Author Topic: Precious human birth ...  (Read 8031 times)

redalert

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Precious human birth ...
« on: September 25, 2013, 10:23:12 PM »
Lately, If I don't meditate frequently, I ultimately end up in my old negative patterns.


rebirth as a human being is extremely rare, and precious.

Mpgkona

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2013, 12:50:32 AM »
Red, Im not really sure how your post relates to threads question at all. Also, is  that opinion or is it verifiable?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 02:49:47 AM by Mpgkona »
When you change the way you look at things the things you look at change.

redalert

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2013, 11:32:53 AM »
Red, Im not really sure how your post relates to threads question at all. Also, is  that opinion or is it verifiable?

In one respect we have evolved into human beings, but as human beings we often find ourselves in lofty states of euphoria(no desire to practice) or in deep states of depression (to much pain to practice). It is rare that one is reborn as a human with this unique balance of pleasure and pain where one is capable to practice.

Just observe your current state of mind and when it wanders away where did it go. Remember we are being reborn trillions of times per second. How much more verification does one need?

Dharmic Tui

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2013, 06:57:32 PM »
This would probably be clearer if you didn't speak in metaphors.

Mpgkona

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2013, 07:48:41 PM »
Red, correct me if Im wrong, but you're speaking about the Kalapas that Goenka talks about. However, the word Kalapa does not exist in the suttas. The Curch of LDS guys that solicited my house last week also told me that I'm reborn ever day with a new sunrise. Unfortunately their explanation, and Goenkas explanation are nothing but pure conjecture spoken in metaphors like DT says. And both are based on pure dogma, and are 100% unverifiable.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 10:30:28 PM by Mpgkona »
When you change the way you look at things the things you look at change.

Matthew

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2013, 08:05:49 PM »
Red, Im not really sure how your post relates to threads question at all. Also, is  that opinion or is it verifiable?

In one respect we have evolved into human beings, but as human beings we often find ourselves in lofty states of euphoria(no desire to practice) or in deep states of depression (to much pain to practice). It is rare that one is reborn as a human with this unique balance of pleasure and pain where one is capable to practice.

This is pure dogma. You have no personal experience to support this.

Just observe your current state of mind and when it wanders away where did it go. Remember we are being reborn trillions of times per second. How much more verification does one need?

Again dogma, though actually somewhat accurate. However it has no relevance to the issue of rebirth between lives. You are quoting stuff you read, not stuff you experienced. Get real. There is no relation between moment to moment arising and rebirth.

Kindly,

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Dharmic Tui

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2013, 09:12:01 PM »
I guess it's a rather confused portrayal of impermanence. One thing that tricks a lot of people is the idea that awakening/insight involves some sort of metaphysical magic when it's excruciatingly straightforward. A big hurdle for me to cross was the realisation I wasn't waiting for something magic to happen in a sitting, and instead a deep meditative state is a process you undertake.

redalert

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2013, 10:25:16 PM »
Every time I try to get you all to look at something in a different light your religious backs go up.  :D :D :D

Oh DT you make me laugh, lighten up. Take the starch out of your shirt.

Mpgkona, the theravaden monks at the temple have no issues using the word kalapa, why do you?

Matthew, everything I discuss is from experience, and my understanding of said experience. Its true I may borrow passages from here and there from other authors but it is put together from the experience from my meditative journey. If this forum is all about practice and I discuss from my experience, why am I continually attacked? This forum seems to have a double standard.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 10:55:20 PM by redalert »

Mpgkona

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2013, 10:38:13 PM »
I have no issue with Kalapas Red. But you seem to be distorting their relevance, and you're talking about them the same exact way Goenka does. Im not starting a Goenka thing here. My issue is you quoting him sooooooo much. Seems like blind faith to me, the kind he himself despises. Some of our cells have extremely short time spans and our DNA is replicating itself moment to moment as well. But this too does not prove lifeforms are subject to rebirth.

Even if we are reborn trillions of times a second who really cares? That is so abstract and meaningless in terms of meditative practice. Its an extreme take on anicca, and pretty convoluted.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 10:55:27 PM by Mpgkona »
When you change the way you look at things the things you look at change.

redalert

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2013, 11:15:03 PM »
I have no issue with Kalapas Red.
Yes you do, or you would be fully enlightened, do you even know what a Kalapa is?

But you seem to be distorting their relevance

Not at all.

 
you're talking about them the same exact way Goenka does.

The trillions part I am, and have accepted this as scientific fact. sorry I can't count that fast.

Im not starting a Goenka thing here. My issue is you quoting him sooooooo much. Seems like blind faith to me, the kind he himself despises.

Not at all, I speak from experience, and my experience lines up with what Goenka teaches, I have not found a thing to argue or disagree with. He speaks from experiencial wisdom about the laws of nature, how can one falsify this. All the buddha's teachings are describing the laws of nature. They are describing the path for one to experience their true nature. God, Nibbana, presence, awareness, whatever you want to call it.
Remain equanimous with the sensations, when you perceive that I am quoting Goenka too much. ;)

Some of our cells have extremely short time spans and our DNA is replicating itself moment to moment as well. But this too does not prove lifeforms are subject to rebirth.

If you want proof look within, you will not find this proof in a petri dish.


Mpgkona

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2013, 11:37:05 PM »
Im locking myself out of this thread.
When you change the way you look at things the things you look at change.

redalert

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2013, 11:49:17 PM »
Im locking myself out of this thread.

Afraid to look at some of those words?

Dharmic Tui

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2013, 12:36:00 AM »
Every time I try to get you all to look at something in a different light your religious backs go up.  :D :D :D
You're probably being deliberately obtuse here, but I'm not religious at all, ironically, it is you who are the dogmatic religious one with all the beliefs and views that are completely tangential to awakening.

Not too much starch in my shirt, I just don't have a lot of time for make believe. (edit: Sorry, unless I'm dealing with a child).
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 12:50:48 AM by Dharmic Tui »

redalert

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2013, 12:31:13 PM »
it is you who are the dogmatic religious one with all the beliefs and views that are completely tangential to awakening.

How so? Elaborate please.

Matthew

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2013, 04:00:08 PM »
it is you who are the dogmatic religious one with all the beliefs and views that are completely tangential to awakening.

How so? Elaborate please.

Read your posts and look for yourself dude. You are the most "religious" poster on the forum. That is in the sense if religion as faith, as in belief, not faith as in confidence.
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Mpgkona

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2013, 06:28:42 PM »
Red, you say your experiences line up with everything Goenka says. I would say that you probably have experienced, in your own mind, everything he says, and that my friend is called brainwashed. You cling to his words like white on rice. Your faith in his words blinds and clouds your perspective of things.
I'll admit that his words are powerful and his presence is commanding (for a video teacher). However, he claims to lecture only about natural law, but in reality only a small portion of his stuff is truly based on it.

Red, I am a Goenka "graduate" myself but quite honestly, the more I read your posts the more I can see some of the BS in his teachings that I previously took for fact. You are not a good ambassador for his technique, but I appreciate you opening my eyes. Just like Matthew says, look at your own posts and you will clearly see your dogmatic ways. Or is there no turning back for you? Has Goenkas words seduced you so much that they will forever dominate your destiny?

Yes its a play-on of Yoda but its true.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 06:54:23 PM by Mpgkona »
When you change the way you look at things the things you look at change.

Dharmic Tui

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2013, 08:17:30 PM »
How so? Elaborate please.
The others have pretty much hit it. Religion typically will involve a level of faith - as in, one holds a belief to be true "just because", without a decent amount of supporting evidence and/or reason.

If we take just a sliver of what you've said here as an example.

Remember we are being reborn trillions of times per second. How much more verification does one need?

Here you've made a statement out to be a fact, and one everyone should be already aware of. Are we being born trillions of times a second? How much more verification? - how about any verification - what evidence can you present that this rebirth theory is in any way true? Can it be measured or tested, or at the very least can a plausible theoretical framework be outlaid with which someone can ponder it? And then, if true, how does this then mean something in regards to awakening or the path?

Instead, the bulk of your beliefs are just blurted out like soundbites, you don't seem to be able to elaborate on them and on the surface they sound like things that only make a sliver of sense to someone that's had to sit in on the same sermons as you (and even then just absorbed instead of understood). That sir is an almost perfect display of religious belief. You're not really challenging anything because the bulk of your claims are typically totally without foundation. It would be just as beneficial to say "because pineapples" as a valid counterpoint to other's comments.

What you're doing with your practice obviously is of value for you but from the bulk of your posts I feel it is generally extremely subjective and heavily tied up with ego. You've been possibly reaching pleasant states in your sittings, had these mantras swimming around in your head, tied the physical and emotional feeling of your state with those mantras and given those mantras a great deal of importance and legitimacy. Unfortunately that is not a method of discovery than can produce answers or information for others that they will likely find useful - unless they're also willing to blindly believe something.

Be mindful you don't end up playing the role of affable clown or troll given a lot of your core beliefs here simply won't be accepted by most of the group. It is fine for you if you're mainly here for shits and giggles, and I don't really care either way, but there's other posters on here genuinely seeking information and I can't help but think a lot of your "advice" only confuses instead of helps.

Anyway that's probably a very long diatribe from me. You may take offence at this which I couldn't blame you for, but try and have a serious think about all this, and how you form your beliefs, and what you think others are here for (i.e. are we wanting to adopt beliefs, or are we wanting to develop mindsets - two different things) if you can.

Peace

redalert

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2013, 09:26:06 PM »
My practice is experience based, not faith based. Can I prove this or do I feel the need to? No, I can't, and I don't.

What proof would satisfy? A sutta reference, because these are excepted as gospel truth? If I quoted one you would only say that I am twisting or distorting it. Bottom line is you do not accept these truths, and that is OK. It is also not necessary that you all stop calling me a troll(perhaps I should change the avatar :)) and accept me at face value as a fellow brother on the path. But it would be nice.

Perhaps you are playing rough in the sandbox as a form of practice. ;) It is if you notice the same group of you who speak out so often against what I have to say, and none of you practice this technique. Hmmm suspicious.

Matthew seems to want to distance himself from Goenka students and has for some time looking back in previous threads. Again suspicious :)

I have come to the conclusion that your intentions are not honorable, and I do not accept your words as, for my benefit. This I conclude from PM's and past communication.


Dharmic Tui

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2013, 10:43:41 PM »
My practice is experience based, not faith based.
As I have said, its seems likely you are tying the two together, the one justifying the other to you.

Perhaps to illustrate, this morning I was in quite a deep state in my meditation, my body convulsed calmly a few times, I've experienced something similar in the past, but this was particularly strong in it's intensity in my body. What can I draw from that? If I went into my meditation thinking I'm reborn thousands of times a second, I could tell myself that was me picking up on that. Maybe if I was really into souls and spirits, I could take those convulses as someone else's spirit entering my body, or my own leaving. If I were a Christian, I could tell myself that's God communicating directly to me, without words.

My point here is I could attribute all sorts of belief and assumption to this experience, and to me they'd be true, but to anyone else, it'd be bupkiss. A more rational explanation could be that as my sitting progressed I managed to cast off more and more of my thinking, doing mind, and entered a state of bare attention or awareness. It's a little bit clinical perhaps, but it's at least explainable and does have some sort of grounding in observable, objective sciences.

What proof would satisfy? A sutta reference, because these are excepted as gospel truth?
I have mentioned several times that I am a secular Buddhist. I am not going to counter your magical claims with other magical claims. I find the suttas useful as a framework for a practice, but I am also capable of identifying a great many of the mythology contained within as being highly metaphorical.

This is probably the biggest hurdle between you and I in terms of forming bi-directional dialogue. You seem to think I'm defending the belief component of the suttas, fables and beliefs like the stories of mara, claims of reincarnation, etc etc etc, and that your beliefs are just as valid. I'm not arguing for those at all really, I am instead sticking to the cold hard facts of practice and the method by which one becomes enlightened, or at lease awake/aware.
Perhaps you are playing rough in the sandbox as a form of practice. ;) It is if you notice the same group of you who speak out so often against what I have to say, and none of you practice this technique.
Again, a huge component of what you are espousing is not technique, it is belief. You are enveloping a technique with a whole bunch of meaningless (at least to anyone that's not you) mantra.
  have come to the conclusion that your intentions are not honorable, and I do not accept your words as, for my benefit. This I conclude from PM's and past communication.
That would depend what intentions we are talking about. If you expect me to validate all of your assumptions, then no, I am of little use to you. If you wish to have a discourse about a path to enlightenment and a freedom from your ego and thoughts, then I believe I have some useful input, it's just probably not so easy for people clinging to beliefs to digest.

All I can really do is give my word I have no vested interest in these debates other than to perhaps aid you in perhaps identifying the issues surrounding magical thinking or a lack of skepticism. There is no benefit to me and how I feel in countering your claims, if anything it is a hindrance in my own path. Perhaps I shall leave it at that, I don't think this is the time for you to digest this objectively and there's not many other ways I can think of to convey this to you.

EDIT: Also I'm not really sure what PMs you are talking about, I've sent you one ever in response to yours and I was civil.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 11:00:06 PM by Dharmic Tui »

redalert

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2013, 12:02:55 AM »

 I am instead sticking to the cold hard facts of practice and the method by which one becomes enlightened, or at lease awake/aware.

Explain! You said you are not enlightened in a past thread, so you know nothing of what you speak! According to your statement you are not awakened at all.
Who's the Guru your following DT, how did you learn this incredible practice that has not led you to any level of awakening.

 Again, a huge component of what you are espousing is not technique, it is belief. You are enveloping a technique with a whole bunch of meaningless (at least to anyone that's not you) mantra.
By technique, I simply meant the Goenka organisation.
 

That would depend what intentions we are talking about. If you expect me to validate all of your assumptions, then no, I am of little use to you. If you wish to have a discourse about a path to enlightenment and a freedom from your ego and thoughts, then I believe I have some useful input, it's just probably not so easy for people clinging to beliefs to digest.

You do not have to validate them, their importance is obviously of little value to you DT. But as I have said contemplation is beneficial to my practice at times as is throwing around and discussing different ideas. Again I thought this was about meditation practice on this forum, OR is it about one practice that you and Matthew happen to share the same opinions about? You have clearly stated that your practice has not resulted in any form of enlightenment, so why are you so closed towards my practice methods?

  All I can really do is give my word I have no vested interest in these debates other than to perhaps aid you in perhaps identifying the issues surrounding magical thinking or a lack of skepticism.
Laws of nature, not magic and again my practice is not merely about knowledge it is experience based. But you choose not to accept this, you should simply remain out of the threads I start instead of derailing them.


There is no benefit to me and how I feel in countering your claims, if anything it is a hindrance in my own path.

With your practice, this is the conclusion I have come to and already expressed to you. I have no idea why you are at this forum or any forum unless it is to get the jagged bits knocked off in the sandbox. This is stimulation and is counterproductive to your practice. Go and sit and wake up at least a little, then when you come back we can talk about "something". :)

  Perhaps I shall leave it at that, I don't think this is the time for you to digest this objectively and there's not many other ways I can think of to convey this to you.
You are trying to convince me that your way is right and my way is wrong. Let it go man.

EDIT: Also I'm not really sure what PMs you are talking about, I've sent you one ever in response to yours and I was civil.
Sorry my post was not entirely directed towards you. :)

redalert

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2013, 12:08:18 AM »
Red, you say your experiences line up with everything Goenka says. I would say that you probably have experienced, in your own mind, everything he says, and that my friend is called brainwashed.
Everything is mind created, you don't know what your talking about? What is reality?


Mpgkona

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2013, 12:18:19 AM »
Here we go again!! What is reality? You really are on a different plain.

BTW Red you didnt start this thread. And YOU are the one who derailed it with your reply about rebirth, which had absolutely nothing to do with the original posters question. Wow!!!!!

« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 12:21:46 AM by Mpgkona »
When you change the way you look at things the things you look at change.

redalert

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2013, 12:29:54 AM »
BTW Red you didnt start this thread. And YOU are the one who derailed it with your reply about rebirth, which had absolutely nothing to do with the original posters question. Wow!!!!!

My original reply has everything to do with the op's thread, you all just chose to dismiss it rather than discuss it, and look where we end up back in the sandbox again.
Oh well, this is where the work must be done. :)

P.S. Loka's a highly advanced being and rarely responds to his original questions, I think he just asks them so we can benefit. ;)
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 12:34:44 AM by redalert »

Dharmic Tui

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2013, 05:25:38 AM »
Explain! You said you are not enlightened in a past thread, so you know nothing of what you speak! According to your statement you are not awakened at all.
I don't profess to have reached a state of Nibbana which I feel is synonymous with enlightenment (again, we can quibble terms if we want, don't really care), which would be a more permanent state, however I do feel I am awakened. I am capable of reaching states of extreme awareness, where things like vibrations and rebirths and any other attempt to measure my state is totally and utterly irrelevant, and a hindrance.

Practice for you appears to involve (note "involve", I am sure there are other facets to your practice) needing answers, and trying to define the undefinable.
Who's the Guru your following DT, how did you learn this incredible practice that has not led you to any level of awakening.
I follow no guru, as I said in the past I taste from a wide pallet of sources. From that I have managed to filter out the subjective and irrelevant, and take onboard more universal truths about the practice, awakening and enlightenment. I believe I have all the ingredients for enlightenment, the remaining barrier is merely myself.
Again I thought this was about meditation practice on this forum, OR is it about one practice that you and Matthew happen to share the same opinions about?
Matthew and I share the same "opinions" because I suspect Matthew has managed to attain similar levels of awakening as myself. He does appear to be more versed in the suttas than myself and probably finds a lot more importance in them, as to his worldview in general, I can't really comment, I don't know him and the details of his life.
You have clearly stated that your practice has not resulted in any form of enlightenment, so why are you so closed towards my practice methods?
Because I feel I'm awakened, moving towards enlightenment, and the conclusions you draw and the beliefs you subscribe to don't feel like they have a place in enlightenment. At no point in the evolution of my practice have I reached a point where I've felt I need more information to add to what I'm doing, on the contrary, that evolution has coincided with the subsiding of a need to make sense of things.

The ONLY way I'd reach the same conclusions as you through regular meditation practice would be if someone else put those ideas and thoughts there before I started. They are not self evident.
Laws of nature, not magic
Actual laws of nature can be substantiated. Evolution can be substantiated. Photosynthesis can be substantiated. Gravity, tides and the weather can be substantiated. Huge amounts of rebirths per second doesn't appear to have any substantive evidence behind it, therefore I can only view it as pure conjecture based on magical thinking - unless of course you can present a case that involves more than us taking your word on it.

You are trying to convince me that your way is right and my way is wrong. Let it go man.
I have, our discourse is beyond anything useful I think, when things get to this point it becomes a case of digging in and defending your position to the bitter end.

I am extremely open minded. My life has been a succession of sea-changes, flipping my thoughts and preconceptions on it's head. I do however require quite a convincing argument to change my views or adopt others', so making statements without offering a very compelling supporting argument is going to be met with a degree of resistance.

Anyway, this sideshow of ours is probably amusing for some, but highly distracting for others. Knock yourself out.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 05:35:01 AM by Dharmic Tui »

redalert

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Re: Precious human birth ...
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2013, 01:01:35 PM »
Because I feel I'm awakened, moving towards enlightenment,

Yes, you are awakening from the constant craving for sensual pleasures, you are becoming more human. You are finding that you are being reborn into a plane of existence where you have this delicate balance between pain and pleasure which allows you to view them with equiminity. Were you always this way? Or have you been ignorant towards suffering in the past? As you are not fully awakened you are still not continuously aware of suffering, understand to me suffering includes any plane of existence reached through meditation, no matter how subtle. Any vibration is suffering, it is not at rest.

If "you" have not glimpsed Nibbana, then you have not experienced the ultimate truth. And are still subject to rebirth in the lower planes where one cannot practice or may walk away from their practice. You may also be reborn in very pleasant planes where you may become blinded by pleasure, again you cannot practice.

There are two forces in the universe:

One force is pushing you further away from Nibbana constantly evolving, constantly being reborn, constantly changing.

Proof: Look in the mirror, and then look at a picture of when you were a baby. Do you look the same or have you evolved. Changing trillions of times per second not detectible by the human eye.

The second force is subtler and is saying come home, but requires one to go against the current of becoming. Birth as a human being is precious it allows one to swim against the stream of becoming and experience the ultimate truth.

Proof: Look in the mirror and see for yourself.



The ONLY way I'd reach the same conclusions as you through regular meditation practice would be if someone else put those ideas and thoughts there before I started. They are not self evident.
Again, stop worrying and judging my practice, it works for me.


Actual laws of nature can be substantiated. Evolution can be substantiated. Photosynthesis can be substantiated. Gravity, tides and the weather can be substantiated. Huge amounts of rebirths per second doesn't appear to have any substantive evidence behind it, therefore I can only view it as pure conjecture based on magical thinking - unless of course you can present a case that involves more than us taking your word on it.
No answer will satisfy you, you must look within and answer your questions.


I have, our discourse is beyond anything useful I think, when things get to this point it becomes a case of digging in and defending your position to the bitter end.
And what exactly is "your position" in the universe? Is it permanent or is it subject to change.

I am extremely open minded.
You do not appear to be, there are some walls preventing you from letting go.


 My life has been a succession of sea-changes, flipping my thoughts and preconceptions on it's head. I do however require quite a convincing argument to change my views or adopt others', so making statements without offering a very compelling supporting argument is going to be met with a degree of resistance.
This you will find looking within not from my words or any others.

Anyway, this sideshow of ours is probably amusing for some, but highly distracting for others. Knock yourself out.
Already did :)

 

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