Author Topic: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?  (Read 15534 times)

TryptamineFiend420

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Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« on: February 13, 2013, 04:24:28 AM »
Hello everyone.  As a new member here, I just wanted to start off by telling you guys what first set me on my spiritual path, as well as my goals. I also wanted to ask you guys' opinion on specific meditation techniques that may give me what I'm looking for.  Unfortunately, I had juuuust finished typing a really long and detailed post and Firefox quit as I was posting it and the whole thing was lost.  So I'm gonna try to condense it this time.

Basically, what first set me on my path of meditation/spirituality was my first psychedelic experience.  I am currently taking LSD around once every week or two, but awhile ago I had a period where I was taking a tab every 2 or 3 days.  This phase ended when my hookup left town, and I was left with no psychedelics for a while, so I was determined to find an alternate way to try to get the same effects that LSD was giving me.  This is what made me get serious about pursuing meditation, yoga, etc.  If the state of being that I expereinced on LSD was not enlightenment, then I don't know what is.  Keep in mind that the drug seems to affect me somewhat differently than many people.  Let me give you guys a list of some of the effects that I feel while I'm under the influence of LSD:

A strong sense of complete inner peace and calmness, rather than the anxiety I normally have

100% self-confidence that I can acheive anything I want to, rather than my usual state of self-doubt

Social self esteem and strong connection with others, rather than feeling anxious and awkward in social settings

A sense that everything will be alright, rather than worrying about future worst case scenarios

A total presence in the here and now, rather than my usual racing, chattering, absent-minded daydreaming

A total disappearance of my ADD/ADHD symptoms and an ability to concentrate for hours

A sense of self-understanding and self-forgiveness, rather than self-condemnation and guilt about trivial matters

A clear view of what I need to change in my life in order to improve it

A dissolution of mental conditioning (ego) so that I can see myself and the world around me from a fresh and unbiased standpoint

Quicker to find words to express myself

Extremely heightened creativity in my musical and artistic performances

Heightened senses, faster thinking, better motor skills, better hand-eye coordination, faster reflexes

An abundance of inspiration and motivation, rather than feeling lethargic, apathetic, and the infamous "writer's block syndrome"

An enhanced ability to empathize with others

A strong sense of connection and oneness with all that is, as well as a sense of understanding how "it all" works


Basically, LSD and my brain fit together like yin and yang.  I don't take it and have a "far out", trippy, intoxicating experience like many people have.  Instead I take it and feel 1000x more down to earth, sober, clear-headed, and lucid than I feel when I'm not on anything.  I can even tell that other people enjoy being around me more when I'm tripping because I put off better vibes and am easier to relate with.  It seems to "tune me in" to myself and to the world around me, which I guess is what Timothy Leary meant when he said "Turn on, tune in, drop out".

So anyway, that list above is basically a summary of what I experience for 10 hours when I drop a tab.  Sounds like enlightenment to me!  However, I'm looking for a way to work toward this state as a permanent state.  I like to believe that it's in me somewhere and the LSD just opens me up to it, rather than that I don't have it and the LSD just gives me a false illusion of it.  In fact, I really do believe this because I was once listening to a lecture by Ram Dass (my hero) where he mentions that during his time living in India, he gave his guru, Neem Karoli Baba, some LSD to try.  The guru tried it on several occasions, and the dose he took was enough to send just about anyone to a mental institution.  But what happened is that when he took the acid he experienced absolutely no change in consciousness whatsoever!  This can only mean one thing, that this guru was already living in such an enlightened state that it was as if he was tripping all the time without any chemicals!  This blew my mind and confirmed my belief that these states can be acheived without any drugs, and that psychedelics are able to merely give us a one-day "preview" of the enlightened state (for those who take them correctly).  I am currently practicing meditation every day and yoga almost every day, only taking LSD about once every week or 2.  Yes, that's still pretty often, but I feel like it always serves to reorient me in the right direction (and it's just plain awesome to experience!)

So my question is, for the above effects that I described in the list...are there any specific forms of meditation and yoga I should be practicing other than what I'm currently doing?  Right now I'm doing a pretty basic meditation technique where I either sit cross-legged or lay down, and just focus my attention on my breath.  I do not control my breathing in any certain way, but I merely observe it.  As for yoga, I haven't delved too deeply into various exercises but I do sun salutations and basic vinyasa sequences.

Have any of the more seasoned meditators on this board experienced first-hand any of the effects I described from my LSD trip, but just from spiritual practices alone?  If so, what kinds of practices did you do?  Should I modify my meditation technique at all?  Should I do any particular mantras or visualizations?  What about practicing mediation right after smoking weed vs meditating sober?  (I do both, but usually sober).  Thanks so much for taking the time to read this whole post.  Any and all input will be highly appreciated!

Dharmic Tui

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2013, 07:25:22 AM »
Just as an overall comment, I would have to say my best insights have been whilst totally sober. To me true insight and equanimity is the result of conscious effort, rather than something that is artificially induced, by using drugs you're less of an active participant in your own mind.

Practiced Vipassana as outlined on this forum or in most books over time will get you to a similar place as you are describing.

Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2013, 07:30:16 AM »
first of all let me post this - " i have LSD experiences " , because i am very sure you will not give any importance to any post posted here if its not from a lsd user.   :D

your constant comparisons of your trip to others and your mind chasing after spiritual experiences or its desire to stay in those states of mind shows that you didnt learn shit from your trips. (pardon my language, thats how it is.)

if all you want is the experience of states of minds or enlightenment, then LSD is your best bet.
this path is not about enlightenment. its about adopting all that in daily life. if thats what you want then its a very difficult and hard path. it requires a lot of effort. it will be years together before you can experience anything like it. but the path itself is so beautiful one falls in love with it and forgets all about the things you are talking about. then after that only these states start to appear.

i can promise you this- you will find peace of mind and happiness in this path.   

Quardamon

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 10:13:40 AM »
Hello TryptamineFriend420,

You show me a view that I did not know existed.

Unfortunately, I had juuuust finished typing a really long and detailed post and Firefox quit as I was posting it and the whole thing was lost.  So I'm gonna try to condense it this time.
Do you have this more often, that chance/ life seems to correct you, you or comment on what you are doing?

A total disappearance of my ADD/ADHD symptoms and an ability to concentrate for hours
This reminds me of something that Grabor Maté, a psychiatrist tells. He uses this picture about ADHD: It is like there is a traffic controller in the brain. In someone with ADHD there is a lot of traffic, a lot of activity. So the controller is very, very active. If you give someone with ADHD something to relax, it can happen that the first one to relax is the traffic controller. So the result will be total chaos. The person with ADHD gets even more active and chaotic. Unfortunately I forgot whether Maté speaks of a substance, or a meditation technique that normally has a quieting effect.
My fantasy is, that SLD makes your traffic controller more sensitive and active.
You might be using a very proper self-medication. I do not know.
Like you say, your situation seems unique.

For the general and innocent reader: Please be prepared that LSD can ruin a life beyond repair. (From what I heard.) No-one was making a recommendation here for the general public.

I mean to say, that you need to know some technical things that most of us do not need to know.
Allan Watts did experiments with LSD with his psychology students over a long period - like more than 10 years. Maybe others know what can be found there.

Your list is impressive. I would guess, that someone would need years of therapy, creative work, meditation and study to achieve that. I think the meditation and yoga techniques you describe are OK. I would not reach / have reached such effects with meditation or yoga alone.

OK. I stop now.

redalert

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2013, 12:04:00 PM »
  Any and all input will be highly appreciated!

Your headed for trouble!
Stop using drugs!
LSD experiences are not enlightenment!

Sylvia1982

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2013, 12:55:21 PM »
My six pence,

I was heavily dependant on Marijuana for years and the reason for this was I got the very benefits that you mention above. Believe me!!!
Confession: It is marijuana that got me into a regular practise of mediation because like you say the after effects were extra ordinary. I would often meditate for longer periods with this aid and was much calmer and grounded to the body.

But I stopped this habit roughly six years ago and more I reflect upon it, more I am convinced that to give up was the best choice.


1. More desire to get to that stage, more likely your dose will increase which I am sure will have side effects both on body and mind.

2.You may always be dependant on the substance.


garyblackhouse

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2013, 01:35:30 PM »
Tryptaminefriend my friend,

I'm presuming (but correct me if I'm wrong) smoking weed is also a pretty common thing? Like some people above (and it's nice to see some people to relate to). I smoked weed most of last year, it was the first year I smoked. I started because I had pretty much all of the anxiety, depressions, lack of motivations, unsociable(ness), fears and so on like you listed. Though it's mild drug, a natural drug, it is what each individual makes it like any other drug. When used moderately with an already peaceful and happy mind, sure, it can be a nice treat or sociable thing.

However, for me, grass was a self-medication for all of these problems I faced. It gave me the quick fix and made me "at one with the world and myself" for a while, but it balances out, then takes you lower than you were before you start taking drugs. Law of nature. I lied to myself about this for some time, I blamed everyone and everything for my short-comings. I couldn't sleep, I couldn't socialize, I couldn't be a musician. etc. etc. Apparently.

My point, drugs will only give you an apparent outlook. As I said, nothing more than some pot for me, but the way this made me feel eventually, I knew other drugs (though they may be bigger, better, faster, more "enlightening") would also swerve the other direction eventually and the come downs would be worse. I didn't want that for myself, I don't want that for anyone. Meditation will give you a relative outlook if done correctly. I thankfully stopped my use of cannabis because I knew other drugs would work for a while, but you have to be smart and understand their nature also, the pendulum will drop to the other side and bring you down further. Drugs will only suppress your problems and bring you to an apparent light, but then your problems will come back.

Analogies are a common thing when reading about meditation: I compare my situation to a brick, at the start you have on brick over your head, you take some drugs, the brick goes away then suddenly comes back with another brick. So you take some more drugs, and these bricks go away then later one they come back with even more bricks. Eventually there are so many bricks over your head you can't hold them up any longer, so down you come a crashing. I experienced this with worse panic attacks, anxiety, depression and confusion when I tried to stop smoking. When I came a crashing, I was ready to change and commit to taking a 10-day-course. I was very thankful for the opportunity to re-build the bricks around me rather than let them weigh heavy upon my shoulders.

Sidenote: You'll probably write some great music on drugs. The Beatles were the greatest, and they wrote the best, a lot of which was on drugs, but a lot of which was time spent meditation also. Meditation will give you ideas, stories and experiences to write about. I'm an excessive writer, amateur performer, self-recorder, in a band and all that myself. But the No. 1 rule of writing is to be honest in your writing, people who enjoy real music want the truth, meditation will help you do this.

Anyway, since taking a Vipassana course and continuing my practice twice a day. I feel balanced, and at ease with my mind. Drugs (in my case, very moderate pot smoking and a few beers every now and then) will be an uncommon event in my daily life. Simply because I prefer my clear mind now, one without intoxicants, and with the hope of continuing on the path and progressing as a mediator and a person, maybe I will stop completely sometime.

I hope this might have helped you. I'm sorry I can't give the perspective from some who has taken LSD. I'm not sorry that I've never gone past marijuana and alcohol to other drugs. I'm thankful I started practicing Vipassana.

All the very best to you,
Peace.

Gary

Wintermute

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2013, 02:12:10 PM »
I am new to Vipassana, however drugs (MDMA and LSD) did have an effect on my initial 'partial awakening' and change of perspective. So in a way, they gave me a kickstart on my spiritual path (read my intro for more detail). (I have been massively abusing marijuana as well, which had catastrophic effects on my life (lack of motivation, vitality, intellect, progress).)

My point of view is, that any form of substance abuse is (the operative word being abuse) is detrimental to your health and through this inevitably to your spiritual progress as well. What abuse is, you have to realize for yourself.

I personally feel cautious about meditating with these substances for two reasons. One is that I have worked very hard to achieve where I am now (which is not much, just some reliable time without anxiety, some good analytical insight to my life and some emotional stability that makes me say and do less stupid things) and I wouldn't want to feel disappointed if I had much deeper sessions with a drug and then not being able to achieve the same results sober. But my main reason, overpowering the first one, is that I do not believe you are able to confidently gain control over your mind and get in touch with reality on drugs. This means that you are actually hallucinating enlightenment and not experiencing it.

This basically results in a simple addiction to an experience you call as enlightenment, that is totally dependent on a substance and leaves you without actual progress. Read back how you describe yourself as sober. I find this THE key insight of your post.

I have a very seasoned and advanced yogi meditator acquaintance, who sometimes (very rarely) uses LSD for meditation, but he is nothing like you describe yourself in daily life. He is composed, determined, sharp and extremely stable, so there may be a point to his experiments and even if it's just entertainment, it doesn't have an effect on his daily routine.

There is also widespread experimentation with LSD and MDMA in psychotherapy, but it helps people who do not even come close to realizing their problems, because massive ego problems.

And just a final comment, I think what you are referring to as Enlightenment is actually an earlier stage, the state of losing the ego. Once that is lost, the world can be viewed for what it is and this learning leads to Enlightenment. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

TryptamineFiend420

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2013, 03:26:44 PM »
Wow, I did not expect to get so many detailed responses so fast.  Thanks everyone!  Seems like you all have pretty varying views on LSD and enlightenment.  I figured I'd get some people saying drugs are bad and all.  Quardamom, very interesting about the analogy of ADHD to traffic.  Makes sense to me.  I guess this is why adderall and other amphetamines calm people with ADHD down, while for most people it hypes them up.  I guess this is also why high doses of marijuana makes my mind race even faster than normal, while most people get the opposite effect from it.  And it would certainly explain why LSD makes a lot of people anxious and speedy and it makes me calm.

Anyway, the first thing I must point out to people who haven't tried specifically LSD, is that it is not like other drugs, infact it is almost opposite in the sense that most drugs decrease mental clarity and LSD can increase it (for some, such as me and my friend who introduced me to it).  As that friend stated "It's like steroids for the brain".  I've actually done rubix cubes, sudoku puzzles, jigsaw puzzles, and the like waaaaay faster than when sober.  So for me personally, my most clear-headed state is when I'm on LSD.  As for Siddarthgode's statement that LSD did not teach me anything, that's not true because had it not been for LSD, I would not know that these states of wholeness and happiness are even possible within my being.  Although it's very hard for me to keep the same experience in day-to-day life as when I'm tripping, the memory of the experiences have endowed me with a sense of hope and a confirmation that I AM capable of becoming the person I want to become.  I just haven't exactly found how yet.

I think what can give a better perspective on my situation, is that LSD just happens to be the medium through which I experienced these things I've always dreamed of experiencing.  THe important point is what I experienced, and the very fact that I did experience this complete change of being, rather than focusing too much on the method I used.  I am hoping to find a kind of spiritual practice that will set me toward uncovering these things in the everyday.  Every time I trip one thing is clear to me; that the LSD is not giving me something that I don't have...it's simply eradicating hindrances that I do have which block my true self from coming through.

Wintermute, you nailed it in your last statement when  you said that what I'm referring to is the loss of the ego.  I think that the ego loss is precisely what's giving me these effects when I take LSD.  My whole mental concept of who I am, as well as my chattering mind just steps aside, and my true self/soul is allowed to shine through.  Like clouds clearing away and allowing the sun to shine through.

So perhaps a better thing for me to ask, rather than "How do I acheive an LSD-like state", would be to ask "How can I work towards deconstructing my ego and quieting my mind enough to be present to the moment and be totally open to what is, rather than having my view of the present moment clouded by the projections of my ego?"

To sum it all up, I think it is my ego that is blocking me from experiencing life fully and richly, and since LSD temporarily removes my ego, it allows me to be more present and open.  However, what I experienced is so organic, that LSD cannot be the only method.  And like I said, Ram Dass's guru Neem Karoli Baba, experienced no effects at all when he took massive amounts of LSD since his mind was already in such a present, open, and expanded state.  In fact, several other gurus and monks that Ram Dass gave some LSD to, simply said things like "It's ok, but not as good as meditation", or "All it did was give me a headache, nothing else unusual."  So the fact that all these super-enlightened beings all had little to no effect from it, says something about it that shows that it is a very unique substance.

Anyway, I do not want to focus too much more on LSD itself, as that is only a method.  What I want to focus on is purely the experience I had of dissolving the cloud of the ego and analytical mind, and allowing the light of my soul to shine through, like the sun and cloud analogy that I mentioned.

Has anyone done any specific meditations, mantras, visualizations, etc that have helped them to break down their egos and reorient their worldview and perception of self?

« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 03:37:32 PM by TryptamineFiend420 »

TryptamineFiend420

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2013, 04:26:09 PM »
Practiced Vipassana as outlined on this forum or in most books over time will get you to a similar place as you are describing.

THanks!  I somehow missed this post my first time reading through.  I will check out the vipassana practices!

Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2013, 04:47:44 PM »
k fiend i have a few confession to make.
i am still grateful for LSD for if it wasnt for LSD i would never have found vipassana. it opened something i always knew was there but was afraid to open all my life.
i still like the profound state LSD takes one to.
if some opportunity arises i still take LSD if i feel like it.
i still think that everyone must see the end of an acid trip.
k last thing , LSD is awesome.  ;D

but here is what i hate about LSD.
its not a path i can walk in. its a flight i can take.
i can never learn and maintain the good things from acid.
LSD doesnt explain why, how, when etc..... so i cannot learn from it.
its an experience that happens on its own, so i have no control over it. so i cant say stop i didnt understand this step. so dont jump.
its a dead end.

the things that you mentioned above, that you learnt from LSD is all that you will learn. its a dead end. you will be chasing a fantasy and wasting time from now on. il guaranty you this, if you only chase the profound states of mind your mind would keep moving backwards without learning anything till the end.

TryptamineFiend420

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2013, 04:57:38 PM »
^I can totally relate.  While it reveals to me very amazing things to work towards, like certain ways of seeing the world, it doesn't tell me the steps that it takes to actually get there.  I do at least know that one of the main goals is to learn how to subdue the ego in a controlled manner.  I agree that it's a dead-end path as far as using it to actually attain everyday enlightenment.  The main reason I still use it is because there are certain days or occasions where I want to do experience that state of being for a specific reason.  For example, I'll take it if I'm going to an amusement park, going snowboarding, going to an awesome concert, or going on a nature excursion.  In that case I'll do it purely to enhance an already extroadinary occasion.  I no longer use it in the everyday/go-about life sense, because I recognize that like you said, it's only a flight, not a path.

Dharmic Tui

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2013, 05:20:12 PM »
That is probably the only benefit of drugs for some users; they can open your mind to other modes of thinking you may have been incapable of seeing. They are of course impermanent, and flawed in that they are chemically induced and not resultant of cognitive evolution.

The largest contrast I can speak of anecdotally is that for me, intoxicants have diminishing returns; you usually end up taking more and more for an ever decreasing benefit. The inverse appears to be true for meditation (thus far). Far cheaper and more rewarding.

Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2013, 05:31:04 PM »
k so now that you understand that, now come back to reality. life is suffering.  :D  I am suffering because I  cant attain something I am craving. I am suffering because I am setting goals.I am suffering because their is no one to show me or tell me what to do. I am suffering because I am not in the present moment accepting it.
k now I make  mind. i will not suffer. i will find a solution to this mess.
k now step one. i will tam this mind.
now go to samatha practice lessons in the forum and take the first step.
k now - i will not give up till i find the changes that are mentioned in the sites  in me,  i dont care how long it takes. i will forget everything and give my full attention to this now.  if i dont like i can always go back to lsd. i still have sooo many years to do it and enjoy. i will work for now no more games lets see where it takes me.


barrec

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2013, 09:43:57 PM »
Allow me also to confess: my favorite experience with drugs involved psychedelic mushrooms. Only did it twice, though, and I have truly little-to-none 'street cred' as far as drugs go. But I can identify with some of what you are expressing, and I appreciate you are looking for ways to improve your experience in life. I've recently turned to meditation to ground my own life.

Though I cannot offer insight into specific techniques that will help you realize your goal, I can only encourage you to keep exploring various practices without the aid of drugs. My reasoning stems from the practical notion that you may not always have access to the drugs that get you to your desired state. But you will always have yourself. And if you can find it within you to reach such a state, you will never lack for, well, anything.

Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2013, 04:18:39 AM »
I do at least know that one of the main goals is to learn how to subdue the ego in a controlled manner. 
this too is wrong. you cannot subdue ego. if you try, it gets bigger the moment you move your attention from it. only way it to understand the cause of its origin. accept the process and ego. observe it equanimusly and not let it go havoc. start observing yourself, samatha practice is the key. you will understand it all.

chintan

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2013, 02:41:33 PM »
I echo what barrec is saying. Some of the experiences which you have listed are similar to what I experienced when I have smoked hash or weed. The only significant experience which I can share is that when I came out of my Vipassana camp there was not desire inside me to smoke pot or to even drink for 6-8 months.

Overtime since then I have picked up on social drinking again and sometimes it goes more than social too but I have not been able to repeat my pre Vipassana experiences with weed / hash despite smoking it with friends... Somethings in me have changed.

Listening to music after being stoned was a favorite past-time.. Listening to music after a Vipassana session is a favorite past time now..

I get the same feeling during the sitting ending metta session which I used to get when I was tripping.. feeling of being one with the all, heightened sense of well being and deep nourishment..

garyblackhouse

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2013, 03:51:08 PM »
Right on chintan. ^^ I usually walk and listen or cook and listen after my evening sit. Yesterday however I stayed sitting and played guitar for an hour. It was nice.

Tfriend420 (just noticed the 420 by the way,  ;) , I think I may have a smoke on this day)
Anyway, I found this thread very interesting and may also help you find answers to your questions. Some good links to other sources included also:
http://www.vipassanaforum.net/forum/index.php/topic,781.msg6312.html#msg6312

Peace.

Mpgkona

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2013, 04:45:54 AM »
I'm surprised to see in the past few days all the comments relating to drugs, and how it "compliments meditation. It's very scary that some people are using meditation to try to achieve drug-like states. This goes beyond intellectual entertainment, and borders somewhat on craziness. I'm certainly no judge, but I feel very strongly that nothing good comes out of drug use in the long run. It will only add to the misery and dukkah we all go through. Regardless of the drug use, seeking a particular feeling, sensation, or euphoria is a complete dead end. By doing this one is essentially playing games with meditation in order to achieve an outcome. Taking drugs to achieve particular mind-body states is really no different than meditating without drugs to achieve these states. It may work in the shirt term, but in the long run this will get one absolutely nowhere. Wisdom is impossible to achieve when one is seeking sensations. For those of you that do use drugs to achieve states of being, how can you be equanimous at all?
When you change the way you look at things the things you look at change.

Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2013, 08:00:49 PM »
I'm surprised to see in the past few days all the comments relating to drugs, and how it "compliments meditation. It's very scary that some people are using meditation to try to achieve drug-like states. This goes beyond intellectual entertainment, and borders somewhat on craziness.
well that is the aim of many many types of meditations. most of the form of meditations are skills developed to enter a state of mind free from negativity atleast for a temporary period. so whats wrong if someone wants to practice it?

Quote
nothing good comes out of drug use in the long run. It will only add to the misery and dukkah we all go through.
only true if one develops craving towards them. if it remains a desire and one sees it as desire and can fulfill that desire or can lets it go just observing then i think it doesnt contribute to misery.

Quote
For those of you that do use drugs to achieve states of being, how can you be equanimous at all?
do you cry? yes? then how can you be happy ever?
lol what does one has to do with the other?
what you are saying is one is able to remain equanimous if one doesnt do drugs?

now i am not justifying drugs here. i just dont like the arguments you put into picture.  :D
i do agree drugs add impurities to consiousness and cleaning all that mess is a extra waste of time when we already have soo much garbage to clean. that doesnt mean one cannot progress on the path if he does drugs.

DarkNightOfNoSoul

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2013, 09:26:07 PM »
Interesting and provocative thread!

TryptamineFiend, I do hear what you're saying. I've sampled a range of drugs myself - marijuana, cocaine, ecstasy, amphetamine, magic mushrooms, and yes LSD.

LSD was definitely the most interesting, and the only drug that came anything close to feeling like a "spiritual" experience to me. The main effects for me were a bit like being in cartoon land - colours, textures, sounds, movements all enhanced in wacky ways. Everything seemed very funny. But also when I was tripping, it felt like I was the one experiencing "true" reality, while all the straight people around me were "asleep" and just didn't get it. The most profound experience for me was one time when I completely lost my sense of self. I had to hide out in a room by myself for a few hours because I didn't know who I was any more. It felt like there were tiny pieces of me scattered all around the room, and I had to gather them together (all the memories, experiences, etc) and put them together again to figure out who I was and what I was doing here.

So some of these experiences do seem similar to what you get from a deep meditative experience - sensory enhancement, a feeling of awakening and peace, experience of "no self". Maybe the fleeting effects of LSD are indeed a "taster" of what a solid meditative practice can bring permanently. But I'm certain they're nothing even close to "enlightenment"! Somehow I don't think enlightenment comes in pill form.

In my own experience, the effects of meditation are very subtle and very slow to develop, and involve maintaining a low, steady level of physiological arousal. You have to be massively disciplined and patient, it can take years. In contrast, drugs are like being wacked on the head, they involve a high level of arousal and there's nothing subtle about their effects. And those effects can be unpleasant as well as pleasant - LSD has sometimes given me an intense fear and paranoia. The list of benefits you've written is too good to be true, at least over the long term.

So I have to say (and this is only my opinion), I strongly doubt drugs will get you vary far in terms of spiritual practice. What you've talked about here is just chasing experiences, chasing excitement and thrills, a stimulating but ultimately pointless sensual buzz. This is the complete opposite of the spiritual path, and will likely lead you away from enlightenment, not towards it. Case in point - for me, I'm pretty sure my past drug experiences have actually impeded my meditation practice. Often when I come close to a sense of peace, or dissolution, or what might be a jhana state, I get all excited and expect to go into some trippy, magical experience like being on acid. That very expectation and sense of excitement (= high physiological arousal) immediately destroys whatever was happening (which requires calmness and low arousal).

After my first 10-day retreat, I gradually began to lose all interest in drinking and drugs. I've been completely drug-free and alcohol-free for nearly six years now and don't plan on ever going back. Too temporary, too out-of-control, ultimately disappointing and followed by a feeling of malaise that sometimes lasts hours, sometimes days. Real life seems pale and grey in comparison to the stimulating effects of ecstasy or acid. That's the basis of a psychological addiction right there.

These days I'm a grad student in neuroscience, so I've also learned a bit about how chronic drug use can mess around big time with important neurotransmitters in your brain such as dopamine and serotonin. Believe me, you really don't want to do that - with long-term, heavy use (3 times a week you say?!) you're opening yourself up to the risk of mental illness - things like severe anxiety, depression, and psychotic episodes. Totally not worth the risk just for a temporary buzz followed by a shitty comedown IMHO. Not to mention the expense and the legal risk.

Of course, in the end it's up to you. If it's just sensual thrills you're after, knock yourself out. I'm sure you'll probably carry on anyway. But I'd definitely encourage you to continue long term with your daily meditation routine, and would urge you to try a retreat too if you haven't already. But be patient and let go of any expectations of some trippy drug-like experience, this is not what it's about.

redalert

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2013, 09:48:33 PM »
I'm surprised to see in the past few days all the comments relating to drugs, and how it "compliments meditation. It's very scary that some people are using meditation to try to achieve drug-like states. This goes beyond intellectual entertainment, and borders somewhat on craziness. I'm certainly no judge, but I feel very strongly that nothing good comes out of drug use in the long run. It will only add to the misery and dukkah we all go through. Regardless of the drug use, seeking a particular feeling, sensation, or euphoria is a complete dead end. By doing this one is essentially playing games with meditation in order to achieve an outcome. Taking drugs to achieve particular mind-body states is really no different than meditating without drugs to achieve these states. It may work in the shirt term, but in the long run this will get one absolutely nowhere. Wisdom is impossible to achieve when one is seeking sensations. For those of you that do use drugs to achieve states of being, how can you be equanimous at all?

Great post Mpgkona,
Drugs will keep you a sleep, meditation is to wake up to the present moment as it is, not as we would like it to be.

Mpgkona

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2013, 01:21:43 AM »
Siddarthgode:

By putting substances into your body and believing you can be equanimous to these manufactured feelings is an absolute contradiction. Just the mere act of putting drugs into your body, one is by definition trying to utterly produce pleasant sensations, in a completely unnatural way. One may think they are being equanimous, however, and I dont think im going out on a limb here, you cannot be equanimous when you are doing this. Its a complete paradox, and definitely not a good one. I hope i restated my above comment a little better.
When you change the way you look at things the things you look at change.

Vivek

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2013, 02:29:33 AM »
You have made your point very clear, Mpgkona. And you are right on spot.

Any justification that tries to put using drugs on a level equivalent to meditation is simply that, mere justification, and has no basis on truth. Insight practices which aim to develop Vipassana have nothing in common with drugs. In the context of Vipassana, any statements in the line of "drugs or other substance use is valid", is to be rejected.

TryptamineFiend420, the above comments are not meant in an offensive way and neither intended to be a reason for having guilt-trips etc. As others above have advised you, keep to your meditative practice. We are all here because we understand the fact that there is suffering and to help each other be freed from it. Even the illusion that one is progressing spiritually through substance-use is also a form of suffering. We will understand that only when we come out of the illusion. Do whatever you can to come out of your addictions, including seeking professional help. We all have some kind of addiction or another, though not necessarily due to substance-use. Each one will need to work diligently to come out of one's own addictions.

 
Let's go beyond this illusion, shall we?

Dharmic Tui

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Re: Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2013, 10:04:42 AM »
Siddarthgode:

By putting substances into your body and believing you can be equanimous to these manufactured feelings is an absolute contradiction. Just the mere act of putting drugs into your body, one is by definition trying to utterly produce pleasant sensations, in a completely unnatural way. One may think they are being equanimous, however, and I dont think im going out on a limb here, you cannot be equanimous when you are doing this. Its a complete paradox, and definitely not a good one. I hope i restated my above comment a little better.
But is Vipassana any different really? Is it really natural, to go against our inherent instincts which lead us to craving and aversion? Quite the contrary in my opinion, there's nothing natural about turning off this subconscious algorithm and seeking a life free of suffering. The core difference as you have touched on is the diminishing return of drugs and their tendency to lead to more craving, but when you break it down to it's base element it's all really sides of the same coin, we are all seeking happiness or an escape from our hedonistic treadmills (or not suffering, if you would prefer).