psychedelic drugs and meditation

[Black Feet]

Also I must correct my termanology, as I was actually doing annapana, not vipassana... Also(as the start of this post mentions DMT(have also done annapana on DMT)). Now there is alot said about DMT, I use to hang out with people that thought it would help them become enlightened, it was(and still is) a religion to them. Now as DMT is supposed to be the feeling when your born and when you die, alot of people actually think they die when they smoke DMT(of course cause thats the initial effect of DMT, but even once they come out of the trip, they still think that they died, and they take the drug over and over again, and each time they think that they actually die). DMT is a drug and you are not actually dieing... you are just very high, and drugs mess with your mind and make you think lots of crazy stuff, especially things as powerfull as DMT. and in the end it is not seeing things as they really are, it is just seeing things in a distorted messed up way. Just thought I'd post this as there is alot of misconception on DMT.

[CameronJ]

Let's not forget about the all-important Set and Setting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_and_setting

We all approach drugs or anything else from our own unique context.  I always found that psychedelics gave me a different, but equally valid perspective on things, which had the effect of shaking up my habitual way of perceiving.  They can be useful in creatively negotiating sticky situations, and finding new direction.  For several years, I used weed about once a week for this purpose, including during meditation, and overall it was a valuable tool. 

Of course, any good tool can outlive its usefulness and come to be mostly an obstacle or addiction.  But isn't the nature of weening ourselves off of the world to employ whatever tools/fixations we find to be most helpful in progressively more restrictive, less dependent ways?  I think what's important is to bring increasingly greater awareness to our choices, and as soon as something no longer makes sense, drop it and move on.

If you've realized "beginner's mind," you won't need anything to alter your perspective because you have no perspective; otherwise, psychedelics might be a reasonable choice depending on the situation.  But, yeah, if you're just indulging or getting blown away, and aren't learning from or integrating the experience, it's gonna have serious consequences.

[Black Feet]

Drugs are Drugs, they are distractions. I use to take magic mushrooms for spiritual reasons, that is the reason I got into magic mushrooms, as I had read much about spiritual experiences on mushrooms, but soon relized that they were drugs and all they do is mess with your mind. And I did have amazing experiences on them, but the only thing I ended up learning from drugs is that they mess with your mind (you can have as many epiphany's as you want but in the end your just getting high, i remember when i first started using mushrooms, at one point i thought I had become Enlightend) and give you a distorted perception on reality. Not that I regret taking drugs at all, for me it was all just part of growing up. And I am very aware of set and setting, and manifestation of the mind....

[CameronJ]

Odin, I'd say for some, the experience is more akin to "getting high" as you say, but for others it's more of a challenge.  For example, I liked to use drugs while meditating outside in the cold weather to soften my aversion to the cold or when I was sick to again soften my aversion to what was going on in my body.  And as far as the epiphanies go, if you don't jump from one to the next in stultified amazement, you can relate them in very direct ways to normal consciousness.  I got pretty good at identifying ones that seemed to have potential and sticking with them long enough to establish a good connection to normal consciousness without dwelling on them so long that the trip was compromised.  If you're careful to pick up all the pieces afterwards and you come to get a good sense for how much you need to write down (or however you remember things) to do that, you can confidently postpone arriving at full closure on each epiphany while your tripping.  Afterwards, the important work of consciously integrating the realizations into every-day life begins.  How well this is done determines the value of the trip.

[Black Feet]

I know what your trying to say dude, I've thought it all before! I too could relate it all to "normal" conciousness. I've relized things on drugs that I still stand by even to this day, but I didn't need to take drugs to relize these things, I was just high when I did, relize them. And it's when people relize things on drugs that they think "hey the drug helped me!", but this is merely an illusion, it is all just the trick of time. And you use drugs to soften your aversion...?! You are missing the point of meditation. You talk about not liking something so you indulgde in a drug and satisfy your cravings, and block out the things you don't like, instead of stengthening your mind to deal with these things. But I'm sick of trying to explain to druggo's how drugs mess with the mind and that they're are merely a distraction. And I've got too many friends that think like this to put up with, so I really can't be bothered talkin about this anymore.... peace out.

[CameronJ]

OK, brother, one last reply...with utmost respect to you.

In an absolute sense, I didn't need drugs either, but they were a good choice for me at the time.  For someone to tell me otherwise is absurd.  It's like me telling you that this message board is "merely a distraction," something "you indulge in" to "satisfy your cravings, and block out the things you don't like", and that it'll "mess with the mind."  Instead you should simply "strengthen the mind," cause you'll quickly recognize the impermanence of internet access as soon as someone kidnaps you and locks you in their basement for 50 years.  Remember, set and setting.  Recognize the limits of reasoning through introspection...and that all the things that you consider helpful right now are also ultimately unnecessary but may still be a reasonable choice at this time.

[Andrew]

The story we tell ourselves about whatever it is we have been through creates our reactions, we never want to walk away from 'what makes sense' in our story.

the advice I think is the soundest is simple;  if you are addicted to this forum (or any other internet activity) -turn off the computer and get outside for a while and have a look at the world without a screen, if you are addicted to drugs, stop taking them and have a look at the world around with the eyes you were born with.

It's not always (ever) easy, but the more you can look at what it feels like being 'you', with equanimity, the better.

[2cdod]

I don't have some mindfull post to add to this thread, but I want to share a document about psychedelics and meditation that I found really interesting. I honestly don't know if psychedelics can be good or bad for your meditation practice, but Stolaroff wrote some interesting shit on the subject!

if you are addicted to drugs, stop taking them and have a look at the world around with the eyes you were born with.

My to cent (I try to do so right now): Instead of trying to stop using drugs (I speak about intoxicants and not psychedelics), watch why you take them, when do you feel the need to take them, watch what changes in your mind are done, your reaction with that, whatch watch watch again and again before taking, while taking, after taking.

[siddharthgode]

i think its k to do anything as long as we are not braking shilla. and intoxicating is there in shilla only because it helps to brake other 4 and  also helps to reduce awareness. if anybody takes LSD a day n not brake other 4 , also after doing not make a big deal out of it and is able to maintain calm and equanimus mind and gets back to work of removing old sangharas he is good to do pyschedelics.

i dont want to judge anybody but the post show whoever is asking is not having a peace of mind and running after something. so its dangerous for you all to do psychedelics.