Author Topic: Unsatisfactory of meditation and mindfulness itself  (Read 7089 times)

J0rrit

  • Member
  • Write something about yourself here
    • -
Unsatisfactory of meditation and mindfulness itself
« on: November 05, 2013, 11:28:03 AM »
Hello there,

Since a short time I became aware of the unsatisfactory nature of meditation and mindfulness itself, this because I became aware of the impermanence of it. Is this a normal development? I can imagine this can both be unmotivating (what is the use of mindfulness, when it's also impermanent and unsatisfactory?) but on the other side, without the mindfulness itself one couldn't realize this...

Johann (Hanzze)

Re: Unsatisfactory of meditation and mindfulness itself
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2013, 11:37:27 AM »
So you got enlightened now?  :) Stay open, there are plenty of things, with are also impermanent and and you stick with them.
After all the joy of meditation, is not that harmful.

There are many people who know intellectual that car driving kills, and destroys environment but as long as they seek not for the reason and understand the reason, its just an idea and they would not get really ride of there desire.

Do you understand what I mean. Don't seek for excuses, but for challenge how to get ride of the fooler in the mind committee.  Maybe this talk helps you. Take your time its, much but good to understand the path and how it works.

metta & mudita

J0rrit

  • Member
  • Write something about yourself here
    • -
Re: Unsatisfactory of meditation and mindfulness itself
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2013, 12:56:21 PM »
So you got enlightened now?  :) Stay open, there are plenty of things, with are also impermanent and and you stick with them.
After all the joy of meditation, is not that harmful.

There are many people who know intellectual that car driving kills, and destroys environment but as long as they seek not for the reason and understand the reason, its just an idea and they would not get really ride of there desire.

Do you understand what I mean. Don't seek for excuses, but for challenge how to get ride of the fooler in the mind committee.  Maybe this talk helps you. Take your time its, much but good to understand the path and how it works.

metta & mudita

I don't really understand what you mean, no... ?

DK

  • Member
  • Practicing, adapting, and practicing.
    • Practical
Re: Unsatisfactory of meditation and mindfulness itself
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2013, 09:45:00 PM »
The way my own mind has conceptualized it is as follows.

Mindfulness is the bare awareness of sensory phenomena before things are added to it by the mind.  It's feeling and thought before we call it and identify it as feeling and thought.  In my experience, it's not mindfulness that is unsatisfactory, it is life that is unsatisfactory, and it is through mindfulness that this is discovered.  Mindfulness is the tool, like a microscope; it is not the tool that makes things as they are, it only shows you what is already there.

With this knowledge comes the understanding that nothing in life will satisfy you permanently.  With this comes the knowledge that you do not have to chase and run from all these feelings, fears and cravings, considering they will rise and fall on their own with no solid significance.  This is nirvana, the "going out" of desire and aversion, the end of the storm that forces you to go this way and that, and with it comes a peace with the knowledge that there is no where to go and nothing to do, considering how everything comes and goes without a persistent essence.

You see, and again this is my experience, life is not pleasant.  You spend your entire life working for satisfaction but doomed to never get it, you grow attached to family and friends and all your hard work, you have to care for your body, clean and feed it, you experience insatiable drives that you never asked for, and in the end you die.  I can with all honesty and a straight face that I wish I was never born - this is a crummy gig when you look at it.  The teachings of the Buddha have been for me a way to experience life without chasing after craving, and the ability to experience it without chasing after extinction (because I still do not wish to hurt those who care for me, and craving for extinction doesn't change the fact you are still craving).  It is a way to experience peace...just peace.  Nothing good or bad, but just a freedom from the various poisons we inflict upon ourselves due to unskillful means, due to our life situation.

I feel this is a very normal experience to feel, considering you are looking at the bare bones of what is right in front of you.  It is at the point of this realization, you have to think about what it is you feel once you come across these facts, and thinking how to act in regards to them.  How to act skillfully with the knowledge that an indefinite number of sentient beings are searching for satisfaction where it does not exist, and they are not aware of that fact they cause their own suffering because they are looking for wholesomeness in an unwholesome by nature existence.
In my experience, peace is not enjoyment or happiness, nor will peace keep you from getting hurt or depressed.  Peace is only the quality of not being disturbed.

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Member
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • Buddhism is a practical psychology and philosophy, not a religion.
    • If you cling to view, you must know this limits your potential.
Re: Unsatisfactory of meditation and mindfulness itself
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2013, 10:44:27 PM »
Hello there,

Since a short time I became aware of the unsatisfactory nature of meditation and mindfulness itself, this because I became aware of the impermanence of it. Is this a normal development? I can imagine this can both be unmotivating (what is the use of mindfulness, when it's also impermanent and unsatisfactory?) but on the other side, without the mindfulness itself one couldn't realize this...

Keep walking the path, you will soon discover the impermanence is impermanent.

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

J0rrit

  • Member
  • Write something about yourself here
    • -
Re: Unsatisfactory of meditation and mindfulness itself
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2013, 04:57:15 PM »
Ok...can you tell something about these insights?

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Member
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • Buddhism is a practical psychology and philosophy, not a religion.
    • If you cling to view, you must know this limits your potential.
Re: Unsatisfactory of meditation and mindfulness itself
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2013, 07:45:42 PM »
Better you sit in peace, returning to the breath and find them for yourself - other's words may confuse you. The point of meditation is to connect to reality beyond words and concepts in the silence of the knowing mind.
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

J0rrit

  • Member
  • Write something about yourself here
    • -
Re: Unsatisfactory of meditation and mindfulness itself
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2013, 08:48:18 PM »
Well, thank you. I was more pointing on the fact that you seem to know which one is coming next, how come ?

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Member
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • Buddhism is a practical psychology and philosophy, not a religion.
    • If you cling to view, you must know this limits your potential.
Re: Unsatisfactory of meditation and mindfulness itself
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2013, 02:35:58 AM »
I don't. for sure, the path may be long or short depending on each person's circuumstance and how they travel it. Also there is not one way through the maze but many. At the beginnning, however, there are a limited number of starting points.

Equanimity may be the next milestone you pass, maybe some insight must preceed it though: into the unsatisfactory and impermamemt nature of all things. Whatever it is, you must learn to fall into it through awake relaxation. It's not unlike learning to ride a bike: you have to fall off a few times before you can find your balance, and you can't find this balance by thinking: nor in meditation for thinking is the problem not the cure.
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

dimeo

  • Member
  • “What we think, we become.“
    • Mahamudra / Dzogchen
Re: Unsatisfactory of meditation and mindfulness itself
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2013, 02:14:26 AM »
Unsatisfactory to who?   Who became aware of this?  If you think it's your "self",  try looking for this self when you meditate.  Try to find it and look directly at it.     

A profound insight that frequently arises from this is the inherent 'emptiness' of  this idea of self. 

You may wish to try reading some of the sutras/teachings on this and practising meditating on this idea of sunyata.

Another profound realization is that seeking personal enlightenment for the sake of selfish desires is ultimately meaningless.   So we begin seeking to find compassion and liberation for all sentient beings from suffering.







Hello there,

Since a short time I became aware of the unsatisfactory nature of meditation and mindfulness itself, this because I became aware of the impermanence of it. Is this a normal development? I can imagine this can both be unmotivating (what is the use of mindfulness, when it's also impermanent and unsatisfactory?) but on the other side, without the mindfulness itself one couldn't realize this...
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 02:17:50 AM by dimeo »

J0rrit

  • Member
  • Write something about yourself here
    • -
Re: Unsatisfactory of meditation and mindfulness itself
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2013, 01:17:10 PM »
This insight is really becoming a disturbance as my motivation to meditate and to be mindfull has decreased, because I see now that mindfulness is also unsatisfactory, because it's impermanent, and because I have to practice to keep it. And if I can't practice for 1 or two days, it will decrease...

any tips ?

Renze

  • Member
    • Ungrounded
    • No hope
Re: Unsatisfactory of meditation and mindfulness itself
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2013, 02:07:33 PM »
It sounds to me you're attached to result, and this is why you're suffering. You're meditating because you're expecting a certain result, and now you've become aware that result is impermanent. But you're still desperately clinging to it.
Just like all other things on the Buddhist path, the focus should be on the process and never on the result. Giving dana is only meaningful if you don't expect anything in return. Forgiving a person is only meaningful if you don't expect that person to change their behaviour. Focusing on results only leads to more suffering, because you're going to be disappointed a lot of times. The only skillful approach to meditation is to sit everytime without expectations, and to give it the best you got.

dimeo

  • Member
  • “What we think, we become.“
    • Mahamudra / Dzogchen
Re: Unsatisfactory of meditation and mindfulness itself
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2013, 05:39:44 PM »
@ J0rrit

Are you not sitting right on top of the thing you're looking for.  :D
You are only seeing one part of it all...  the 'unsatisfactory' of things.  You say you are displeased by what you find is lacking.
But what of the part you do have? Can you not see the whole picture?




Do you not also practice vipassana for  "insight into the true nature of reality"?
Has your meditation practice not also lead you towards a profound insight at this point?  <--- The part you have is worth more than any gold!


Buddha completely explained why the nature of life is unsatisfactoryness (because of birth, old age, disease, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, despair, aversion, attachment etc). This is the first noble truth.   And now more than ever before you have direct experience and awareness of this nature of reality.

As you continue the search for your dharma path.. remember the billions of sentient beings who come before us that guide our way.

If you haven't yet... you may wish to look at teachings about the second, third and forth noble truths.
 
2nd "The Noble Truth of the Origin of Suffering"
3rd "The Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering"
4th "The Noble Eightfold Path leading to the Cessation of Suffering"




« Last Edit: November 16, 2013, 05:53:19 PM by dimeo »

J0rrit

  • Member
  • Write something about yourself here
    • -
Re: Unsatisfactory of meditation and mindfulness itself
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2013, 11:16:35 PM »
It sounds to me you're attached to result, and this is why you're suffering. You're meditating because you're expecting a certain result, and now you've become aware that result is impermanent. But you're still desperately clinging to it.
Just like all other things on the Buddhist path, the focus should be on the process and never on the result. Giving dana is only meaningful if you don't expect anything in return. Forgiving a person is only meaningful if you don't expect that person to change their behaviour. Focusing on results only leads to more suffering, because you're going to be disappointed a lot of times. The only skillful approach to meditation is to sit everytime without expectations, and to give it the best you got.

Yes, I think you are completely right. But...how can I be motivated to gives such time to practice if I don't expect any results. You are right, the result is the source of suffering I have at the moment, and it is demotivating. I also notice that the fact that I have come to see that everything is impermanent, and for example, the whole universe will also be gone in a couple billion years, that made me a little depressed I guess. It's like I understand that life is complete suffering, and that there is an easy way out: death.

Any tips? How don't to expect any results ?

J0rrit

  • Member
  • Write something about yourself here
    • -
Re: Unsatisfactory of meditation and mindfulness itself
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2013, 11:19:38 PM »
I don't. for sure, the path may be long or short depending on each person's circuumstance and how they travel it. Also there is not one way through the maze but many. At the beginnning, however, there are a limited number of starting points.

Equanimity may be the next milestone you pass, maybe some insight must preceed it though: into the unsatisfactory and impermamemt nature of all things. Whatever it is, you must learn to fall into it through awake relaxation. It's not unlike learning to ride a bike: you have to fall off a few times before you can find your balance, and you can't find this balance by thinking: nor in meditation for thinking is the problem not the cure.

'into the unsatisfactory and impermamemt nature of all things', this is what I now 'feel' or understand at the moment. But this makes me depressed...

J0rrit

  • Member
  • Write something about yourself here
    • -
Re: Unsatisfactory of meditation and mindfulness itself
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2013, 01:42:33 PM »
ok. I have read about this. I haven't meditated for 1,5 week, and I'm depressed in bed, because I have the feeling everything is boring and unsatisfactory in the end. Like it has no use more. I think this is called a 'spiritual crisis'. Any help ?

Renze

  • Member
    • Ungrounded
    • No hope
Re: Unsatisfactory of meditation and mindfulness itself
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2013, 02:34:56 PM »
I would call the doctor for your depression. It seems pretty serious. Don't label it as a spiritual crisis yet, see what a conventional doctor has to say about it.

dimeo

  • Member
  • “What we think, we become.“
    • Mahamudra / Dzogchen
Re: Unsatisfactory of meditation and mindfulness itself
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2013, 01:55:05 AM »
I sincerely wish you a quick recovery to good health J0rrit!!
Stay in touch with us ok?

I've experienced episodes of depression before and my heart goes out to you.
Know you are not alone! 

For me what helped was I found an awesome therapist guidance councillor at the university I was attending.  The first one I went to didn't work for me so I tried a different one after and I just felt at home with him talking it through with him frequently for a period of time.

During that same time I found meditation for the first time in my life and it really helped.  I went to a small local Tibetan temple with a friend and got introduced to basic ideas of mahamudra meditation.  I could say it really changed my life for the better.

 Try to maintain a routine that keeps you moving. One thing leads to the next too.  I got more active doing some cycling which helped as well.  Keep making sure you get enough healthy food and sleep too.

Know that this depression is also impermanent and doesn't last forever either.

Although there is much suffering in the world, your awareness of that can give rise to compassion for others.  You have so much to give to the world!  Awareness of the unsatisfactory nature of life is a just a step towards the next stage of awakening.  Keep studying the 3rd and 4th noble truths about the cessation of suffering.

I hope you find bliss, refuge and inner peace.  Much metta to you...   
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 02:30:50 AM by dimeo »

floyd

Re: Unsatisfactory of meditation and mindfulness itself
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2013, 12:20:18 PM »
Hi JOrrit

Dharma talks are a great source of inspiration. They contain a great deal of good sense that can help gain a better understanding of yourself and your surroundings. Try diydharma.org or youtube. Like many here, I find Ajahn Brahm is especially good - he has a very easy manner but doesn't avoid the burning questions.

Metta meditation is also very helpful as it develops unconditional love, especially for yourself. It's not the easiest thing to do but the benefits are profound. I've found getting along in the world very much easier when I've been practicing metta.

Be wary of the labels that you and others use to pinpoint your current state. Like stickers on your fridge, they're easy to apply but a bugger to get off.

Be well
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 12:24:31 PM by floyd »

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
2 Replies
3085 Views
Last post July 08, 2010, 12:51:24 PM
by Marina_J
4 Replies
3092 Views
Last post September 03, 2012, 05:22:58 AM
by dpwell
6 Replies
2814 Views
Last post March 06, 2013, 11:51:33 PM
by Dharmic Tui
5 Replies
7524 Views
Last post October 01, 2013, 04:13:58 PM
by Matthew
2 Replies
1862 Views
Last post November 06, 2013, 11:05:46 PM
by Seph
44 Replies
20620 Views
Last post March 16, 2015, 01:08:04 PM
by Alex
5 Replies
1564 Views
Last post January 10, 2020, 09:01:28 PM
by Matthew