Author Topic: Earth, water, air, fire?  (Read 20637 times)

Dharmic Tui

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Re: Earth, water, air, fire?
« Reply #75 on: October 18, 2013, 01:55:55 AM »
I like the term "awareness without content".

redalert

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Re: Earth, water, air, fire?
« Reply #76 on: October 18, 2013, 06:44:33 PM »
By day to day I was referring to ordinary life in a practical sense. It is one thing to gain insight or tranquillity in a highly idealised environment, it is another to accomplish it while your regular life is happening. Unless of course you're a monk :D

I just find that the work done on retreat is like going in for a deep cleaning at the dentist, and work done at home in day to day life is more like brushing ones teeth, removing the surface plaque that accumulates daily. The continuity of practice is broken with lifes mundane tasks, the deep defilements can remain buried and go unnoticed. The deep stuff that surfaces during retreat one can use their daily practice to slowly brush it away.

ramat

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Re: Earth, water, air, fire?
« Reply #77 on: October 18, 2013, 07:04:48 PM »
Reply to Red Questions:
I think what they mean is :
Prakruti is the   base of all material manifestation.
Life is play of consciousness and matter. Our body is matter  created sustained by consciousness.
Source of all is Ultimate Reality or call it GOD, the goal of all.

As per my understanding with Meditation we try to go beyond matter and see our original nature and source. Becoming subtler and lighter everyday is the way to progress.

redalert

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Re: Earth, water, air, fire?
« Reply #78 on: October 19, 2013, 08:30:14 PM »

As per my understanding with Meditation we try to go beyond matter and see our original nature and source. Becoming subtler and lighter everyday is the way to progress.

I have found that my practice especially during retreats and especially when I first started with meditation, is that this feeling of lightness would not last long and would bring up much buried pain for me to observe. Simply observing these often burning and unpleasant earthy feelings would release them, and this process would then repeat.

In one sense I am becoming lighter and lighter each day, but it may not feel this way when one of those sleeping volcanoes erupts, I think this is an important point for those beginning and walking along their meditative journey to understand, all states are impermanent, and subject to sudden change. It is not a linear progress from earthy to airy to space and beyond. There can be much fire within that needs to slowly come to the surface and fizzle out, this is why one is fortunate to have pain during meditation it is the fire coming to the surface to fizzle out.

ramat

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Re: Earth, water, air, fire?
« Reply #79 on: October 21, 2013, 10:39:36 PM »
"one is fortunate to have pain during meditation". This is a great truth. If one can observe the state after pain is gone then one can understand that pain is actually throwing about some disease.

This unfolding can be done only in meditation or also during contemplations , discussions..?

redalert

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Re: Earth, water, air, fire?
« Reply #80 on: December 19, 2013, 08:27:18 PM »
I don't have to contemplate and dwell on things like this. I used to, but no longer.

It seems that one may develop absorption Samadhi and then expand insight practice, but often as laypersons with limited time, we may have to begin wisdom practice with the level of concentration available to us, and this may not be of the absorption type.

This can mean a bumpy ride and I feel that when some mental formations come into view, attempting to see these four basic elements can be helpful. I remember initially I labelled unpleasant as pain and that was it. Usually shortly after this pain came into view I began suffering intensely, and it was not long before I broke posture and ended my session. Also off the cushion when pain came along I would look for the advil or some other distraction. I know that when this apparent unpleasantness comes into view some go back to concentration practices, visualisations or mantra or counting breaths.

As this is a forum with the emphasis on practice, I am letting you know that I have found this helpful in the past as a way of staying with the apparent unpleasantness for a few more moments, and those few extra moments at times were all that it took for that apparent pain to begin to break apart and mind would let go.

Even you DT used this practice starting out, if it worked then why would it not work for some now?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 08:58:16 PM by redalert »

Dharmic Tui

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Re: Earth, water, air, fire?
« Reply #81 on: December 20, 2013, 10:32:44 AM »
It didn't really work in a lasting sense though, and I can see now how trying to rationalise things in such a way is inherently flawed. It's like thinking hybrids are the solution to the ills of internal combustion engines when you should be bicycling or maybe not going anywhere at all.

redalert

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Re: Earth, water, air, fire?
« Reply #82 on: December 20, 2013, 05:00:19 PM »
I agree that it is a gross form of meditation but it has been helpful to me.

What does an orange taste like?

Dharmic Tui

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Re: Earth, water, air, fire?
« Reply #83 on: December 20, 2013, 07:03:44 PM »
It tastes orangey. Experiencing the orange is infinitely more profound that describing it.

redalert

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Re: Earth, water, air, fire?
« Reply #84 on: December 20, 2013, 08:44:03 PM »
What did the orange peel taste like?  :)

Do you notice a difference between the experience of peel, seeds, pulp and juice?

Dharmic Tui

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Re: Earth, water, air, fire?
« Reply #85 on: December 20, 2013, 09:43:44 PM »
Generally no. As soon as you start breaking things down like that you're not mindful of the experience you're mindful of the words.

redalert

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Re: Earth, water, air, fire?
« Reply #86 on: December 21, 2013, 12:14:25 AM »
Well I grabbed an orange, sat down, quiet and still, lights dim, eyes closed. Reaching for the orange there is awareness of grosser feelings in the arm, touching the orange, feelings of cold more solidity. Placing the cold orange slice in my mouth, the subtle warm airy sensations changed to colder more solidified, the contact of the juice on the tongue produced very fast moving fluid sensations and this lasted but a moment and was gone, the pulp was chewy and was slower it clung to the tongue on the sides, but soon passed away, the peel was still earthier grosser and seemed to cling to the tongue for some time there was a film of fuzzy vibrations for awhile and this produced some heat.

All in all an orange tastes like changing.

 I believe this is a good practice for eating, would this not constitute mindful eating? I've noticed in the past that when the family is having dinner together my focus is more extraverted and often there is much eating done without awareness of this level of sensation.

I am aware that thinking is going on during this meditation, does this have to be problematic?

Dharmic Tui

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Re: Earth, water, air, fire?
« Reply #87 on: December 21, 2013, 02:08:57 AM »
For me mindful eating would be eating in the absence of other thought, including thinking about the sensations of eating.

Pacific Flow

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Re: Earth, water, air, fire?
« Reply #88 on: December 21, 2013, 02:37:01 AM »
Does that mean you would consider awareness of sensations an unmindful state as long as there are also thoughts?

Dharmic Tui

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Re: Earth, water, air, fire?
« Reply #89 on: December 21, 2013, 09:35:21 AM »
I would say the thoughts hinder awareness.

redalert

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Re: Earth, water, air, fire?
« Reply #90 on: December 21, 2013, 03:24:27 PM »
For me mindful eating would be eating in the absence of other thought, including thinking about the sensations of eating.

But because we ate with wisdom the experience is not merely intellectual.


Dharmic Tui

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Re: Earth, water, air, fire?
« Reply #91 on: December 21, 2013, 08:46:37 PM »
But thinking about it and labelling it is intellectualising it. It has interfered with the wisdom.

redalert

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Re: Earth, water, air, fire?
« Reply #92 on: December 21, 2013, 09:57:09 PM »
But thinking about it and labelling it is intellectualising it. It has interfered with the wisdom.
Yes in an ultimate reality way, no in an apparent reality way.

Intense in awareness, with wisdom, of arising and passing, direct experience of bodily sensations. Attention moving from the here/now to the then/there, faithfully we recall the experience. This is possible because awareness was there and known. Conscious awareness (Nibbana).



Dharmic Tui

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Re: Earth, water, air, fire?
« Reply #93 on: December 21, 2013, 11:03:09 PM »
Yes in an ultimarte reality way, no in an apparent reality way.
I guess that is the distinction between the locus of our attention.

redalert

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Re: Earth, water, air, fire?
« Reply #94 on: December 22, 2013, 12:28:17 AM »
It is a habit to come out of.  ;)

 

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