Vipassana: Buddha style, U Ba Khin style and Goenka style

[Dharmic Tui]

You cannot understand awareness, you are awareness.

That's right, you can't understand awareness, just as awareness isn't derived from learning a method. However as was laid out in that rather elegant post of Quardamon's, full awareness very likely involves a degree of understanding or comprehension (aided by action) of the noble eightfold path. What you may attain by sticking to only a fraction of that path I couldn't say. Maybe you can shortcut your way to Nibbana, although having dipped my toes into all elements of the path it would appear full enlightment does seem to require a level of holism.

[Quardamon]

What are you talking about?

A bit of Google and logic would help with understanding the post of Mpgkona.

The first and the last line connect:
I hope that was sarcasm Red. If not, insisting that those people that have zero access to the Dhamma because of their kamma constitutes "wrong view," and is a comment an elitist would make. Wrong speech as well.

Google tells, that UFMIP is Up Front Mortgage Insurance Premium. So it is about paying for your house.
FHA is Federal Housing Administration.
Some people need to choose between paying the rent or paying a meditation course.

[redalert]

full awareness very likely involves a degree of understanding or comprehension (aided by action) of the noble eightfold path.

If we are talking of the same "thing", "it" does not. The action is non-action, let everything gradually fall away. Training is required for this to occur.

 What you may attain by sticking to only a fraction of that path I couldn't say.

Again, if you have doubt of this method, go sit a course. I feel the experience of the retreat may change your opinion.

[Dharmic Tui]

If we are talking of the same "thing", "it" does not. The action is non-action, let everything gradually fall away. Training is required for this to occur.

We're sort of going in circles here. Would it be fair to say our views are (simply) as thus:

redalert: Train and practice in meditation, and one will naturally become aware

DT: Train and practice in meditation, learn, understand and live the eightfold path, and through this one will become aware

I don't need to do a Goenka course because I am already doing roughly the same thing, I am just also learning and enacting an additional component to coincide with that. I guess you could mount an argument me engaging with the eightfold path somehow distracts me from some sort of more pure awareness available through the Goenka tradition. I'm just going to have to take that risk because I view this path more as a total approach (so involving actions, practices, views, etc) to life rather than an activity I do over here with the rest of life separate over there.

[redalert]

The first and the last line connect:
I hope that was sarcasm Red. If not, insisting that those people that have zero access to the Dhamma because of their kamma constitutes "wrong view," and is a comment an elitist would make. Wrong speech as well.

Thanks Q, I thought it was something to do with money, but was unsure.

I have a house, a mortgage, children, wife, responsibilities. All of this comes with me to each course I sit, you cannot hide from these things, you must face them. I have all of this due to my past action(karma), this is neither good nor bad it is simply my current situation. If I view these things as a burden then I suffer. If I cling to heavily to these things I become a prisoner.

I'm currently signed up to sit a long course this fall, the moment I signed up for the course my wife and I began sitting the course, all the "stuff" financial, doubts(am I being selfish), job responsibilities, household responsibilities, etc...... come to the surface and you must observe them or become them.

So, my answer stands Karma. It is not impossible, sign up and go. I've already paid for someone to sit their course.

[Mpgkona]

Sorry. I think my comp was hacked or something. Changing password. Will respond later. Weird!!!

[redalert]

Would it be fair to say our views are (simply) as thus:

redalert: Train and practice in meditation, and one will naturally become aware

DT: Train and practice in meditation, learn, understand and live the eightfold path, and through this one will become aware

No, it would not.

You will never become aware, you are aware. Nibbana is not something to chase, "it" is in each and every one of us.

Redalert:  Observe morality scrupulously, develop concentration, enter and abide in the field of experiential wisdom. Develop ones paramitas, realize Nibbana.

I don't need to do a Goenka course because I am already doing roughly the same thing, I am just also learning and enacting an additional component to coincide with that. I guess you could mount an argument me engaging with the eightfold path somehow distracts me from some sort of more pure awareness available through the Goenka tradition. I'm just going to have to take that risk because I view this path more as a total approach (so involving actions, practices, views, etc) to life rather than an activity I do over here with the rest of life separate over there.

You are confused, and do not understand this method. You are doing nothing additional.

[Matthew]

full awareness very likely involves a degree of understanding or comprehension (aided by action) of the noble eightfold path.

If we are talking of the same "thing", "it" does not. The action is non-action, let everything gradually fall away. Training is required for this to occur.

Riddle me this riddler: what 'non-action' is there in training? Training is action: a verb. The root of non action is action, only at subtle levels of meditation does the shift to non-action occur.

You are confused, and do not understand this method. You are doing nothing additional.

The method is confused. It makes a lot of people confused, you're not alone.

[redalert]

The method is confused.

Nope. 

[Dharmic Tui]

You will never become aware, you are aware. Nibbana is not something to chase, "it" is in each and every one of us.

Instant Karma aye? Sounds frickin sweet.

  Redalert:  Observe morality scrupulously, develop concentration, enter and abide in the field of experiential wisdom. Develop ones paramitas, realize Nibbana.

Ok that’s sorta what I wrote but fleshed out a bit. No where in there is an understanding and acceptance of the eightfold path.

You are confused, and do not understand this method. You are doing nothing additional.

If you say so, I guess. Maybe as another analogy; say we are discussing the mastery of soccer. You are saying “learn and master ball skills, practice them long enough, and one will become David Beckham”. I am saying “Learn and master ball skills, develop an understanding of the rules and learn to act as a member over a coherent team, and one might become David Beckham”.

How things work for me, is I do the practice (which seems eerily similar to the crux of Goenka, still yet to see much difference), and then with that I am developing an understanding of the nature of things as they are, the interplay and separation of individual and reality, the causes of attachment and aversion, how to act with other beings, and a whole bunch of other stuff. Both of those two components link into each other for me – my practice benefits from increase knowledge and understanding, and my knowledge and understanding benefits from the experiential and mental aspects of my practice. What you’re trying to convince me is that understanding somehow negatively impacts my practice, and that my practice which has improved off the back of that understanding would somehow be better if I removed that understanding from it.

I am somewhat sceptical.

[redalert]

Ok that’s sorta what I wrote but fleshed out a bit. No where in there is an understanding and acceptance of the eightfold path.

Sila, Samadhi, panna make up the eight fold path. I don't see the confusion or difference you are hinting towards.

 

How things work for me, is I do the practice (which seems eerily similar to the crux of Goenka, still yet to see much difference)

I have never argued that you are not practicing the Dhamma DT, you and Matthew seem to have a strong aversion to this method, I have agreed that it is not for everyone but it is Dhamma.

What you’re trying to convince me is that understanding somehow negatively impacts my practice, and that my practice which has improved off the back of that understanding would somehow be better if I removed that understanding from it.

Not at all. Theoretical knowledge and practical experience go hand in hand, you can only truly know what is experienced. Otherwise it is a faith based practice.
Not to say there is no faith involved, but it's not completely blind. We come to trust a teacher and accept their guidance.

[Dharmic Tui]

Sila, Samadhi, panna make up the eight fold path. I don't see the confusion or difference you are hinting towards.

Earlier you had hinted only at panna, and a great deal of your posts seem to focus mainly on that, but I see you are now including the other two also. Sorry, sometimes it's hard to decipher your posts. So a Goenka course would spend an equal amount of time talking to all 3 of those divisions?

[Mpgkona]

Red, earlier you seemed to allude to the fact you think people that can't access the Dhamma (the poor and the people who's only concern is where their next meal is going to come from) are in this condition (not being able to acces Dhamma) because of their karma. If you really believe this and you weren't being sarcastic, well that is a very elitist way of thinking, and contrary to Dhamma. I would suggest that constitutes wrong speech and wrong thought. That, combined by your F word earlier on would mean you broke 3 parts of the eightfold today. For real though, if access to the Dhamma is based on ones karma I would jump off this path in a heartbeat. Dhamma is and should be for everyone. Not those that have the money to afford it.

[Dharmic Tui]

Just as God doesn't need fancy temples of gold I imagine Nibbana doesn't need expensive courses.

[redalert]

So a Goenka course would spend an equal amount of time talking to all 3 of those divisions?

From the gates one is to observe 7 precepts, old students do not eat after noon so they follow 8 precepts. An old student is someone who has completed a 10 day course with Mr. Goenka or an assistant teacher.(sila)

Roughly one third of the course is spent on Samadhi, 3 1/2 days on a 10 day, 6 days on a 20, 10 days on a 30, etc... One is to maintain awareness of breathing in the area at the base of the nostrils and above the upper lip. (mastery of the mind,Samadhi)

Remainder is spent in the body observing sensations(field of panna)

The last day is metta day to help adjust back to the world.

[redalert]

Red, earlier you seemed to allude to the fact you think people that can't access the Dhamma (the poor and the people who's only concern is where their next meal is going to come from) are in this condition (not being able to acces Dhamma) because of their karma. If you really believe this and you weren't being sarcastic, well that is a very elitist way of thinking, and contrary to Dhamma. I would suggest that constitutes wrong speech and wrong thought. That, combined by your F word earlier on would mean you broke 3 parts of the eightfold today. For real though, if access to the Dhamma is based on ones karma I would jump off this path in a heartbeat. Dhamma is and should be for everyone. Not those that have the money to afford it.

I guess this comes down to our definition and understanding of Karma, but I did not allude to the dhamma being only available to those who can afford it, it must be offered freely to all.  No elitisms.

About the letter F, who are you the dhamma police. 

[Dharmic Tui]

From the gates one is to observe 7 precepts, old students do not eat after noon so they follow 8 precepts.

So what are these additional precepts (usually there's only 5).

Roughly one third of the course is spent on Samadhi, 3 1/2 days on a 10 day, 6 days on a 20, 10 days on a 30, etc... One is to maintain awareness of breathing in the area at the base of the nostrils and above the upper lip. (mastery of the mind,Samadhi)

Remainder is spent in the body observing sensations(field of panna)

An interesting take on those two divisions.

The last day is metta day to help adjust back to the world.

Hehe, good thing they slip that bit in at the end.

[Mpgkona]

Yes it is absolutely offered freely to all. But it should read "freely to all who can afford ($$$) to walk away from their lives for 11 days.

Somebody has gotta be the Dhamma police around here. JK, it was said in jest.

[DarkNightOfNoSoul]

Yes it is absolutely offered freely to all. But it should read "freely to all who can afford ($$$) to walk away from their lives for 11 days.

I'm not sure what your point is with this line of argument. It's certainly not a valid criticism of Goenka's courses in particular, as the same goes for ANY meditation retreat.

Who are these extremely time-poor people? Certainly not the unemployed, so I assume you mean those with no paid vacation and too many family commitments, etc. I'd suggest that if these individuals put a high enough value on a retreat, they'll somehow find the time to attend. If not sooner then later - life is constantly changing, so the opportunity will probably eventually arise.

If they don't get the opportunity, then it's hardly a drama anyway, as it doesn't stop them from learning dhamma elsewhere and establishing a daily practice. It just means they don't benefit from the additional intensity offered by a decent meditation course.

[DarkNightOfNoSoul]

From the gates one is to observe 7 precepts, old students do not eat after noon so they follow 8 precepts.

So what are these additional precepts (usually there's only 5).

New students follow the five lay precepts and old students follow eight precepts:

http://www.dhamma.org/en/code.shtml

The 8 precepts are common in other meditation courses as well as Goenka's (and on Uposatha days in south-east Asia). See for example:

http://www.fivethousandyears.org/rule-meditators.html
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=8_precepts

DT I enjoy your posts; you have a lot of experience-based wisdom to offer and I've learned a lot from you. But in this debate I think you need to arm yourself with a more complete knowledge of Goenka's courses before launching into criticisms of them! No offence meant. I should add that I'm not particularly attached to Goenka's courses myself, I'm currently checking out other traditions because I find them too repetitive and find the teachers a bit inaccessible.

[Dharmic Tui]

No offence taken. When dealing with a specific religion or belief, I prefer to talk to it's adherents rather than the texts, because it gives a better understanding of the result of the religion. I learn more talking to a Muslim or a Christian than I do just being fed information from the Koran or Bible.

[redalert]

Somebody has gotta be the Dhamma police around here. JK, it was said in jest.

I know, that's why I gave you a kiss.

[redalert]

New students follow the five lay precepts and old students follow eight precepts:

This may be different in other centres, but do not all beds in the centres meet requirements, and people are asked to dress moderately and not where makeup or perfumes or other types of decoration. No literature or other distractions are allowed eg: cell phones, pictures, porn mags, writing utensils, etc...

[redalert]

So what are these additional precepts (usually there's only 5).

DNONS answered this nicely.

An interesting take on those two divisions.

It is quite effective, but I realize these are not split in other traditions.

Hehe, good thing they slip that bit in at the end.

Metta is taught as a separate practice on day 10. But one must develop the paramita of metta, and this is done often during a course and throughout our lives.