Author Topic: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?  (Read 15535 times)

redalert

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2013, 01:31:18 PM »
http://youtu.be/RofybYVNCe4 this video talks about enlightenment and LSD.

Self-knowledge through drug-use???
Jiddu Krishnamurti quote
Q: I think it is possible under certain drugs to know myself with analysis - there is no conflict.

K: If one takes LSD or various forms of drugs that helps a great deal, because in that there is not conflict at all. So you please take drugs. Does it really, does any drug, LSD, marijuana, any of them - does it really expose the totality of the content of consciousness, or does it bring about chemically a certain state of mind which is totally different from the understanding of oneself? These drugs - I have never taken them - they have taken them in India a great deal - I watched many people there. I have also watched students in universities in America, and many, many other people who have been taking various forms of drugs, LSD, marijuana, you know I don't know what all the other names are - psychedelic drugs. If you have observed, these drugs do affect the mind, the brain cells themselves. They destroy the brain. If you have talked to one or many of those who have taken drugs, they can't reason, they can't pursue a logical sequence of thought - and the doctors and the scientists are beginning to say it does destroy the very structure of the brain cells. Not only LSD but marijuana, which is much more dangerous than LSD because that leaves a toxic condition in the brain cells and is more difficult to get rid of. In India they have taken drugs for millions, for thousands of years and they are the most ignorant people who have taken drugs. And all the so-called intellectuals in India have denied it, said don't do it, touch it. I am not asking you not to take it, it's up to you, but when you see the effect of it, on people - they have no sense of responsibility, they think they can do anything they like, many, many hospitals are full of these people who mentally are unbalanced through drugs.
[...]
Q: I find your sequence of thought illogical. And also I cannot see how you can argue against drugs if you have not any experience of taking drugs.
K: Ah wait. How can you argue against drugs if you have not taken drugs yourself? Must you go through various forms of experience, must you get drunk in order to understand sobriety? Must you get angry in order to find out what it is not to be angry? Must you over eat in order - and so on and so on. Can't one observe without going through all the human mischief?



« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 04:41:41 PM by redalert »

Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2013, 04:52:56 PM »
Siddarthgode:

By putting substances into your body and believing you can be equanimous to these manufactured feelings is an absolute contradiction. Just the mere act of putting drugs into your body, one is by definition trying to utterly produce pleasant sensations, in a completely unnatural way.

we keep on repeating our thinking of curtain incident in out mind because we want to generate curtain sensations artificially. so how is that different from trying to induce curtain sensations by some other methods? end result is the same. our mind is a slave to craving and abortion to sensations.

Quote
One may think they are being equanimous,
well i dont really think i am equanimous to drug or for anything for that matter. i am trying to be. some times i succeed some times i fail. thats my reality.
i am not on drugs 24/7, to say i never have normal unaltered awareness. i dont understand your point at all.... why cant i work to achieving equanimity towards my minds desires and negatives?

lets say i am trying to remain equanimus when anger arises at this moment. i am observing my sensations that arise and pass without reacting to them.  what does that have to do with some weed or acid or anything for that matter, that i took a month back?

garyblackhouse

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2013, 06:05:00 PM »
I'm surprised to see in the past few days all the comments relating to drugs, and how it "compliments meditation. It's very scary that some people are using meditation to try to achieve drug-like states. This goes beyond intellectual entertainment, and borders somewhat on craziness. I'm certainly no judge, but I feel very strongly that nothing good comes out of drug use in the long run. It will only add to the misery and dukkah we all go through. Regardless of the drug use, seeking a particular feeling, sensation, or euphoria is a complete dead end. By doing this one is essentially playing games with meditation in order to achieve an outcome. Taking drugs to achieve particular mind-body states is really no different than meditating without drugs to achieve these states. It may work in the shirt term, but in the long run this will get one absolutely nowhere. Wisdom is impossible to achieve when one is seeking sensations. For those of you that do use drugs to achieve states of being, how can you be equanimous at all?

I don't think people should meditate to try and find a "drug like state." Pot can make you feel more at peace. Meditation can make you feel more at peace. A lot of people start meditation to overcome their addictions, addictions they have because of their suffering, victims of themselves and the lame "answers" society gives us. Eventually everyone will find that whatever they're taking to help whatever problem they have will stop working. I think it's okay to start meditating to, in a very small way, "replace the drugs", as long as you're replacing it with reality and equanimity and not to achieve any particular outcome or sensation.

Mpgkona

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2013, 06:13:47 PM »
Siddarth: what I am simply talking about is using drugs and meditating while "high". I was refering to a few earlier comments about people doing this. I was never talking about remembering a past drug experience. All Im really trying to say is that its dangerous to mix drugs and meditation concurrently. Would you agree with this statement?
When you change the way you look at things the things you look at change.

TryptamineFiend420

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2013, 08:53:52 PM »

Self-knowledge through drug-use???


Yes.  It is very simple and I will explain.  First of all like I said, LSD seems to affect me very differently than the average user.  Maybe because I generally take rather small doses, or maybe because of my unique brain chemistry.  As for how LSD can lead to self-knowledge?  Very simple.  When I take LSD, it breaks down my ego (my idea of who I am, the roles I play in society, social conditioning, and all other preconceived notions).  THe result of this is that I am able to step outside of my normal egocentric viewpoint, and look at myself from and outsider's perspective.  This new perspective from this new vantage point, allows me to look at qualities about myself and about my life, in a totally unbiased manner.  This lack of bias and lack of preconceived notions makes it much easier for me to look at issues from many different angles and makes me realize that all along I've been looking at things with a very narrow scope.  LSD is just removing filters in the mind for me.  It's not like most drugs that simply just jack up your brain chemicals and give you a false sense of happiness, while letting you just sweep your problems under the rug (i.e. alcohol, ecstasy, coke)

- psychedelic drugs. If you have observed, these drugs do affect the mind, the brain cells themselves. They destroy the brain. If you have talked to one or many of those who have taken drugs, they can't reason, they can't pursue a logical sequence of thought - and the doctors and the scientists are beginning to say it does destroy the very structure of the brain cells. Not only LSD but marijuana, which is much more dangerous than LSD because that leaves a toxic condition in the brain cells and is more difficult to get rid of. In India they have taken drugs for millions, for thousands of years and they are the most ignorant people who have taken drugs. And all the so-called intellectuals in India have denied it, said don't do it, touch it. I am not asking you not to take it, it's up to you, but when you see the effect of it, on people - they have no sense of responsibility, they think they can do anything they like, many, many hospitals are full of these people who mentally are unbalanced through drugs.

I would love to see some evidence to back up this claim that doctors and scientists are beginning to say that marijuana and lsd destroy the structure of the brain and brain cells.  As for your claim that people who take these drugs have no sense of responsibility...maybe that's all you've seen, but that's a total stereotype.  There have been plenty of notable and very successful people who've used marijuana and/or lsd a whole lot!  Maybe the people you've talked to who've taken these drugs "can't reason or pursue a logical sequence of thought", but that is not the case with all or even most users.  Perhaps the people you talked to have also abused other, more serious drugs which do actually fry your brain, like coke or ecstasy.  For example, many people think Ozzy Osbourne fried his brain with acid.  He did use lots of acid, but it is much more likely all the coke he did that made him a bit slow later in his life.  If pot and lsd do the things to the brain that you claim, then tell me why during my 52nd LSD trip, I wrote a 6 page final essay and took two final exams all of which received A's?  Or why Steve Jobs took LSD and then invented the apple computer?  Or why Francis Crick discovered the double-helix structure of DNA while under the influence of LSD?  Or why Carl Sagan smoked loads of pot and went on to remain one of the world's most respected cosmologists?  Or why Bob Marley smoked tons of pot and wrote some of the deepest and most meaningful lyrics ever conceived of...just to name a few.  With all due respect, it just seems to me like you're a little bit misinformed on these substances, as are the majority of people.

Mpgkona

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2013, 10:16:49 PM »
Ob I dont doubt many people have done some amazing things while under the influence. But I would imagine this number pales in comparison to the screwed up lives and families of the manority of substance abusers. Steve Jobs was already a brilliant inventor, but he admits his ideas obviously came from others' work too. He didnt wake up one day, drop a tab, and boom assembled a computer.

Also, just because one can do amazing things under the influence doesnt make it acceptable. All the wonderful things you say happen to you while on LSD, well, its sad that you NEED something outside of yourself to be able to look inside yourself. Imagine if you could do all these things sober. What would happen if LSD was t produced anymore. So what youre saying is that you wouldnt be able to forego ego at all? I hope your supply never runs out man.
When you change the way you look at things the things you look at change.

redalert

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2013, 10:35:42 PM »
LSD seems to affect me very differently than the average user.  Maybe because I generally take rather small doses, or maybe because of my unique brain chemistry.

This sounds like what alot of people say about their addictions, "I've got this under control". Until one day when the small doses you take are not enough and you start to take more.

 
As for how LSD can lead to self-knowledge?  Very simple.  When I take LSD, it breaks down my ego (my idea of who I am, the roles I play in society, social conditioning, and all other preconceived notions).  THe result of this is that I am able to step outside of my normal egocentric viewpoint, and look at myself from and outsider's perspective.  This new perspective from this new vantage point, allows me to look at qualities about myself and about my life, in a totally unbiased manner.  This lack of bias and lack of preconceived notions makes it much easier for me to look at issues from many different angles and makes me realize that all along I've been looking at things with a very narrow scope.


And what happens when you stop taking the drug or it's effects begin to wear off? Does the ego begin to arise again? Has there been any wisdom experienced into the impermanent nature of self?
It sounds as though the drug allows you to see your current role in society, this is still duality (subject and object) and no liberative wisdom can come from this.
 
LSD is just removing filters in the mind for me.  It's not like most drugs that simply just jack up your brain chemicals and give you a false sense of happiness, while letting you just sweep your problems under the rug (i.e. alcohol, ecstasy, coke)
The drug is simply removing your inhibitions and allowing you to act in a less self conscious and more relaxed manner, and you are becoming dependent on this drug to do this. This is not enlightenment. As time progresses your dependency on this drug will increase as will the dosage.

I would love to see some evidence to back up this claim that doctors and scientists are beginning to say that marijuana and lsd destroy the structure of the brain and brain cells.  As for your claim that people who take these drugs have no sense of responsibility...maybe that's all you've seen, but that's a total stereotype.  There have been plenty of notable and very successful people who've used marijuana and/or lsd a whole lot!  Maybe the people you've talked to who've taken these drugs "can't reason or pursue a logical sequence of thought", but that is not the case with all or even most users.  Perhaps the people you talked to have also abused other, more serious drugs which do actually fry your brain, like coke or ecstasy.  For example, many people think Ozzy Osbourne fried his brain with acid.  He did use lots of acid, but it is much more likely all the coke he did that made him a bit slow later in his life.  If pot and lsd do the things to the brain that you claim, then tell me why during my 52nd LSD trip, I wrote a 6 page final essay and took two final exams all of which received A's?  Or why Steve Jobs took LSD and then invented the apple computer?  Or why Francis Crick discovered the double-helix structure of DNA while under the influence of LSD?  Or why Carl Sagan smoked loads of pot and went on to remain one of the world's most respected cosmologists?  Or why Bob Marley smoked tons of pot and wrote some of the deepest and most meaningful lyrics ever conceived of...just to name a few.  With all due respect, it just seems to me like you're a little bit misinformed on these substances, as are the majority of people.

These were not my words they are the words of Krishnamurti.
As I stated earlier the drug removes ones inhibitions, this may or may not have led to these creations from those you listed, I would have to think that much hard work and practice also went into these creations.
Through meditation we can observe the impermanent nature of the self, this allows wisdom to arise. This wisdom is liberative and leads to a natural reduction in ones inhibitions and no drug is necessary for this.

DarkNightOfNoSoul

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2013, 11:46:48 PM »
I don't think all this arguing is going to convince you TryptamineFiend! Probably this is one of those things that can't fully be appreciated from an intellectual perspective; many realisations only come through our own direct experience. If you keep up your daily meditation practice over the coming years, and attend the occasional retreat (10-14 days without LSD, OMG!), it will probably become clear to you why seeking enlightenment through psychedelics is a dead-end. There are a lot of things in this world that seem too good to be true, and that's because they are.

Also know that any substance taken in high enough quantity and/or over a long enough period will certainly damage your body and nervous system - that's basic toxicology. So please at least consider being moderate in your drug use, for your own safety.

On the other hand, you might prove us wrong and find enlightenment in a few weeks - in which case, please tell us so we can all find dealers!

Metta.

TryptamineFiend420

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2013, 12:31:52 AM »
This sounds like what alot of people say about their addictions, "I've got this under control". Until one day when the small doses you take are not enough and you start to take more.

Sounds to me like you are lumping all addictions into one category and assuming that an"addiction" to something like LSD is along the same lines as addiction to something like heroin or cigarrettes.  Having taken LSD over 70 times, I still have never had an urge to increase my dosage, except for the occasional instrospective trip where I want to go a little deeper than usual.  In fact lately I've been taking lower doses than I used to, and have gone from about 3 times a week to about once every 1 or 2 weeks.  If I was truly addicted, I wouldn't have been able to decrease my usage that much.  I used to buy a 10-strip and not have the willpower to save any for long term...It'd always be gone in 2 or 3 weeks.  The last 10 strip I bought was about over 2 months ago and I still have 2 tabs left, because now I always wait until what I think is the optimum time to take it.  I will not be taking either of those two tabs until my snowboarding trip.  6 months ago I was not able to wait more than 3 days to redose, so I'd say I've made some progress in my "addiction".

And what happens when you stop taking the drug or it's effects begin to wear off? Does the ego begin to arise again? Has there been any wisdom experienced into the impermanent nature of self?
It sounds as though the drug allows you to see your current role in society, this is still duality (subject and object) and no liberative wisdom can come from this.

Yes, the ego does begin to arise again when the drug wears off.  However the memory of the experience is still self-transformational for me at a certain level.  Had I never taken LSD, I wouldn't know that I was capable of freeing myself from my ego.  Before I ever took it, I was so strongly identified with my problems, that I truly believed I could never rid myself of them.  My first trip endowed me with such a strong sense of hope that I still have to this day, because it showed me that there is a part of my self which is just pure self, and all the drama and emotional baggage is more like clothes that I wear..and can change if I know how to.  Even if I went 30 years now without taking any, that original realization and newfound hope would never leave me.  I finally realized that LSD is not a permanent long-term solution though, and that I need to find a way to try to free myself from the prison of my mind in the everyday life...which was the original point of my posting this thread.  However just because LSD is simply a temporary experience and not a long-term solution does not mean that nothing can be gained from it.  That's like saying that sex is pointless because you can't live in an orgasm 24/7.
 
The drug is simply removing your inhibitions and allowing you to act in a less self conscious and more relaxed manner, and you are becoming dependent on this drug to do this. This is not enlightenment. As time progresses your dependency on this drug will increase as will the dosage.

It goes a little deeper than simply removing my inhibitions.  That's part of it, but if all I wanted to do was remove my inhibitions I would just drink alcohol or take some benzos.  However I despise what alcohol and other "inhibition-lowering" drugs do to my conscionsness because they blind me from my true self, and the manner in which they make me more confident and relaxed, is by making me forget my problems.  With LSD, my problems are still there and in the light as much as ever, the difference is I'm not trapped in identification with them, so I have a better vantage point to get a clear look at them.  And as time progresses, no my dosage will not increase.  Like I said, both my dosage and frequency of use have decreased dramatically.  There is a lot that LSD did teach me about myself and help me with other than what I listed in my first post.  My first post was just a list of things that I haven't quite been able to carry over into sober consciousness, but there have definitely been some more specific issues which LSD has helped me to conquer or at least understand better.  Much of which is very private personal matters.  THere's nothing wrong with using it occasionally to work on a single problem in one's life.  THere are definitely things which LSD has to this day helped me with permanently..NO question.  I just didn't include those things in my original post because: a) they are private, and b) the point of the post was to highlight the things from LSD that do NOT carry over into sobriety for me, so that I could get some advice as to how to work on THOSE things.  Not the things which it's already helped me with.


These were not my words they are the words of Krishnamurti.
As I stated earlier the drug removes ones inhibitions, this may or may not have led to these creations from those you listed, I would have to think that much hard work and practice also went into these creations.
Through meditation we can observe the impermanent nature of the self, this allows wisdom to arise. This wisdom is liberative and leads to a natural reduction in ones inhibitions and no drug is necessary for this.

I apologize.  I did not realize that you were quoting someone else when speaking about those doctors' and scientists' claims.  WHat you describe right here about meditation sounds like exactly what I am looking for, which makes me even happier that I am continuing to practice it.  I will keep on practicing and I am willing to wait years or whatever it takes before I start seeing these changes come about.  However, there are still occasions where I want to experience an extroardinary mindset for just one day, if I'm doing something really special, and in that case I will still take it because it will be a while before I can experience this liberation through my practices alone.  I feel like the arc of my experience so far is very much similar to that of Ram Dass.  He used to take LSD all the time like myself, and then eventually he realized it's impermanent nature, went to India for a while, studied with a guru, and after coming back he no longer took it more than about once every two years.  As he said himself word for word "When I left to go to India, psychedelics were my method.  When I came back, it was inside of me."  To me this means that there's something about LSD specifically, more than other drugs, that may give a person SOME of the same states of conscious as a master meditator.

TryptamineFiend420

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2013, 12:35:33 AM »
I don't think all this arguing is going to convince you TryptamineFiend! Probably this is one of those things that can't fully be appreciated from an intellectual perspective; many realisations only come through our own direct experience. If you keep up your daily meditation practice over the coming years, and attend the occasional retreat (10-14 days without LSD, OMG!), it will probably become clear to you why seeking enlightenment through psychedelics is a dead-end. There are a lot of things in this world that seem too good to be true, and that's because they are.

Also know that any substance taken in high enough quantity and/or over a long enough period will certainly damage your body and nervous system - that's basic toxicology. So please at least consider being moderate in your drug use, for your own safety.

On the other hand, you might prove us wrong and find enlightenment in a few weeks - in which case, please tell us so we can all find dealers!

Metta.

I'm actually currently on day 14 without any LSD.  Not because I ran out, but because I'm waiting until I go snowboard to take the rest.  And it's already clear to me why seeking enlightenment through psychedelics is a dead end.  I no longer take them seeking enlightenment...I now either take them to enhance an awesome experience, or to delve deeply into a certain problem in my life that comes up.  The psychedelics have taught me great things, some of which has stayed with me, some of which hasn't.  I realize that these things that haven't stayed with me I must now look for in sobriety.  Which is why I came here to ask how, and which is why I'm very grateful that you and others here have assured me that continuing my meditation practice, and checking out some of the other practices on this site (vipassana, etc) will be a good path for me.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 12:37:47 AM by TryptamineFiend420 »

Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2013, 04:48:50 AM »
Siddarth: what I am simply talking about is using drugs and meditating while "high". I was refering to a few earlier comments about people doing this. I was never talking about remembering a past drug experience. All Im really trying to say is that its dangerous to mix drugs and meditation concurrently. Would you agree with this statement?

ohh this i totally agree  :D
sorry for my miss understanding.  :(


Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2013, 05:06:16 AM »

Yes.  It is very simple and I will explain.  First of all like I said, LSD seems to affect me very differently than the average user.  Maybe because I generally take rather small doses, or maybe because of my unique brain chemistry. 

this is a false view that is generated during a acid trip. it affects very similarly to everyone. those with greater affection to ego will have have hard time letting it go and roam in the lower states of fear and anxiety.
also let me give you an insight, it its easy for you to let go of ego in a trip then you will have very high ego in normal life. ego in the sense not the interacting ego, the ego that arises when you have a feeling that you are right. see how strong that ego is if possible.

Quote
This lack of bias and lack of preconceived notions makes it much easier for me to look at issues from many different angles and makes me realize that all along I've been looking at things with a very narrow scope.  LSD is just removing filters in the mind for me.  It's not like most drugs that simply just jack up your brain chemicals and give you a false sense of happiness, while letting you just sweep your problems under the rug (i.e. alcohol, ecstasy, coke)

so what? what changed? you looked the reality in curtain way for some time. so? whats the big deal here?
ultimately you returned to the same sufferings and started reacting same way. what u got?

Quote
If pot and lsd do the things to the brain that you claim, then tell me why during my 52nd LSD trip, I wrote a 6 page final essay and took two final exams all of which received A's?  Or why Steve Jobs took LSD and then invented the apple computer?  Or why Francis Crick discovered the double-helix structure of DNA while under the influence of LSD?  Or why Carl Sagan smoked loads of pot and went on to remain one of the world's most respected cosmologists?  Or why Bob Marley smoked tons of pot and wrote some of the deepest and most meaningful lyrics ever conceived of...just to name a few.  With all due respect, it just seems to me like you're a little bit misinformed on these substances, as are the majority of people.
 
no we are not misinformed, we have the first hand experience here. because of the greater awareness due to meditation we can have a wider view than most of the drug users.
so all you want to do in life is invent the best computers ? get top A's ? write lyrics? then one day die ? without knowing full truth , attached to the things you did , u didnt do ..... ?
by all means if thats all you want to do then keep doing LSD. keep getting high. no one saying its wrong. its just not what we want in this forum. we are working for a better life.

metta

Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2013, 05:15:30 AM »
This sounds like what alot of people say about their addictions, "I've got this under control". Until one day when the small doses you take are not enough and you start to take more.

Sounds to me like you are lumping all addictions into one category and assuming that an"addiction" to something like LSD is along the same lines as addiction to something like heroin or cigarrettes.  Having taken LSD over 70 times, I still have never had an urge to increase my dosage, except for the occasional instrospective trip where I want to go a little deeper than usual.  In fact lately I've been taking lower doses than I used to, and have gone from about 3 times a week to about once every 1 or 2 weeks.  If I was truly addicted, I wouldn't have been able to decrease my usage that much.  I used to buy a 10-strip and not have the willpower to save any for long term...It'd always be gone in 2 or 3 weeks.  The last 10 strip I bought was about over 2 months ago and I still have 2 tabs left, because now I always wait until what I think is the optimum time to take it.  I will not be taking either of those two tabs until my snowboarding trip.  6 months ago I was not able to wait more than 3 days to redose, so I'd say I've made some progress in my "addiction".


hahaha then try and stop taking LSD for a year, you can always do it later any amount you want.
lets see if you still think you are not addicted.
to evaluate addiction - if a thought chain arises about LSD or its states - means there is still addiction.
i can remember my early days when i was thinking half my time about those states, and how people not getting all this. why they acting like this when i can see the way out.  bla bla bla

i do acid at the rate of once a year or less. i still think i am addicted to acid.  :P
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 05:20:47 AM by siddharthgode »

Mpgkona

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2013, 05:41:10 AM »
Tryptamine:  no one is judging you here or trying to give you a hard time. I think we're all just concerned about your drug use. When I was around 20 or 21 I was taking mushrooms a few times a year. These trips were absolutely fantastic, and I wouldn't trade those experiences for anything. When I was on the shrooms Oi felt unbelievable calm, euphoria, delight, etc. etc. but the biggest memory I have from those times is how I felt as I was coming down. I remember very clearly yearning for the feeling, which now I would call sensation, to never leave, which in turn sped up the process of coming down from the shrooms. During those days I would save shrooms or buy them for special occasions (e.g. Camping trips, backpacking weekends, trips to the beach, and other recreational things. Sadly, this seems exactly like what you are doing with your snowboarding trip. Obviously no one on this forum, including me can really tell you what to do or not to do. We can only offer advice, which I have two pieces of for you. For one, when you learn to meditate for longer periods of time, and when you learn to be equanimous to your feelings and sensations, things like snowboarding trips will be just as fantastic, or even more then that, when you are "sober." These days for me any given one hour sit is 100 times better then any mushroom trip I ever took. No, the euphoric feeling I had is not present, but that is not the goal of meditation. To the contrary, although there is no real end-goal to meditation (at least for me), knowing how to meditate and see things how they really are, and being equanimous to your feelings, the "feelings" you will achieve through meditation will make LSD seem like a walk in the park.

My Second piece of advise is to attend a meditation course or retreat. I have only attended Goenka retreats, so I can only speak to those, although there are many other meditation retreats and courses you can take that are not Goenkas style. Taking one of these courses will really allow you to delve deep into meditation, and it will be a far more valuable experience than taking LSD.
When you change the way you look at things the things you look at change.

Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2013, 07:16:49 AM »
knowing how to meditate and see things how they really are, and being equanimous to your feelings, the "feelings" you will achieve through meditation will make LSD seem like a walk in the park.

this is soo true. lsd becomes like any other experience and it loses all its power if one meditates and develops in remaining equanimus. then the almighty acid will be just like  a beer or a chocolate. it comes it goes. we enjoy the process know it also is impermanent. no real attachment.

TryptamineFiend420

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2013, 07:33:42 AM »

Quote
This lack of bias and lack of preconceived notions makes it much easier for me to look at issues from many different angles and makes me realize that all along I've been looking at things with a very narrow scope.  LSD is just removing filters in the mind for me.  It's not like most drugs that simply just jack up your brain chemicals and give you a false sense of happiness, while letting you just sweep your problems under the rug (i.e. alcohol, ecstasy, coke)

so what? what changed? you looked the reality in curtain way for some time. so? whats the big deal here?
ultimately you returned to the same sufferings and started reacting same way. what u got?

What changed is that the LSD did improve certain qualities about myself, in an indirect manner.  Yes I did return to the same sufferings but certain revelations that were revealed to me during the trip, I wrote down, and made it a point to work on those qualities.  Without the particular way in which the LSD mindstate allowed me to see the problems, I would not have known how to work on those problems as well as I did.  Let me distinguish:  The actual mindset of the LSD, in which certain new things are revealed to me, that mindstate itself is not retainable after the trip.  However...there are plenty of applicable life lessons I sometimes realize during a trip, brought about by the mindstate, that I am perfectly capable of noting and taking back into the "real world" with me to work on integrating.  For example: During my first trip, when I walked into my messy and cluttered room, I suddenly had the realization that my messy and cluttered room was making my mind messy and cluttered when I was in there.  In the sense that my mind reflects the environment around me.  Had it not been for the trip I wouldn't have realized that.  I immediately wrote down this realization, and ever since that day I have made a strong effort to keep my room more neat and organized, and have had positive results from that.  Without that realization, I'd probably still have a pig-sty room 24/7.

Quote
If pot and lsd do the things to the brain that you claim, then tell me why during my 52nd LSD trip, I wrote a 6 page final essay and took two final exams all of which received A's?  Or why Steve Jobs took LSD and then invented the apple computer?  Or why Francis Crick discovered the double-helix structure of DNA while under the influence of LSD?  Or why Carl Sagan smoked loads of pot and went on to remain one of the world's most respected cosmologists?  Or why Bob Marley smoked tons of pot and wrote some of the deepest and most meaningful lyrics ever conceived of...just to name a few.  With all due respect, it just seems to me like you're a little bit misinformed on these substances, as are the majority of people.
 
no we are not misinformed, we have the first hand experience here. because of the greater awareness due to meditation we can have a wider view than most of the drug users.
so all you want to do in life is invent the best computers ? get top A's ? write lyrics? then one day die ? without knowing full truth , attached to the things you did , u didnt do ..... ?
by all means if thats all you want to do then keep doing LSD. keep getting high. no one saying its wrong. its just not what we want in this forum. we are working for a better life.

I was merely quoting those people as examples, in response to redalert's post where he quoted Judda Krishnamurti saying that marijuana and lsd literally destroy the brain.  That lsd destroys brain cells, marijuana leaves the brain in a toxic state, and that people who use these drugs are irresponsible and cannot follow a logical thought sequence.  In response to that false information, I was saying that if it were tru that these drugs did destroy the brain structure, or produce these mentioned effects, there's no way that these people I mentioned would have done those things since they all used those drugs.  I did not mean that I want to invent computers, write lyrics, etc.  I am working for a better life too, and you should know that by the fact that I posted this thread.

TryptamineFiend420

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2013, 07:45:31 AM »
During those days I would save shrooms or buy them for special occasions (e.g. Camping trips, backpacking weekends, trips to the beach, and other recreational things. Sadly, this seems exactly like what you are doing with your snowboarding trip.

Why is it sad?  I can understand why it would be sad if I was already a master meditator and was enlightened and was planning on doing this... But at this point in my life, since I only go snowboarding once a year, and I know acid will make it 10x more awesome, why is it sad that I want to make my once a year slope run the most awesome and cosmic that it could possibly be for me at this point in my life?  I hope that one day down the road I will have meditated enough that snowboarding sober will be just as awesome as snowboarding tripping, but that's not the case right now and I still want to make the experience the most awesome it can possibly be.


For one, when you learn to meditate for longer periods of time, and when you learn to be equanimous to your feelings and sensations, things like snowboarding trips will be just as fantastic, or even more then that, when you are "sober."

Well I look very forward to that day!  I will certainly try to ramp up the amount of time I can sit in meditation.

My Second piece of advise is to attend a meditation course or retreat. I have only attended Goenka retreats, so I can only speak to those, although there are many other meditation retreats and courses you can take that are not Goenkas style. Taking one of these courses will really allow you to delve deep into meditation, and it will be a far more valuable experience than taking LSD.

I definitely want to make it a point to do this sometime in the not too far future.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 08:07:46 AM by TryptamineFiend420 »

DarkNightOfNoSoul

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2013, 09:37:37 AM »
During those days I would save shrooms or buy them for special occasions (e.g. Camping trips, backpacking weekends, trips to the beach, and other recreational things. Sadly, this seems exactly like what you are doing with your snowboarding trip.

Why is it sad?  I can understand why it would be sad if I was already a master meditator and was enlightened and was planning on doing this... But at this point in my life, since I only go snowboarding once a year, and I know acid will make it 10x more awesome, why is it sad that I want to make my once a year slope run the most awesome and cosmic that it could possibly be for me at this point in my life?  I hope that one day down the road I will have meditated enough that snowboarding sober will be just as awesome as snowboarding tripping, but that's not the case right now and I still want to make the experience the most awesome it can possibly be.

Hey again TryptamineFiend, you've sure kicked things off with this topic!

I'm not a super experienced meditator or anything, but I think I'm beginning to understand the reasoning behind why using drugs to enhance an already exciting experience could be considered a bit "sad".

The thing is, in our "normal" conditioned state (say an average Westerner with no meditation experience), we've become extremely habituated to "ordinary" reality - we tend to have a very low level of awareness of our surroundings and sensory inputs, because we're always either worrying about the future, or mulling over crap that happened in the past. With this low awareness, day-to-day reality seems generally pretty dull and we pay little attention to it. This leaves us with a constant nagging craving for "something more". So most of us do everything we can to increase our levels of stimulation and get "high" - sometimes that involves drink or drugs but mostly it's just things like TV, computer games, partying, shagging, fun parks, junk food, extreme sports, driving fast, buying flashy clothes, gadgets, cars, or whatever. This madness is "normal" life for most of us growing up in Western countries. And it's how capitalism and consumerism thrive so well!

But the more stimulation we get, the more we crave - basically like the building up of drug tolerance. This cycle ultimately leads to misery. We can never be satisfied for long.

With long-term meditation, we gradually start to see things very differently. Even daily activities and chores that we used to find excrutiatingly boring become "awesome and cosmic". The need for all those stimulating activities or substances starts to drop away.

So the "sad" part is that if you feel the need to crank up your enjoyment of something like snowboarding (which I also love - got a mountain 4 hours drive away) by 10x, it kind of suggests that you have the craving for stimulation particularly badly. I think you mentioned ADHD, which is obviously a big part of that - I'm sure you know that drugs like ritalin are stimulants designed to raise you up to a higher level of arousal so you don't feel so distracted, constantly looking for more interesting stuff to do. LSD is also a mild stimulant.

I would think that the right approach is not to keep feeding the craving with more stimulation, but to work on reducing the craving to help you relax and calm down and enjoy reality as it is, without needing to enhance it.

Of course I could be talking a load of crap, but I'm sure the more experienced people here will set things straight if I'm wrong.

garyblackhouse

  • Guest
Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2013, 05:27:06 PM »
I'd second what the people said above. It's impossible to predict you'll be able to hold onto that feeling in 30 years, it's also highly unlikely, no pun intended. Just try to be honest with yourself at all times, meditation is about being in the moment, if you're living on the sensation of the past and hoping in expectation for the next, this is not a good thing. Ask yourself these questions.

Of course, of course, it's your choice. And I do agree with you in that this is what you're doing now, or want to do, I smoked for a year saying the same thing and y'know, now, it was a worthwhile experience. I would say "I'm fine, I'm just smoking a little, it's not like I'm not being productive, and I understand it's a quick fix to my problems and just a bit of fun." When in actual fact, deep inside I was screaming, "I'm not fine, smoking is not good for me, even though I'm being productive what's the point if I'm being productive to justify getting high, what's the point in waiting to get high then getting high and waiting to get low, I need a fix of reality, where is it?" Eventually I went on a retreat, I was very thankful for the opportunity, and eventually I could admit these things to myself. So that's my advice, be honest with yourself.

Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2013, 05:48:58 PM »

Quote
This lack of bias and lack of preconceived notions makes it much easier for me to look at issues from many different angles and makes me realize that all along I've been looking at things with a very narrow scope.  LSD is just removing filters in the mind for me.  It's not like most drugs that simply just jack up your brain chemicals and give you a false sense of happiness, while letting you just sweep your problems under the rug (i.e. alcohol, ecstasy, coke)

so what? what changed? you looked the reality in curtain way for some time. so? whats the big deal here?
ultimately you returned to the same sufferings and started reacting same way. what u got?

What changed is that the LSD did improve certain qualities about myself, in an indirect manner.  Yes I did return to the same sufferings but certain revelations that were revealed to me during the trip, I wrote down, and made it a point to work on those qualities.  Without the particular way in which the LSD mindstate allowed me to see the problems, I would not have known how to work on those problems as well as I did.  Let me distinguish:  The actual mindset of the LSD, in which certain new things are revealed to me, that mindstate itself is not retainable after the trip.  However...there are plenty of applicable life lessons I sometimes realize during a trip, brought about by the mindstate, that I am perfectly capable of noting and taking back into the "real world" with me to work on integrating.  For example: During my first trip, when I walked into my messy and cluttered room, I suddenly had the realization that my messy and cluttered room was making my mind messy and cluttered when I was in there.  In the sense that my mind reflects the environment around me.  Had it not been for the trip I wouldn't have realized that.  I immediately wrote down this realization, and ever since that day I have made a strong effort to keep my room more neat and organized, and have had positive results from that.  Without that realization, I'd probably still have a pig-sty room 24/7.


here is how reality works. example -
i look at my friend who is very well built, who exercises every day, does diet etc.
i get a craving that i want that kind of a fit body.
i decide to do all that from tomorrow.
after a few weeks that determination starts to weaken because of distractions.
then i start doing it less often as i think i need that time to do something else.
one day all is lost.

we cannot force things on our mind when we are its slaves. it will subdue us very soon. the change has to come naturally. it cannot be a forced one.
in vipassana we don't try to change each mistakes we find in us. we try to accept them and try to bring a fundamental change in our perspective so that all the top layer changes happen on their own.
its like a science formula.
F = m . a
if we are using F = m . v
its stupid to go into each applied problem and changing the end result to match the correct answer.
the proper way is to change F = m . v to F = m . a

hope u understand the depth of our problem.

Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2013, 06:00:12 PM »
During those days I would save shrooms or buy them for special occasions (e.g. Camping trips, backpacking weekends, trips to the beach, and other recreational things. Sadly, this seems exactly like what you are doing with your snowboarding trip.

Why is it sad?  I can understand why it would be sad if I was already a master meditator and was enlightened and was planning on doing this... But at this point in my life, since I only go snowboarding once a year, and I know acid will make it 10x more awesome, why is it sad that I want to make my once a year slope run the most awesome and cosmic that it could possibly be for me at this point in my life?  I hope that one day down the road I will have meditated enough that snowboarding sober will be just as awesome as snowboarding tripping, but that's not the case right now and I still want to make the experience the most awesome it can possibly be.


you can certainly do that. nothing wrong as long as you are able to have a great time and forget all about it and get back to normal life. as long as you can stay in present moment all is good if your actions not hurting anyone.
what worries me is the dosage you are coating. with that high dosage you cannot have enough time to work on the qualities that you want to develop with pure unaltered awareness.  and the clock it ticking.

Vivek

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2013, 07:47:07 PM »
Quote
Why is it sad?  I can understand why it would be sad if I was already a master meditator and was enlightened and was planning on doing this... But at this point in my life, since I only go snowboarding once a year, and I know acid will make it 10x more awesome, why is it sad that I want to make my once a year slope run the most awesome and cosmic that it could possibly be for me at this point in my life?  I hope that one day down the road I will have meditated enough that snowboarding sober will be just as awesome as snowboarding tripping, but that's not the case right now and I still want to make the experience the most awesome it can possibly be.
Let me offer an observation, TF420. The above statements reflect the intense craving you have toward experiences. From a Vipassana-perspective, this intense craving IS suffering. I am not saying that there is any problem or that it is sad to want to make the experience "10x more awesome". You are the master of your own destiny and others have no right to judge you for what you do. But seen from the perspective of Buddha's teachings, this intense wanting as well as running after experiences is suffering. So, IMO, it all boils down to this: Whether you want to take the necessary steps toward recognizing suffering as it is and how it is playing out in your life and be freed from it, or whether you you want to continue going whichever way the craving/aversion takes you. I suggest you be honest with yourself and make a decision. The former choice will take commitment and work, and that is what this forum is about: to help you walk the path towards the end of all suffering. I see the the discussions in this thread going in circles and do not feel that it will reach any fruitful conclusion. I believe that if you do an honest self-examination, you will get the answers yourself. 
Let's go beyond this illusion, shall we?

Masauwu

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2013, 10:53:59 AM »
I have no experience with LSD but Alan Watts has a few things to say about it.
The summer river:
although there is a bridge, my horse
goes through the water.