Questions about Mindfulness of breathing

[AJM]

Hello everyone AJM here. Perhaps this post should be in introductions, but it has a combined nature since the discussion itself belongs here.

I've been meditating more regularly for about a year now although most of that meditation time has not been sitting meditation but rather something you do while on the go in work and otherwise. I was introduced to meditation by shinzen youngs science of enlightenment guided meditations. I did those for a while on and off, but a year ago I found a book called The End of Social Anxiety and the exercises in it were mostly meditation based although many of them were something you should do while in your daily life. I've also done some breathing meditation, but a around a month ago I became interested in buddhist meditation and especially breathing meditation since it is recommended as a starting point.

Since then I've learned that there are a quite conflicting views on how breathing meditation should be practiced even though all the sources cite the anapanasati sutta they have different interpretations of it. I started with instructions in knowing and seeing a book I found which is also available from http://www.paaukforestmonastery.org/books.htm which tells you to focus on your nose. I found the same instruction from some other place too.

Then I found this forum and learned that in fact focusing on your nose is based on a translation error from the pali texts and in fact you should focus on your breath sensitive to the entire body. I read matthews beginner meditation / shamatha guide. Although at first I propbably misinterpreted it and instead of focusing on my breath I just focused on entire body awareness and relaxation and that got me relaxed but progress kind of stifled there. Then I read matthews clarification somewhere that in fact you should focus on the feeling of breath in your entire body.

I also read anapanasati sutta from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html and Thanissaro Bhikkhu's guided meditation http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/guided.html

I did a meditation based on that and I think I'm on the right path now. My focus settled on my solar plexus and then I felt breath expand all the way up and down my torso to my toes head and fingertips. A very pleasurable and pleasant feeling. Although some tensions in my body got me shaking a little bit. And on shaking.. I've been doing an exercise called Trauma Release Exercises or TRE's for short where you literally shake and relax your muscles in this way. I recommend David Berceli's book on it http://www.amazon.com/The-Revolutionary-Trauma-Release-Process/dp/1897238401/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1371407204&sr=8-2&keywords=trauma+release+exercises some information can also be found from http://traumaprevention.com/2009/12/31/what-is-tre/

Now, I have a couple of questions on mindfulness of breathing.

"[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.' [7] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.'[4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.' [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.'

I've got to a point where I start getting pleasurable feelings not sure if it's yet what is transcribed here, but what I don't quite understand is that if "Mental fabrication" is perceptions and feelings and plesaure and rapture are feelings too you are supposed to calm them too right after you start getting them? or am I missing something here?

[edit] Also 1st jhana is supposed to have bliss, joy and happiness and only in 4th jhana all these "feelings" stop and there is only one-pointedness and equanimity.

One thing also that in the anapana instructions in knowing and seeing they talk about a "nimitta" appearing at your nostrils. If you focus is in your entire body does a nimitta appear then too? there is no mention about a nimitta in anapana sati sutta, but then again according to knowing and seeing it's a prerequisite for jhana that you see a nimitta and start focusing on it instead of the breath at some point.

My questions and thirst for knowledge go ahead of my current skill in meditation, but I guess it's good to be enthusiastic after all.

[Dharmic Tui]

Hi AJM, welcome to the forum. My standard shtick about Vipassana/meditation is it's really an exercise you have to experience, rather than information you read in a book and then implant in your brain in the hopes of achieving something. It's actually exquisitely simple to get into powerful states of mind, you've just got to strip away your current mode of thinking in a subjective sense. To help you questions"

I've got to a point where I start getting pleasurable feelings not sure if it's yet what is transcribed here, but what I don't quite understand is that if "Mental fabrication" is perceptions and feelings and plesaure and rapture are feelings too you are supposed to calm them too right after you start getting them? or am I missing something here?

The pleasurable feelings you have should come from a place where you turn off your ruminating mind and be at peace with the present moment, just sit and be with them, don't be afraid. This is vastly different than making yourself feel good (or bad) through thinking of the past or future, or some sort of fantasy.

One thing also that in the anapana instructions in knowing and seeing they talk about a "nimitta" appearing at your nostrils. If you focus is in your entire body does a nimitta appear then too? there is no mention about a nimitta in anapana sati sutta, but then again according to knowing and seeing it's a prerequisite for jhana that you see a nimitta and start focusing on it instead of the breath at some point.

There are lots of reported ways to get a Nimitta. The best way to get one, is to sit regularly, not expect anything of yourself, slow down, and stop thinking.

[AJM]

After reading all of about this where to focus, the nostrils, throat, abdomen etc.. I started asking myself the question what is the breath and did a meditation on this. I was searching my breath labeling my understanding moment by moment. not breath, not breath, breath etc.. and what I found was that no more is the breath brushing against your nostrils, throat, or rising or fallign of the abdomen the breath then the finger pointing to the moon is the moon. I found that what I had been focusing on was actually not the breath and this morning I did my first meditation on the breath.

What I found was that I was way more distracted then I previously had thought. Body sensations distracted me a lot, some verbal thought and thought images distracted me, some sounds distracted me. I found it was very hard to continuously to be only aware of the breath. At least now I know I'm on the right path. I just need to practice more.

Any thoughts?

[Dharmic Tui]

If you will the focus on the breath, it will likely never come. The breath should be in the background all the time, it never goes away, it's always there. Your mind will wander, but you can always come back to the breath. Over time your mind should wander a bit less, or you don't get sucked into thought so much, and focus on the breath will naturally increase.

But yeah, getting caught up on whether the breath is in the nostrils, or the abdomen, or the chest, etc is actually counter intuitive, you want to be noticing that you are breathing, not where you are breathing.

[AJM]

Yeah, I think it's the same with one-pointedness too. It's not that you should focus on a specific place in your body, but a specific concept which is the breath itself.

[Matthew]

Hi AJM,

Yeah, I think it's the same with one-pointedness too. It's not that you should focus on a specific place in your body, but a specific concept which is the breath itself.

Nearly ..... suggestion: "It's not that you should focus on a specific place in your body, but allow a specific experience which is the breath itself becoming one with awareness itself."

...Then I found this forum and learned that in fact focusing on your nose is based on a translation error from the pali texts and in fact you should focus on your breath sensitive to the entire body. I read matthews beginner meditation / shamatha guide. Although at first I propbably misinterpreted it and instead of focusing on my breath I just focused on entire body awareness and relaxation and that got me relaxed but progress kind of stifled there. Then I read matthews clarification somewhere that in fact you should focus on the feeling of breath in your entire body.

I also read anapanasati sutta from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html and Thanissaro Bhikkhu's guided meditation http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/guided.html

I did a meditation based on that and I think I'm on the right path now.

Cool. Apologies for any confusions I may have caused you.

.... what I don't quite understand is that if "Mental fabrication" is perceptions and feelings and plesaure and rapture are feelings too you are supposed to calm them too right after you start getting them? or am I missing something here?

Mental fabrications are compound things volitionally created by the mind .... this can be concepts, feelings all sorts ... actually if you google it and read the wikipedia page you'll probably find some clarity

...
One thing also that in the anapana instructions in knowing and seeing they talk about a "nimitta" appearing at your nostrils.

...Then I found this forum and learned that in fact focusing on your nose is based on a translation error from the pali texts ...

These two sentences together might ring a little alarm bell if you re-read them? By the way .... nimitta don't always appear the same way for all, not even the same sense for all .....

...
My questions and thirst for knowledge go ahead of my current skill in meditation, but I guess it's good to be enthusiastic after all.

Enthusiastic, yes, aware that this enthusiasm can be negative if it keeps outstripping your practice also is the balance.

Kindly,

Matthew