Jhanas and the stages of the path

[redalert]

I've clipped this from another thread, as not to derail that topic.
 

i don't want to start a Goenka vs Shamatha war, but I must say that the suttas (even the one at the Goenkaji centres) mention the Buddha repeatedly stressing the need to develop Jhanas, and I don't see how the body scanning can help one develop them (atleast at the beginner stage)

I would like to pose the question do you think developement of jhanas is necessary for stream entry?

Goenka says open the heavenly gates within(I interpret this as stream entry), then unlock the brahmic plane within(developement of jhanas,possibly once returner),  and finally attain nibbanic peace within. (non returner/arahant)

If I interpret this correctly cultivation of jhanas is not necessary to reach the stage of stream entry. It would be necessary to develope them to reach the stage of non-returner or arahant.

[siddharthgode]

Goenka says open the heavenly gates within(I interpret this as stream entry), then unlock the brahmic plane within(developement of jhanas,possibly once returner),  and finally attain nibbanic peace within. (non returner/arahant)

I think thats a lot of interpretation that you are making which might be wrong.

[redalert]

You did not answer the question.

but might be right!!! 

[garyblackhouse]

What do Jhanas feel like? Can they be described with words? And what are their significance?

[Masauwu]

This is my favorite "jhana in plain english" guide about the subject, from one of Upasaka Culadasa's retreats (more info and q&a on that site). It has detailed explanations about what the process is, what is the psychological significance, what are its types and levels of depth.

From experience i couldn't say much, i think i've only touched some form of light jhana briefly a few months ago after a couple of weeks of decent shamatha practice (2h/day); it was a state of calm and effortless concentration, there was only the watching of the breath without anything disturbing it (in contrast, my mind was wandering a lot when i started that practice 2 weeks prior). My practice then resumed its usual 20-30 minutes / day routine and i couldn't get to a deep state after that. I would say reaching jhana is not complicated and it's very beneficial, but the key ingredient is diligence.

[Dharmic Tui]

What do Jhanas feel like? Can they be described with words? And what are their significance?

This is the problem with this faith/belief system (and most faiths). We try to label things to make sense of them, when often the understanding is beyond words. So we have all these books trying to make sense of stream entry and Jhanas. Personally I think we're better abandoning all those concepts and just practice and see where it takes you.

To get specific with your question, I'm probably similar to Masauwu in interpretation. I've become more and more adept at vanishing - my thoughts and bodily sensations disappear, and there is only breath awareness. And then that begins to fade also. Letting go is the key, stop trying to go anywhere or do anything. Once you obtain these states, it becomes easier to replicate and hone them.

This Dharma talk by Ajahn Brahm on vanishing may be of benefit to you.

http://www.ceylonoutsourcing.com/dhamma/AB/RTRT11/04%20Vanishing.mp3

[redalert]

From Goenka Satipatthana discourse:

"When all the sankharas which would have taken you to a lower field of life are gone, the mind becomes perfectly balanced-fit to transcend the field of mind and matter and gain the first glimpse of nibbana.
 
This may be for a few moments, seconds or minutes, but on returning to the field of mind and matter the meditator's behavior pattern is totally changed. A sankhara of the lower fields cannot now be generated. The clan is changed-gotrabhu. The anariyo becomes a sotapanna"


This seems to indicate that the frution process just happens(supramundane jhanas just arise) when the meditator is ripe. Also this clearly states that the meditator(no I involved) experiences nibanna and upon return is sotapanna, not a non-returner or arahant.

What are your thoughts on this?

[garyblackhouse]

Thanks for your feedback on my post. Helpful as usual. 

I will have a read of the other thread too. Shamatha practice is one that interests me. Most of my sittings are based around Vipassana bodyscan. In between scans which could take anything from 10-20 minutes, I would spend a few moments on breath and to an extent body as a whole, then scan with a free flow. I feel at these times my concentration strengthens most. That may suggest Shamatha may also be a good practice for me.

[Dharmic Tui]

This seems to indicate that the frution process just happens(supramundane jhanas just arise) when the meditator is ripe. Also this clearly states that the meditator(no I involved) experiences nibanna and upon return is sotapanna, not a non-returner or arahant.

What are your thoughts on this?

Unfortunately I am not that good a book-Buddhist (I get the gist of it without needing specifics LOL), but I do seem to remember reading about the Buddha, and how he finally managed to win the battle against the armies of Mara (a metaphor for our conflicted, desiring minds) and become enlightened, only to have Mara turn up the next day.

How I interpret that is that you are able to see past the mind that wills and wants (by letting go), into enlightenment, and that "seeing" cannot be unseen, however that mind is still going to be there, requiring continual concentration and peace to keep you free.

I think there's a lot of misconception out there that you become enlightened and that's somehow a closed chapter.

[redalert]

Unfortunately I am not that good a book-Buddhist (I get the gist of it without needing specifics LOL),
How I interpret that is that you are able to see past the mind that wills and wants (by letting go), into enlightenment, and that "seeing" cannot be unseen, however that mind is still going to be there, requiring continual concentration and peace to keep you free.

I think there's a lot of misconception out there that you become enlightened and that's somehow a closed chapter.

I also am not a good book buddhist, not very scholarly so to speak. But I am trying and the intention of this thread is not to push my beliefs on any of you but to invite an open discussion about the process of enlightenment.

I also share your view that enlightenment is not a one off lightning bolt experience but a gradual process. Those who can reach jhanic levels temporarily supress the hindrences, but upon exiting these states they are subject to reacting towards anger, jealousy, pleasure, pain, etc.. with a level of attatchment that has a lower vibrational frequency.

Those who have worked to eraticated the sankharas that lead to birth in these lower vibrational frequencies, momentarily trancend the field of mind and matter and have an, although very limited experience, an experience of nirodha sammapatti(nibanna). This glimpse or seeing as you stated cannot be unseen and has the power to permanently eradicate the fetters of doubt, self-view, and clinging to rights and rituals. At this stage a sankhara that leads to these lower vibrational frequencies cannot be generated. Total freedom from these lower vibrational frequencies.

I believe there is a sutta that gives a description of this as a flash of lightning in the darkness, one is able to see the gem on the path. One cannot see the gem when the flash is gone but they know it is there.

[Billymac629]

I would like to pose the question do you think developement of jhanas is necessary for stream entry?

Goenka says open the heavenly gates within(I interpret this as stream entry), then unlock the brahmic plane within(developement of jhanas,possibly once returner),  and finally attain nibbanic peace within. (non returner/arahant)

If I interpret this correctly cultivation of jhanas is not necessary to reach the stage of stream entry. It would be necessary to develope them to reach the stage of non-returner or arahant.

First jhana is needed... maha metta

[redalert]

First jhana is needed...

Hey Billy,

Would you be so kind as to include the ... with your opinion. 

Do you feel that access concentration is an insufficient level of concentration to gain insight?

[redalert]

This is from Masauwu article,

"Similarly, with reference to the sixteen stages in the Progressive Stages of Insight, all
meditations from the 4th stage (Knowledge of Arising and Passing Away) and beyond
also correspond to jhāna in the general sense of the term. All of these are meditations
involving a stable, focused state of concentration"

I share this same opinion, observing the arising and passing away of subtle sensations(vedana) seems to meet the requirements for jhana.

Out of curiosity I mentioned this to the senior monk during our weekly sutta discussion last night. He disagreed and stated that there is no sensation in jhana.

so these are the jhana factors,

1. Initial application (vitakka)
2. Sustained application (vicara)
3. Joy (píti)
4. Happiness (sukha)
5. One-pointedness (ekaggata)

In practice, these factors can be defined as follows:

1. Bringing the mind to the object (arousing, applying)             
2. Keeping the mind with the object (sustaining, stretching)
3. Finding, having interest in the object (joy)
4. Being happy and content with the object (happiness)
5. Unifying the mind with the object (fixing).

So what is the object if not vedana, even if you are observing breath it is observed as a sensation/feeling, rise and fall of the abdomen is a sensation as well.

So to tie this together with the initial quote, it seems that Goenka's body scanning practice is an effective way of teaching us to penetrate from the gross to the subtle sub conscious levels of mind, in effect reaching the jhanic levels. As we progress with this, we develope the ability to remain in this state(field of panna) for longer periods of time, and also develope the ability to remain in this field while eyes open and functioning our daily tasks.

[Masauwu]

I share this same opinion, observing the arising and passing away of subtle sensations(vedana) seems to meet the requirements for jhana.

Out of curiosity I mentioned this to the senior monk during our weekly sutta discussion last night. He disagreed and stated that there is no sensation in jhana.

I think this is related to the many variations in jhana definitions depending on method (shamatha jhana and vipassana jhana) and tradition (there are teachers who only consider rock stable hard concentration jhana to be jhana); however all these are beyond my experience level to even discuss. Concentration before insight, insight before concentration or both cultivated in tandem, all 3 are valid paths according to suttas. So we are free to choose what fits us.

[redalert]

Thanks for this Masauwu,

I asked the monk about vipassana jhana last night and he said vipassana jhanas are the same as the supramundane jhanas. I think this is why the object is important(ability to observe three charachteristics). I have only ever practiced with breath and sensations.

It was interesting reading about daniels experience with candle flame meditations and the red and other coloured dots which became aparent with the burning of the retna. I have experienced something like this quite accidentally on retreat watching those long televised discourses, I seemed to have burned an image of my eyeshape and it appeared as a luminous strand which looked like a flying saucer when I walked out into the dark snow covered landscape of the retreat. I watched it as it's stability broke up and it dissipated but I did not pay any attention to any charachteristics so to speak, it took me a few nights to fidgure out what was happening. I initially thought aliens were coming to visit me  

I don't think that anymore

[redalert]

Okay, got back from a private interview with the senior monk in charge of our dhamma discussions, and I misunderstood him. He mentioned there was no sensation in jhana, but he meant in nirodha sammapati, in jhana up to the fourth there is sensation.

He was in agreement with me, that the practice is to use jhana up to the fourth, to practice insight for liberation to occur.

Some teachers practice jhana first, then insight, some insight first, some a little of this and then a little of that.

He also agreed that thought is possible in jhana. There are two types of thought wholesome and unwholesome, wholesome though is present in jhana(there is no-self in wholesome thought) some call this type of thought discursive. This is the thought that one would use to move there awareness from place to place in the body. Pondering is another translation I believe.

So one can develope jhana using mundane objects, but for liberation to occur one would eventually have to redirect this jhanic concentration towards the practice of vipassana.

I imagine this is why goenka teaches vipassana with the body scan method, for those who have not developed sufficient concentration during the anapana phase of the course, they can work the outer body part by part, once concentration strengthens they can begin to work with the flow of innerbody sensation(the field of panna) at the level where insights can arise.

So ultimately Goenka is teaching jhana indirectly from day one, and even vipassana practice is jhana practice, and ultimately the practice of metta bhavana is the entire practice in a nutshell.

[Masauwu]

Okay, got back from a private interview with the senior monk in charge of our dhamma discussions

From what you say he seems very knowledgeable, you are fortunate to have access to a real life experienced teacher.

Some teachers practice jhana first, then insight, some insight first, some a little of this and then a little of that.

This is where it gets interesting. If my understanding is correct, the vipassana movement ("dry" insight first) was promoted by theravadan teachers in south-east Asia like Mahasi Sayadaw and S.N. Goenka as tools for laypeople to attain liberation; jhana-first approaches usually need a secluded environment as free from hindrances as possible, but dry insight techniques can be used by anyone anywhere. And that is great, until you run into rough terrain with no experienced teacher to guide you out of the fog (surely i'm not the only one learning meditation exclusively from online texts).

The most common rough terrain of dry insight techniques is the so called "dark night" (steps 5-10 in this rendering of the stages of insight) which from what anecdotal evidence i gather can be quite problematic. The best explanation i could find is:

Insight into Dukkha is a miserable experience if
a) one launches into Insight without the "lubricating moisture", i.e. piti (joy), passadhi (tranquility), and upekha (equanimity) of Samatha; and
b) Insights into anicca, sunyatta, and dukkha precede insight into anatta. Deepening Insight into impermanence by someone who still has a strong intuitive sense of being a real, separate Self can be a terrifyingly miserable experience. A "Self" in a world of impermanent and empty "things" to which that Self tries to cling is the very definition of dukkha. [...]
(source)

Of course nobody is doing 100% vipassana or 100% samatha, even without intention we can mix them up a bit, but i think it's good to know what lies ahead when we choose our own path without a teacher's supervision (i'm guessing it's the case for many people who only learn about meditation online).

[redalert]

From what you say he seems very knowledgeable, you are fortunate to have access to a real life experienced teacher.

I believe I mentioned this previously, about 5 years ago I hit my bottom.

I was abusing alchohol, addicted to cigarettes, prone to violence, pretty much one of the most miserable humans in existence. A moment of awakening occured, I got to take a look at what I had become in a very unique way. Alchoholics call this a moment of clarity(and it truly is just that). This moment of clarity gave some sort of wisdom to me which allowed me to walk away from alchohol and ciggarettes instantly I've never had a desire to return to them. This also gave me some sort of fuel to start down this path although I did not know this path existed.

My wife gave me a book written by Eckhart Tolle (a new earth) and it radiated with me at my core, it wasn't long after that that I found myself at the door of my local buddhist temple where I met the Bhante who has helped me so much. Through this centre I have found many dhamma brothers and sisters and one introduced me to the Goenka vipassana centre which I am fortunate to have one hours drive from my home. There I have found many teachers and friends in the dhamma and my technique for practicing the dhamma. Having questions that I needed answers to but were afraid to ask in person or simply lacked the words, I found this forum where I have met all of you, more dhamma brothers and sisters.

I am convinced that when one starts down the path of dhamma we come in contact with a higher power that sheppards us along the journey, I certainly feel truly fortunate for these blessings, and also for my supportive family.

 The dark night!!!!

I believe I was one of those dry insight workers you mentioned, purification through pain has been my experience. I've had retreats where sitting felt like I had battery acid pumping through my veins. My first day at Goenka retreat, ( I had sat a couple other retreats at the temple prior) and I was ready to quit, I literally did not think I could survive the pain. I remember finishing the day at 9 pm and limping my way back to my room. I thought I had done permanent damage to my legs, back, shoulders, head, ankles, feet, butt etc.... I crawled into bed seriously frightened of the next day, but to my amazement I woke completely soaked from sweat but with absolute clarity the pain was gone and I had this new mind to meditate with, I got to the meditation hall and sat for the first time for an hour and a half with no pain and the time went by fast, it was then that I realised that my state of mind was causing my suffering.

It has not been smooth sailing since then but this insight and a few others have allowed me to strengthen in equiminity. The first day at goenka retreat seemed to be my single darkest night, nothing has been as difficult as this first night. Some dealings with anxiety have been tough but managable.  Perhaps the fact that my entire life up to my awakening was a dark night I was cut some slack. Or maybe the real heavy self had fallen away somewhat with that moment of clarity, I don't know but I know that life is a heck of alot easier now.

The darknight can't exist when we shine the light of awareness on it. But it helps to have the biggest bloody light you can!!