Labeling thoughts

[rob]

I read/hear conflicting views on the process of labeling and/or separating thoughts as part of the practice. I've heard some teachers say that, as you become aware of thoughts that pull you away from your breathing or your body, you should label them. "Anger". "Distraction". "Desire", etc.

Also reading a resource posted here on VPF, it reads:

The Buddha: ...Before even, o monks, my awakening, as yet an unawakened, the awakening searching, this thought occured to me: “What now if I were to dwell (exercise) breaking up my thoughts and dividing them into two”? And I, o monks, whenever a thought of sensual desire, a thought of ill-will or a detrimental thought arose, I put it on one side, and whenever a thought of renunciation, a thought of non-ill-will and not detrimental arose, I put it on the other side…and I knew: “In me arose a detrimental thought. This thought will lead to my own disadvantage, it will lead to other’s disadvantage, it will lead to both, it destroys my wisdom, it will bring trouble, it will not lead to cessation.” – (When I was thinking) “Leads to my own disadvantage” thus o monks reflecting [patisancikkhati] that thought vanished. (When I was thinking) “Leads to others disadvantage” thus o monks reflecting that thought vanished...”will destroy my wisdom, cause trouble, does not lead to cessation.” that thought vanished.

This seems to quite clearly show that the Buddha both advocated and employed the practice of identifying, judging, labeling and separating thoughts.

Bhante Henepola Gunaratana, in "Mindfulness in Plain English" discusses Buddhist thinkers dividing thoughts into the categories "skillful" and "unskillful".

At the same time, I've read and heard lectures from various other sources (including just in discussion on this forum) that claim we should not judge or label thoughts.

Unless I'm missing something, this seems to be a point of confusion and contention. Any thoughts?

[Matthew]

rob,

A question with as many answers as there are Buddhists perhaps. The Buddha was not simply labelling thoughts in the quote above but delving into them, contemplating them, using insight to see where they lead: to wholesome or unwholesome outcomes.

Simple labelling as thoughts arise can become a prop or hypnotic or even a way of not delving into them, contemplating them, using insight etc ....

During the early stages of gathering your concentration some people find labelling useful as an aid, but to be dropped along the way. Pure single minded concentration and establishing yourself in the bliss states may precede the insight stage or follow it. It seems clear from the Buddha's teachings that concentration and bliss are prerequisites to insight/contemplation reaching their fullest potential though.

Kind regards,

Matthew

[Billymac629]

I think labeling thoughts can be a very productive practice..  Many times we don't observe our thoughts closely enough...  To say "yes this is craving" or "this is wanting"..  Labeling helped me with seeing anger and wanting when they came up...  Also for liking and disliking.  I know Bhante G is not a big fan of it, however he teaches to use it when the mind wanders alot.  Which has been happening to me lately. Alot of day dreaming I've been noticing in my practice. I seem to be sinking deeper into relaxation, which I was told can be a hindrance (drowsiness).
Any way I say if it helps use it.. If not don't. I know Jack Kornfield advocates it.. So does Salzeberg and Goldstein.

[Cilla]

This seems to quite clearly show that the Buddha both advocated and employed the practice of identifying, judging, labeling and separating thoughts.

Rob this quote is about reflecting. Its not about meditation. He is cultivating mindfulness of thoughts. He is not labelling them etc. He is simply saying he is aware of this or that nature of them. He is not putting words on them.

To say you "know" something is not to say you labelled it or named it.

He talks elsewhere about the theory of experiences being pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, but i am not sure if in meditation he is saying to make a thing of labelling them.

I think simple awareness of whether something is pleasant or unpleasant is easy enough. You see labelling means consciously putting a word on things. Yes some  teachers say to to do this. I think this could be helpful for some people who are really out of touch with their feelings. I think it could be helpful for beginners but ultimately i don't think its what we are trying to do.

Maybe do it when you are not in sitting meditation. Try to become more aware and mindful when you are doing other activities and try noticing or labelling them then. But in sitting meditation itself, try to keep it pure (free of words and thinking and thought and concepts and such), just come back to the breath if you mind wanders or come back to pure awareness of sensations etc. But let all your thoughts go.

I think this passages sounds like awareness of thoughts. He is not thinking about his thoughts, he says he observed a thought and he was able to let it go.

He is not doing the sort of meditation that we are trying to learn.  He is talking about reflecting which is a process of thinking also. So i would say, put this aside until you have grasped the more basic skills.

It in this method of reflecting, he is cultivating awareness of thoughts.

Keep it separate from your meditation. If you want to practice this, keep it separate from your sitting meditation.

But back to your other points that it is contentious, well again if you were working with a wise teacher, he/she would be able to discern whether this technique of labelling would be useful for you but ultimately you would be instructed to drop it. Those against it are probably trying to make sure you keep yoru mediation pure.

You make your own decision but for now don't do it in your sitting meditation.

[Andrew]

It would seem there is some evidence for buddha advocating a form of 'noting', this was link to by nick on his blog, very enlightening...

http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2008/03/28/iti-and-sallakkheti/

Edit: for the sake of the thread I find the most effective method for me at the moment is to 'notice myself noticing'. Notice myself 'meditating', notice myself 'trying' notice all the miriad of 'ordinary things'. They are not so ordinary when watched.

to put it in spy vs spy terms; who is watching the watcher? 

[rob]

Andrew--

That's exactly where I lifted that passage from.

Thanks for the clarification, everyone. In the intro class I've been taking, there is one teacher and then the opportunity to meet individually with up to 5 other seasoned instructors. A few of them have touched on this point, but the opinions vary as I stated in my original post.

I can see how it would be beneficial, but the way it's presented just seemed to be straddling the line of judgement or running from the unpleasant or introducing a narrative.

[Cilla]

I'm not convinced yet. Why does he put brackets and inverted commas around the words thinking and impermanence when its not in the pali version, especially around the word thinking? Its very strange punctuation he's used.

If you know the theory well, you don't need to label anything. You can know. When you have pain in your legs, you know it will pass. Getting to the stage of knowing that the pain in your legs will pass, may indeed take some practice, but do you need to label it? You certainly don't need to label a pain in the leg as a pain in the leg. On the other hand, noting that the pain will pass can be helpful.

If something is helpful, do it but don't keep on doing it. Its just a tool for beginners who may not be used to knowing what they are experiencing, who may not be used to knowing what they are feeling.

I'd say  it may be better to practice this labeling practice when you are not in sitting meditation.

[Cilla]

http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2009/02/13/mindfulness-is-not-sati/

Seems to me this author is just good at confusing things. Fristly i'd note that in the goenka retreat i have just done, he does not instruct us to note or label.

If you read right down in this post, basically he's using the word noting as noticing. And when he mentions right and wrong mindfulness, there is a description of what is wrong mindfulness, ie putting your mindfulness experiences into yet more words. So don't do that. Don't label anything. Just notice what is going on. Observe. Watch. Don't label. Know!

I think the author successfully has confused the whole issue. It may be that mayadaw ... has used the words label and noting but i am not familiar with this teacher's work.

Yes i know jack kornfield talks about labelling your thoughts. I suspect its problematic actually because it would take your deeper into your thoughts. If you are happy to be reflecting on the thoughts that enter your mind then it might help you to be able to conceptualise them in order to be more aware of your feelings. But it seems to me that the more i learn about buddhism and meditation that the less room there is for thought and thinking.

Thinking is part of the root of our problems. So meditation teaches us a way to use our mind without thinking.

But there is a time for thinking. And then we can use to tools to help us understand our thoughts more correctly, with less projection and delusion, less ego and less of all those things that actually cause the problems. It helps to know when our thoughts are paranoid. It helps to know when what is driving our thoughts is fear, or feelings of rejection. But this is not part of meditation.

It is not clear to me whether buddhism actually has the tools to help us understand out thoughts so well anyway though it is helpful to be able to look at our thoughts and experiences in terms of whether there is greed or aversion. If you do not understand the way your mind works, i can thoroughly recommend psychotherapy and i can tell you that quite a few buddhist monks and teachers have taken this route up  as well, even after having meditated for years, which suggests that its not the be all and end all after all. I can tell you with certainty because i've done psychotherapy.

It teaches you how to reflect on your experiences (mental, emotional as well as physical) more effectively.

Meditation has its place but it has a different place i've come to realise. And certainly if one has already learnt in therapy how to reflect well, then your meditation will go much better.

[nibs]

I think labeling (noting) can lead to very quick progress if one wishes to do so. It can be dropped at later stages, but it certainly has proved useful for many yogis aiming for such progress. Here are some testimonies of the technique's efficacy.

http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2011/04/yogi-tool-box-benefits-of-noting.html

 If it doesn't work for you though, don't use it. Also, probably best not to make any absolute statements about its efficacy either because it doesn't work for you or you have never actually applied it for certain prolonged periods or you don't know how to do it effectively.

Noting, according to the guy who made it popular, Mahasi Sayadaw, can lead directly to what he calls 'fruition' as well as higher paths. Also paraphrasing Mahasi, he does say the noticing is what takes priority over noting/labeling and should always precede it. You can't note something that hasn't been noticed first (unless mechanically noting whatever).

Effectively noting thoughts, preceded by actually noticing them first, does not lead to 'taking one deeper into their thoughts' in my own experience but leads to a process of objectification, dis-identification (as pertaining to a 'self') and seeing the three characteristics in all their glory manifest from moment to moment. It also leads to seeing right through and breaking up  of the (illusory) 'selfing' process if done effectively.

Nick

* http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mahasi/progress.html

[Billymac629]

Well said nick,
I actually studied Mahasi Sayadaw's method for a short period... and really saw some benefits from doing it..  Some reasons for the labeling were:
1. It keeps you honest with yourself (if distractions occur you label them..   if you are wanting, label it..  if bored, label it..  if thinking, label it) all can become objects of meditation
2. It helps with concentration in the beginning
3. It creates a clear thought (when you have a thought label it "thinking" not "I'm thinking"..  hearing a sound is just "hearing") there is no extras with it .. its bare
4.  It also helps with the natural mind chatter

http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2009/02/13/mindfulness-is-not-sati/
Fristly i'd note that in the goenka retreat i have just done, he does not instruct us to note or label.

If you read right down in this post, basically he's using the word noting as noticing. And when he mentions right and wrong mindfulness, there is a description of what is wrong mindfulness, ie putting your mindfulness experiences into yet more words. So don't do that. Don't label anything. Just notice what is going on. Observe. Watch. Don't label. Know!

I think the author successfully has confused the whole issue. It may be that mayadaw ... has used the words label and noting but i am not familiar with this teacher's work.

Yes i know jack kornfield talks about labelling your thoughts. I suspect its problematic actually because it would take your deeper into your thoughts. If you are happy to be reflecting on the thoughts that enter your mind then it might help you to be able to conceptualise them in order to be more aware of your feelings. But it seems to me that the more i learn about buddhism and meditation that the less room there is for thought and thinking.

Thinking is part of the root of our problems. So meditation teaches us a way to use our mind without thinking.

But there is a time for thinking. And then we can use to tools to help us understand our thoughts more correctly, with less projection and delusion, less ego and less of all those things that actually cause the problems. It helps to know when our thoughts are paranoid. It helps to know when what is driving our thoughts is fear, or feelings of rejection. But this is not part of meditation.

It is not clear to me whether buddhism actually has the tools to help us understand out thoughts so well anyway though it is helpful to be able to look at our thoughts and experiences in terms of whether there is greed or aversion. If you do not understand the way your mind works, i can thoroughly recommend psychotherapy and i can tell you that quite a few buddhist monks and teachers have taken this route up  as well, even after having meditated for years, which suggests that its not the be all and end all after all. I can tell you with certainty because i've done psychotherapy.

It teaches you how to reflect on your experiences (mental, emotional as well as physical) more effectively.

Meditation has its place but it has a different place i've come to realise. And certainly if one has already learnt in therapy how to reflect well, then your meditation will go much better.

Cilla, am I correct in understanding that you believe that buddhist meditation is to help us get rid of our thoughts??  If so i dont believe that is correct..  Not get rid, but help understand our thoughts..  There are actually some meditations that are just for thinking..  Called "Thought Meditation" in Tibet..  It is also in the Theravada tradition as well...  Trying to get rid of thoughts in meditation is a big disaster in my experience..  learning to except thoughts in meditation actually removes them as a distraction.  Not looking to chase after thoughts, but just to observe when they arise.

Goenka would not teach noting or labeling because that is not his lineage.. He didnt learn meditation that way... 
Also there is nothing to special about Mahasi method..  He uses words but is not the first to use words in meditation..  Mantra meditation is thousands of years old..  Many branches of buddhism still use it.. 

The more you study the more you are going to find out that there are many many many different methods of meditation....
In your meditation you might suppress your thoughts or thinking but that is not the way of all meditations...

with metta

[rob]

You guys continue to open my mind 

So, if one chooses to label thoughts, how exact should they be?

For example, if someone insults my sneakers and I get ticked off... do I label that anger because I'm angry? Or do I have to think it out until I arrive at the conclusion that it's insecurity, and then label it as such? Is it dangerous to mis-label emotions or thoughts because you don't yet understand their root causes?

[Billymac629]

label things as they come up..  If angry then "anger"..  don't get too hung up on using the right word or words all the time..  Its the noticing that is important..  They dont use it as a pondering kind of thing..  Your just noting what is... Right now in the present..   If your angry then note anger..  if your feeling insecure then note that.. .  its not so much the word then the experiencing of things..   People are correct when they stated that it is taught to let go of the noting once mindfulness is strong... 
They take great care to let you know that the actual word you use isn't the important thing in the practice.  So no.. nothing dangerous about mis-labeling..  and if your unsure then note "unsure" or "confusion" or "uncertain" or "questioning" or "doubting"..  see what i mean?  you can use any of those labels and its fine..   And with your example you should defintely note "doubting".. lol

metta

[Billymac629]

Like i said before...  if your interested try it..  if it works then use it... If not then don't use it.. 
metta

[Cilla]

Cilla, am I correct in understanding that you believe that buddhist meditation is to help us get rid of our thoughts??  If so i dont believe that is correct..  Not get rid, but help understand our thoughts..  There are actually some meditations that are just for thinking..  Called "Thought Meditation" in Tibet..  It is also in the Theravada tradition as well...  Trying to get rid of thoughts in meditation is a big disaster in my experience..  learning to except thoughts in meditation actually removes them as a distraction.  Not looking to chase after thoughts, but just to observe when they arise.

Goenka would not teach noting or labeling because that is not his lineage.. He didnt learn meditation that way... 
Also there is nothing to special about Mahasi method..  He uses words but is not the first to use words in meditation..  Mantra meditation is thousands of years old..  Many branches of buddhism still use it.. 

The more you study the more you are going to find out that there are many many many different methods of meditation....
In your meditation you might suppress your thoughts or thinking but that is not the way of all meditations...

No i am not saying that buddhist meditation is to help us get rid of our thoughts. Buddhism suspects and distrusts most thought and thinking and meditation is a way of using the mind to help us spend less time thinking, to slow our thoughts down perpahs and yes to enable to think more effectively.

When i use the word thought, it is slightly different from the word thoughts. One meaning of "Thought" is thinking. Buddhism doesn't want us to do too much thinking. At least not as much we normally do.

 "Thoughts" on the other hand are more like are like perceptions. Indeed the buddhism conceives of the mind as a sense organ, though a special one. It mediates our other sensory perceptions and often its the case that its interpretation of is inaccurate. Remember that buddhism tries to teach us to see reality as it is. When we process all our perceptions with thinking, we often add layers of inaccurate meaning and interpretation to them that are not actually there. Eg, we're lying in bed in the night and we hear a sound. A frightened type of person might immediately think that there is an intruder in the house and they will become fearful and this can lead to all sorts of follow on which may not be helpful and the poor person could end up spending the whole night lying awake in fear. Whereas if someone who is more rational lying in bed hears a sound, they know something moved but they might not necessarily know what it is. And even if they may try to make some guesses about what it could be, the know the only way to be sure is to go and check. When they get downstairs and discover it was jsut the cat knocking over something, they can go back to bed feeling quite relaxed and fall asleep again quickly.

When we meditate, we are usually instructed to let our thoughts go and to keep coming back to the breath or sensations or whatever and to keep our attention there and not on our thoughts. This is training the mind not to be caught up in our thoughts and learning to see reality more acutely and perceptively, among other things.

I don't know actually know about the tibetan thinking meditations you are referring to. I do know that the buddha spends time reflecting on things but this is not strictly speaking meditation as far as i am aware. I have seen a lot of tibetan meditations which are quite involved but they are not of the kind where we get involved with our thoughts.

The meditation use of mantras is not thinking. The words are akin to the breath. They are used partly to keep ourselves from engaging with our own thoughts and to develop concentration. 

[Billymac629]

Ok Cilla,
I think we are actually closer to talking about the same thing then not...  When I say noticing thoughts, that's what I mean "just noticing".. Not getting entangled in them or chasing after them... Just observing them...  It's like the mountain saying... They say if you're in the mountain then you cannot see the mountain, but if your not in the mountain then you can see the mountain... If you're observing your thoughts then you cannot be in your thoughts or thinking thoughts...  When thoughts come up we just observe that had a thought, let go, and go back to the breath.

And my mentioning mantra had nothing to do with thoughts.. I was talking about the use of words or language being used in meditation.. Because that's what labeling is, using words..not thinking...  You repeat words like "rising" and "falling" when the abdoman moves out and in when we breathe.. you're noting whatever the actual experience is happening in the present..  if the mind wanders, you note "wandering" and the go back the rising and falling..

Metta

[Cilla]

Yeah i know mantra is use of words and labelling is use of words. Its not the use of words that is hte problem.

Rob gave a good example of how one might end up getting caught up in thinking in the search for the right label. But of course with some decent instruction this could be remedied very quickly.

I don't think labelling is a huge problem. It can be helpful. If you are trying to develop concentration perhaps its a practice that might be better done outside of meditation just in the course of mindfulness throughout the day.

[Quardamon]

Maybe it is superfluous, but I still write a reaction:

For example, if someone insults my sneakers and I get ticked off... do I label that anger because I'm angry? Or do I have to think it out until I arrive at the conclusion that it's insecurity, and then label it as such?

If you were fast, you would label: "getting ticked off", and maybe find that hardly a serious anger arises. If the anger is there, you note: "anger".
It might happen, that after the anger has come visiting several times, you spontaneously see, that there is insecurity behind the anger. In that case you label / note: "insecurity".

Is it dangerous to mis-label emotions or thoughts because you don't yet understand their root causes?

I disagree slightly with Bill here: If you mislabel, the labelling is not effective. I was taught, that it can even be confusing, but I never had that myself.
I sometimes concentrate on a present feeling that I badly understand - like I keep it in place - to have a good look at it and find a proper naming. So then I might find: "Ah, this is a fear of being overwhelmed", and I label it as "fear" or "fear of being overwhelmed".

(But still the art is not to go digging.
I mean: If one starts searching for fear, or anger, one will find it. Tons of it. There is plenty of it in the world. There have been a few moments, that I simply stopped my practice hour, because I felt some huge lump was coming up and I would not be able to handle it.    . . .    I am getting carried away.    Maybe I am talking to someone else.    Sorry.    )

I hope this helps.