Author Topic: Precious human birth ...  (Read 7747 times)

Dharmic Tui

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2013, 08:43:31 PM »
So I could look within an come up with a convoluted wishy washy story of rebirth to lend significance to, or I could read a basic biology text and understand the process of aging, and eliminate that as a hinderance to my awakening.

Righto.

I have also eliminated all vibrations, and are constantly aware of suffering.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 09:27:56 PM by Dharmic Tui »

redalert

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2013, 09:55:46 PM »
So I could look within an come up with a convoluted wishy washy story of rebirth to lend significance to, or I could read a basic biology text and understand the process of aging, and eliminate that as a hinderance to my awakening.

DT, you can practice any way you wish. If it is working for you that's great. :)

I have also eliminated all vibrations, and are constantly aware of suffering.
Entering the arupas is not advisable for practice that leads to progression on the path, but you do as you like. If this is not the case then we are using the term vibration in a different context.

Dharmic Tui

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2013, 10:24:51 PM »
This all reminds me of that episode of Friends where Joey tries out as a host of the gameshow "bamboozled".

To reach enlightenment, pull a wango tango card and rebirth for 20 mins.

Billymac629

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2013, 12:51:38 PM »
Wow! what a sad thread to have read..  The ignorance (lack of knowledge) being spewed by people about others practices and experiences leads me to believe many on here might need to look at their own practice instead of attacking others..

And on a side note, if your going to use Buddhist terms please do so in the way they were meant to be used.  An "awakened" person is an enlightened person.. The first thing the Buddha said when he was fully enlightened was that he was "awake". That's where Buddhists take the term from.
There are people on the internet (one in particular) that take Buddhist terms like the word arahant, change it's definition, and then claim to be one..   This isn't going to be one of those forums is it?

Maha metta
Nothing in this world is to be clung to as I, me, or mine...

Dharmic Tui

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2013, 02:07:29 PM »
Everything requires context.

Re: awakened, I believe there are many levels or facets to this, my reference relates to the dispersal of dualism. Unlike other members I am extremely happy to be wrong and corrected about this. I am not for a second claiming to be an arahant.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 02:19:11 PM by Dharmic Tui »

Mpgkona

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2013, 05:13:47 PM »
Billy, if you really read the threads you will see that the "attacks" you refer to are not about anyones individual practice or style of meditation. Rather, the "attacks" deal with the blind faith, dogmatic, and belief-based personal VIEWS of some, and are not a critique of practice at all. This is a practice based forum and the devolving of this thread from its original purpose is all about personal views and beliefs about things, spoken either through extreme metaphorical thinking or serious dogmatism. Its about someone pushing their "teachers" agenda and hoping the rest of us drink the kool aid as well.
When you change the way you look at things the things you look at change.

Billymac629

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2013, 06:03:32 PM »
the "attacks" deal with the blind faith, dogmatic, and belief-based personal VIEWS of some, and are not a critique of practice at all. This is a practice based forum and the devolving of this thread from its original purpose is all about personal views and beliefs about things, spoken either through extreme metaphorical thinking or serious dogmatism. 
redalert definitely derailed the thread, however, he was not alone in doing so...    If one doesn't agree with others beliefs thats ok. Just as in meditation it might be good just to note it and move on.. 
Also, unless you've been in another's shoes there is no way one can tell what another's personal experience is. One can only speak of their own.

Everything requires context.

Re: awakened, I believe there are many levels or facets to this, my reference relates to the dispersal of dualism. Unlike other members I am extremely happy to be wrong and corrected about this. I am not for a second claiming to be an arahant.

I didn't think you were claiming ariya  ;)  However it may get confusing for people reading these threads when certain terms are used in conjunction with each other. (i.e. awakened and enlightened)
Nothing in this world is to be clung to as I, me, or mine...

Dharmic Tui

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2013, 06:47:26 PM »
Also, unless you've been in another's shoes there is no way one can tell what another's personal experience is. One can only speak of their own.
While very true, we have to determine if there is a layer of objectivity in practice, or whether it is entirely subjective. Should this be a religion, filled with blind faith, or is it a psychological system? I would argue very strongly for the latter, and that through the course of time (and perhaps at it's genesis) this practice has been clouded by subjective belief and pre-existing ideas and concepts of various eras and gurus.

I'm sure it is potentially possible for an adherent to shroud their practice in all manner of belief, constructs and words, but I can't help but feel that is quite an indirect path that may hinder as much as it helps. In hindsight, I know for myself starting out, a lot of the more culturally specific aspects of Buddhism/Vipassana ended up being extremely irrelevant, and often had me looking in the totally wrong area. Perhaps things needed to unfold that way, but at it's core this is an extremely basic moral and practice system, a system of mental subtraction, rather than addition.

But you are quite right Billy, this is not a place for attacking others' (not that that is my intention), and I have let my own views over what I feel this forum should be about detract from discussion. I withdrew myself from discussion not too long ago over fear of this very eventuality, and I have not heeded my own advice.

Apologies for any distress this may have caused other forum members. I shall be mindful to use my words more skillfully.

redalert

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2013, 12:21:54 AM »

And on a side note, if your going to use Buddhist terms please do so in the way they were meant to be used.  An "awakened" person is an enlightened person.. The first thing the Buddha said when he was fully enlightened was that he was "awake". That's where Buddhists take the term from.

Interesting I did not know that. I use the term fully awakened or fully enlightened to describe an arahant. People who begin walking the path and gain insight are partially awakened or enlightened, prone to falling asleep but have opened their eyes. I see full awakening as a gradual process. Some have much dust in their eyes and some have very little, the veils of ignorance are not as opaque for some.



There are people on the internet (one in particular) that take Buddhist terms like the word arahant, change it's definition, and then claim to be one..   This isn't going to be one of those forums is it?

I can only assume you are referring to Daniel Ingram at Dharma Overground. If you wish to discuss or comment on him then do have the courtesy to use his name and speak openly about your concerns.
I am not a member of that forum but poke around there from time to time. I have not read his book and am not entirely familiar with the terms he uses to describe different attainments. I honestly believe that some over there are taking some common meditative experiences and making them into more. I also feel that Daniel and some members are aware of this, and I believe they have created threads where people can openly admit when they have over stated a claim, in an environment that is free from ridicule and that will allow the individual to get back to work and remain active in the community. I am all for an environment that allows free communication and a healthy expression of experiences.

Whether Daniel is an Arahant or not is only of importance to him. He seems like a guy who has done some serious meditation and wishes to help others on their journey. These are qualities that should be nurtured not ridiculed in my opinion. Old Daniel is all right in my book, and I wish him and those walking the path at Dharma Overground the best success and much metta.

I don't consider myself Buddhist, it is of no importance to me on my journey. Buddhism is split into so many different traditions that it has become a battleground for arguments over this or that nonsense.

I practice the Dhamma(the laws of nature) I speak about my experiences and realizations, not brainwashing from S.N. Goenka. I keep mentioning this, but it seems some do not do not respect this about me. I have realized that I am Nibbana, Nibbana observing all the creation of form. The spiritual world is opening up to me as I have opened my heart to receive its wisdom. Love and acceptance are growing within, but I can still cuss with the boys on a construction site. Am I fully awakened? I can honestly answer NO! I am not. but I am more awake than I have ever been and I have no doubt that I am walking the path. I am actively working to help others receive this teaching that has benefitted me so much, in any way that I can.

 Even though I don't label myself Buddhist, I volunteer my time to repair the monestery where I attend. I am actively involved in sutta discussions and try to create an open environment for discussion of the dhamma. I have a wonderful relationship with the monks and the devotees.

I am aware that I do not express myself in a strictly Buddhist language, and this is because I am open to the teachings of all enlightened beings not just Buddhist monks. I enjoy my practice and my life and only wish to share this with you all, each time I write a post I think this will be the one that allows them to understand where I am coming from.

I hope this forum becomes a place that accepts me as me.

Sorry for derailing the thread, it is not my intention, with practice I am feeling like I am simply BEING human more often.

Matthew

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2013, 05:56:16 PM »

And on a side note, if your going to use Buddhist terms please do so in the way they were meant to be used.  An "awakened" person is an enlightened person.. The first thing the Buddha said when he was fully enlightened was that he was "awake". That's where Buddhists take the term from.

Interesting I did not know that. I use the term fully awakened or fully enlightened to describe an arahant.

Enlightened is accepted usage now yet it's worth remembering it is a bad translation. Awakened is more accurate. An Arahant is fully awake, the same kind of awake as Buddha ("one who is awake"). Only difference is an Arahant needed to meet and learn from a Buddha to get there.

I hope this forum becomes a place that accepts me as me.

.. How about if it teaches "you" that "you" are not what you think?

Sorry for derailing the thread, it is not my intention, with practice I am feeling like I am simply BEING human more often.


Not aimed at you specifically red:

If any forum member finds a topic going "off topic", just hit the report post button and put "going off topic" as the reason - then the staff can take a look and, if it's the case as here, we can split the topic.

Generally if you're going off topic better to quote the bit you're responding to and start a new topic.

We want members to have answers to their questions to consider - separated from the chit chat of different views on buddhist theory
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Dharmic Tui

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2013, 07:32:10 PM »
Not that the labels really matter too much in the scheme of things, but what would you refer to someone who's caught between a layperson and someone who's fully awakened or enlightened? As in, is aware of and can see/feel impermanence, suffering, the sense of non-self, etc etc, but is not yet capable of doing so permanently.

Matthew

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2013, 08:15:32 PM »
Not that the labels really matter too much in the scheme of things, but what would you refer to someone who's caught between a layperson and someone who's fully awakened or enlightened? As in, is aware of and can see/feel impermanence, suffering, the sense of non-self, etc etc, but is not yet capable of doing so permanently.

Someone who is walking the path. Definitions beyond this are motivated by the striving ego, the opposite to someone who is walking the path.
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redalert

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2013, 10:27:46 PM »
I hope this forum becomes a place that accepts me as me.

.. How about if it teaches "you" that "you" are not what you think?


This is clearly understood, I was referring to the impermanent imperfect me, not the ultimate perfected "me".  :)

Matthew

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2013, 03:23:30 AM »
There is no "ultimate perfected 'me'".
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

redalert

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2013, 11:53:21 AM »
There is no "ultimate perfected 'me'".

Yes I know, I was talking about "me". :D


Johann (Hanzze)

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2013, 12:52:10 PM »
Lately, If I don't meditate frequently, I ultimately end up in my old negative patterns.


rebirth as a human being is extremely rare, and precious.

Sadhu!

More difficult is it to rise
    from birth as animal to man,
Than for the turtle blind to see
    the yoke upon the ocean drift;
Therefore, do you being a man
    practice Dhamma and gain its fruits.

— L.K. 59 ("The Letter of Kindheartedness" by Acarya Nagarjuna, in "Wisdom Gone Beyond", Social Service Association Press of Thailand, Phya Thai Road, Bangkok, Siam.)

If you like the Sutta, where this simile with the one eyed turtle was told by the Buddha:

Maha-satipatthana Sutta: The Great Frames of Reference the great discourse on mindfulness.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 12:55:17 PM by Johann (Hanzze) »

redalert

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2013, 09:18:09 PM »
There is no "ultimate perfected 'me'".

Now who says?

Who knows this?

Is this not a faith based religious belief, how is this a belief based on confidence?


Renze

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2013, 02:04:16 PM »
The doctrines of anatta (no-self) and paticcasamuppada (dependent origination) essentially say that the mind is entirely conditioned and that there is no unconditioned mind. I think Theravada Buddhism largely dismisses anatta, I know for instance that Thanissaro Bhikkhu teaches that there is an unconditioned consciousness. This might be because the doctrine of anatta directly contradicts rebirth (if there is no eternal, unconditioned self, then what is reborn?), or maybe it has something to do with the renunciate nature of Theravada?