can relate what seems to work for me. I keep it real simple. I start out relaxing my muscles from feet to head, one breath at a time, then three breaths relaxing the whole body.

Then I just breath. In and out. Natural. Not trying to do anything special. I attend to the sensation of breathing. Not necessarily following the breath per se, but the various sensations of the body as the breath comes in and then goes out. I tried counting but in truth it is a distraction for me so I don't count.

If I find my mind wandering, I just note it and gently return my attention to breathing.

I try to keep it as simple as possible. No preconceptions. No expectations. Just the doing.

This is my way of approaching it, too. Just that i "have to" visualize when relaxing body part by body part, breathing etc. It works fine. But i want to make sure that what i am doing is what i am aiming for. Maybe it sounds like i approach it very aggressive and in panic. But that's not true What you hear is just the confusion about this one meta-theme.

Hello, and welcome to the forum.

My trouble: while everything of this i visualize. While body scanning i visualize the bodyparts - i can see them in front of me. So i guess it's quite dissociative.

To be honest, I fail to see why this would have to work dissociative. Speaking for myself, after several years, I usually still visualise along with a more direct sensing of the body.

I called it dissociative because the picture in front of your mind-eye isn't the place where the breathing or relaxation happens (?). It is just an illusion, and my attention goes somewhere else. It's not meditating on the breath, it's meditating on a picture of it.. Or do you think this isn't true?

Referring to your discussion about my use of the term visualisation: it's more like my way of thinking (visual) as an really active action. That makes it so hard for me to let go. It's just natural. As you say, it comes with my way of approaching space time.

Everything you wrote helped me. Most resonance in me i found in this:

When awareness of the mediator increases he will be able to experience them individually and separately and see their interactions.
The visualization occurs because of interaction between mind consciousness and the respective sense consciousness. Mind consciousness brings all data inside to work with it. This process stops when one enters first jhanna. Only then can one stop the visualizations and just experience individual senses.

Ok all the above is just to satisfy your curious mind.... now forget it all and also your question and just work on calming the mind. 

visualize and get relaxed after following an picture of my breath which isn't my breath. I feel good after doing this, but some say it will never develop in real meditation, just in some sort of hypnosis.

Its not true. You are just being aware of two activities instead of one. But both are present moment awareness so nothing wrong in that. Actually its better.

I guess it's wrong to call visualization. What he is asking about is interpretation of sense data using space time.

For example if we are scanning for sensation we do it by creating details of the body part , distance between sensations etc.. Inside our mind.. This is what the poster is referring to visualization...

So what do you think, is this a problem? Or maybe i am awesome to recognize it?  No really, this interpretation of space time (which is to me visual) what is it. How does it occur in your practice?

Maybe with more calming practice this obstacle will go by itself. I just wanted to make sure that i am not on a wrong way. Quardamon and siddarthgode seem to have had similar expierences, that's reassuring. 
But it will be difficult to just let the visuals happen and not judge it :/ I will do my best.

So i guess i will keep up my practice and tell you about my progress! OMG i hope my english doesn't give you gossebumps.. ^^

[Just A Simple Guy]

Hmm, I wonder if it's just a matter of semantics? From my perspective I believe I'm using the sense of proprioception when I go through all my body parts during my beginning relaxation.

So for me I'm not actually visualizing per se, but sensing in a more abstract way that my foot is down 'there' in relation to the rest of my body and I can 'feel' it down there, know it's exact location. So I don't 'see' it in any sense of that word, but just having that sense of orientation seems to be good enough. I can also feel the tension drain from the muscles during exhale.

Same for the sensation of breathing, or for that matter any other bodily sensation that arises.

Not sure if this is what you mean by visualizing, but I thought I'd put it out there.

Oh, and there's no problem with your English whatsoever. ;-)

[Matthew]

I'd conclude it's two things: part semantics and part that p is a very visual thinker (many people think in different ways: visual, Kinesthetic, auditory etc)

Visual thinking is still a form of thinking ... Bringing attention back to the physical sensations created by the breathing process rather than following the visual thought train works just as well as for verbal thought trains.

[siddharthgode]

No really, this interpretation of space time (which is to me visual) what is it. How does it occur in your practice?

Telling you about what occurs in my practice can be counter productive so il obstrain from that.

So what do you think, is this a problem?

No. Just continue with practice. Some things can only be handled when the time is right.
One of the most important of eight fold path is Right Effort. You should know when to tackle when.

[p340]

Hm. I just tried to practice and i must say my confusion is now even bigger. I'm absoultly not sure anymore what i am doing. I'm switching between all the ways to cope with that problem... it's frustrating.

Hm. I guess my proprioception is mixed up with some "visions", of course i can feel how long my breath reaches down there. But while measuring this distance in space-time (some proprioceptive act) i do see blurry illustrations of what my attention is focused on. Then i am relaxed, but not really perceiving the full kinesthetic feeling...

When i try to let go the blurry illustrations i can "hold" that perception just a second, and it's gone.

What confuses me is that this meditation is described as effortless, as stepping back, just being an observer. It seems to me just observing isn't quite effortless to me.

[siddharthgode]

It's not meditating on the breath, it's meditating on a picture of it.. Or do you think this isn't true?

You are up to something here.

Do you think you have ever seen any outside object ever in your life?
You can only see the image that gets generated by the interaction of outside object and your eye consciousness. So that image is just in your head. Its not the real thing !!!!!!

Same way you are mediating on the experience of the breath by your mind, not on breath itself.

I would advice to drop these things for the time matter. As i said in the previous post. RIGHT EFFORT.

[p340]

I really appreciate your insights! But i do not understand your advice. How to drop it?

When i focus on this picture i just know now: it is not the real thing. Then i want the real thing. But the real thing slipps through my fingers all the time.. it's like i stumbled on something too early...

But of course i will try!

[siddharthgode]

Hm. I just tried to practice and i must say my confusion is now even bigger. I'm absoultly not sure anymore what i am doing. I'm switching between all the ways to cope with that problem... it's frustrating.

I think you have not understood the basics of Buddha's teachings. Have you attended any retreats ?

I dont see any problem in your practice. You are just creating one.

Practice the basic samatha for now.
Breathing in I calm my mind and body. Breathing out i calm my mind and body. Let visualization or thoughts or internal chat happen if they happen.

[p340]

Yeah, that's what i will try to do. Just watch all of this happen. Time will bring clarity.

Thank you all for helping!

[Matthew]

p,

I'd suggest you read the whole thing then experiment but this is the core. The key, in your situation, is the realisation/recognition that visualisation is just a different form of "thinking" or intellectualising:

4. The core of the practice:

i) Breathing and Relaxing.

Breathe in paying attention to bodily sensations as you breathe and calming the body as you breathe. Breathe out paying attention to bodily sensations and calming the body as you breathe.

Notes: Do not intellectualise where you pay attention to or try to "follow the path of the breath in the body" or any other such thing - these are fabrications. Pay attention to the actual sensations in your body, wherever they are. Do not interfere with the natural breathing pattern, just pay attention to the sensations in the body as you breathe.

ii) Thoughts: Let thoughts be.

Notes: Do not try to suppress them yet do not follow them. Let them arise and fall like waves coming up on the beach and flowing back into the sea. Artificially forcing quiet on your mind is another form of fabrication. It may make you feel OK but it will be a subtle form of self-hypnosis and contrary to the core of this practice which is seeing things as they are. Thoughts will happen - a lot at first: expect to notice how busy your mind is all the time - you just started paying attention to yourself and much that was going on automatically in the background will progressively come into your awareness.

When we say "do not follow thoughts" what is meant is this: Usually one thought triggers another. For example you might experience the thought "What shall I have for dinner tonight?" - usually the mind is then triggered into further thinking, such as, "Oh I fancy cheese on toast. Damn .. we have no cheese at home. I'll have to go to the supermarket after work. Oh that will be bothersome, it's always so busy at that time. etc. etc. etc."

The aim is to be aware of thought happening without allowing this follow-through of habituated thinking to continue. Do not expect to achieve this from the moment you start the practice. Depending on the initial internal conditions of your bodymind, the time you invest in the practice and the external conditions of your day-today life, it can take from some hours of practice to some months before having the experience of a single thought with no "follow through" thinking.

Do not force your mind into silence and do not fall into the trap of criticising yourself for having follow-through thinking occur. This is just natural! It is your current conditioned state - and this is what this practice will gently, in time, and safely, unravel.

iii) Always return to the sensations in the body as you breathe and calming the body as you breathe.

Notes: Thoughts will occur. You will suffer "follow-through" thinking so notice when it has happened and your mind has wandered from the sensations in the body as you breathe and calming the body as you breathe, then return the focus of the mind to those sensations and calming the body. When you notice you have got caught in a "train of thoughts", you can, at the beginning, make a mental note of this if you wish: just say "thinking" to yourself in your mind. It is not encouraged to do this for an extended period as it will be a new habit, but for some beginners it helps to "kick-start" the practice.

This returning of the attention to the bodily sensations and calming the body is the first stage of training in calm-abiding meditation. If you force quiet on your mind and avoid this stage you will never progress beyond a mild hypnotic calming trance. This trance can bring peace and relief yet it will not deeply change the way your bodymind works.

Only by repeatedly failing to keep the attention on the sensations in the body as you breathe and calm the body, then by noticing/becoming aware you have done so, and then gently (and without self-criticism - just another form of follow-on thinking), returning the attention to those sensations and calming will you train yourself in the first skill in concentration: maintaining the focus on an object (the bodily sensations).

It's all about calming the mind and then directing the mind (concentration), rather than being dragged around by the habituated mind (in your situation through "visualisation"). The other highly significant point for you is that the whole practice is around physical sensations: stuff you feel happening to your body, moment by moment as you breathe in and out. Put a layer of visualisation or allow it to persist between you and reality and you will stay stuck in the same place until you put in enough effort and relaxation to allow reality to seep in.

Kindly,

Matthew

PS relaxing the body one bit at a time won't help: being open to whole body sensation will: there is no fabrication in involved.

[Dharmic Tui]

I think maybe youre concentrating a bit too hard on the end result. This is a process that requires a lot of practice and time to bare fruit. You are watching the breath but more importantly you're also challenging mental processes which developed over decades.Just relax, note what happens and how it feels and take your time.

[p340]

hey, thank you so much everybody. and thank you matthew for this text. I will now try to call it *visual* when it occurs and hope that is it true, that it will vanish by itself over time. I am very happy and seeing forward to practice first thing in the morning tomorrow.

It's interesting that the texts states: do not try to "follow the path of the breath in the body". I heard stuff like this a lot^^

[Matthew]

...
It's interesting that the texts states: do not try to "follow the path of the breath in the body". I heard stuff like this a lot^^

No worries p. When crafting that text I wrote not to follow the path of the breath in the body as that is just another form of thinking/fabrication.

Enjoy exploring

[p340]

Hi!

I know, it's been a long time. Half a year ago i started this thread. I had trouble meditating, because i was confused by my visualizations. After investigating i dropped practice for some time, i felt frustrated and overchallenged. It maybe wasn't just the right time, and even though you gave me great advice, none could reach through to me.

I started my practice again, and as i finally 'get it', i wanted to share my solution to the troubles. Maybe someone searches for an answer too..

The concentration style meditation was just not the right way to start for me. In this tiny line matthew wrote, he touched the solution:

PS relaxing the body one bit at a time won't help: being open to whole body sensation will: there is no fabrication in involved.

What was/is the right way to start (for me) is the witnessing state. I know this state and it's totally natural for me to let it happen. Who finally handed me the right way of approaching was Tara Brach (i don't know anything about this person, i just used her guided meditations).

My practice now looks as follows, mind that i'm still a beginner:

# I sit upright, close my eyes.

# 3-4 big breaths.

# I let go of any tension in my face, my shoulders, hands etc. In this part i let the visualizations happen, they tend to be not that strong because of the intense proprioceptive feeling of relaxation - it's a little bit like it overwrites the visual reflection of the body part i'm focusing.

# Then I open up to the moment. Open up all senses and let all sensations just come, recognize them, pass. Everything on thi inside, everything on the outside of my skin. When i get distracted, i gently move back to the witnessing state. It feels like an very soft awakening, and it happens to me increasingly in everday life. Brach helped me noticing this state and embracing it.

# The breath: the breath isn't central in my practice at the moment. it's just an anchor, if i do not shift all my awareness onto it, i can recognize it without visualization. when i try to concentrate on it, the old visualization vs. true feeling theme arises. Same holds true for body scanning. I can achieve whole body awareness (to a certain degree) but not concentrated awareness without visual images.

I'm practicing regularly for 3 weeks now, before was on and off. 20 min in the morning after my shower and 20 to 40 minutes in the evening. sometime i have to skip a day. this new approach makes it a lot easier for me to just appreciate the practice, and not long for a goal (f.e. letting go of visuals). I really enjoy my practice now.

As i don't want to skip concentration meditation (like vipassana to my understanding) i casually practice it too sometimes. Sometimes i finish my witnessing meditation with an attempt to concentrate on the breath: In, Pause, Out, Pause. And if i laid enough ground with my practice upfront it's sometimes visual free for a breath or two, just the feeling. these are precious moments that leave me in bliss.

I'm open to discuss my ways and want to thank you all again. I read this thread a few times again, and everytime i could gain some new insight out of it!

Have a nice weekend!

[Matthew]

Hi p340

Good to hear from you again - and that you resolved the issue at hand. Did you read the thread Relaxation: The key and why it's importance is misunderstood?

It so very often it's the case that tension is allowed to persist in the practice and that fabrications make this worse.

Glad you are onto a more balance ride

Matthew

[p340]

Yes i have read it. But it wasn't helpful at the time. For me starting in meditation had two mutually exclusive directives:

1. Relax
2. Watch the breath

Watching the breath took my relaxation immediately. I guess it's important not just to relax, get calm AND aware. In this thread you mentioned some state similar positions. Thats my view on it now too. Helpful directives for me would have been:

1. Relax, calm yourself, become aware of the moment, of your body and mind existing, watch and recognize everything that arises. First, try nothing else, just practice this.

2. When you practiced this a few weeks, try the next step: Watch the breath, just the feeling, no visual fabrications.
Go back to state 1 when you feel you get too tense about it. The calm witnessing and aware state should be your base on which everything else just builds on.

-
Can i ask you, what do you think about my view on it? I would like to get my thoughts mirrored by somebody more experienced.

P

[Matthew]

P,

I see a lot of wisdom in your view on this. Many people come to this site and to meditation in general and struggle a great deal. The lack of knowledge of what relaxation is seems to be a key and common theme. You say that for you the directives of relax and watch the breath were mutually exclusive: this may be the root of that issue.

Thank you,

M