Author Topic: Meat or murder?  (Read 11569 times)

Matthew

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Meat or murder?
« on: April 05, 2008, 09:54:03 AM »
I gave up eating meat yesterday.

Today someone sent me this link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LHoyB81LnE
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 09:56:04 AM by The Irreverent Buddhist »
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Stefan

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Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2008, 01:44:36 PM »
 :o :o :o

When I saw your video, a part of my brain kept thinking "That's a trick ... how did they fake this?" That's because most of the time you can see his trunk only, and my mind enjoyed "seeing" the arm of a man inside a fake trunk ...


http://youtube.com/watch?v=3oYYXfM1Jw0

This one is good because you can see the whole elephant drawing.

I stopped eating meat ten years ago, I'd like to encourage everybody to try it.

Metta to you & all the elephants, Stefan
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 02:00:10 PM by stefan »
anicca

Green Tara

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Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2008, 08:22:22 PM »
Meat or murder?
Murder
"Samsaric beings! Cling not to worldly pleasures.  Enter the great city of liberation”

Stefan

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Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2008, 10:40:17 PM »
As a biologist I need to add that as a vegetarian you have to kill plants ...

Living on pranic energy only is a high goal for mankind (plants reached this goal already)

Metta to all living beings & sorry for eating you, Stefan
anicca

Green Tara

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Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2008, 07:58:39 AM »
As a biologist I need to add that as a vegetarian you have to kill plants ...
Living on pranic energy only is a high goal for mankind (plants reached this goal already)
Maybe that is why it is easier to eat them, they are evolved enough to have noself :)
What put me off meat among other things is the blood and the suffering of the animal , I have never seen a tomato trying so hard not to be picked. But I have seen a cow fighting so hard not to be dragged to the slaughterhouse.
"Samsaric beings! Cling not to worldly pleasures.  Enter the great city of liberation”

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
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  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2008, 01:53:28 PM »
I can add I "re-gave up" eating meat. I only started eating it again four years or so ago because a Buddhist monk told me I would die if I didn't eat meat. Now I don't want any more animals to die for my tummy and my health will improve too I think. It's also part of a larger giving up of things which has so far included all alcohol and all caffeine in the last ten days, a reduction in the amount of prescribed medications I take, and plans for more to come.

But yes Tara, you are right, murder, not meat. And thanks for the second video Stefan :)

In the Dhamma,

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Flipasso

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Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2008, 04:30:35 PM »
As a biologist I need to add that as a vegetarian you have to kill plants ...
As a neurofisiology student I need to add that plants don't have Central Nervous System so they don't feel.
Maybe that is why it is easier to eat them, they are evolved enough to have noself :)
It's the first time I've heard that plants are more evolved in the spiritual hierarchy. It's an interesting theory.
I'm a vegetarian, but I eat meat once or twice a week, when I go to my grandma's and so. I do this because it's simpler and because it keeps me saner. [Never eating meat unbalances me a bit]

Stefan

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Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2008, 05:46:54 PM »
When I did my first Vipassana retreat I had the vision of plants being high developed yogis. Went to the meditation hall, passed by a birch, suffered one hour from trying to sit motionless, then came out again, and there was this birch, still standing in the sunlight in perfect asana, enjoying herself ... eating sunlight, motionless or moving gently in the wind in a beautiful Tai-Chi-Dance. Then I went to have lunch, got fed by the plants ... they are sort of angels who help us in our attempt to become spiritually developed.

Of course a tomato won't fight back. Tomatoes are quite relaxed beings compared to a nervous cow ... We animals are quite closed organisms. We carry our organs inside, well hidden. Plants, they expond their organs to the outside: the flowers and the leaves.

Yes, plants don't have a nervous system. Their cells are far more complex than our simple animal cells. They are able to transfer complex signals directly from cell to cell throughout the whole plant without the need of developing specified neural cells.

Wow, plants ...

Metta to our green protectors and to you&you, Stefan

« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 05:47:24 PM by stefan »
anicca

Flipasso

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Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2008, 07:54:55 PM »
Stefan, have you ever heard of that experience where the "scientist" (whose name I can't remember) plugs a ploygraph to a plant and tries to burn it?
He does this. And when he lights the match with the intention of burning the plant the plant registers physiological stress.
And afterwards he tries to show his friend the trick. He lights a match but with no intention of burning the plant, so the plant doesn't show stress.
Sometime later he gets mad and lights the match again to burn the plant and it shows stress.
Conclusion: Plants have telepathy, or telempathy or something.
EDIT - Scientist's name is Cleve Backster - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleve_Backster
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 10:30:39 PM by Flipasso »

hardik_bavishi_79

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Can plants feel like animals?
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2008, 09:11:15 AM »
I am happy that ppl here care not only for feelings of animals but also plants.  More inputs: 

Jainism is the religion which goes to extremities of non-violence and cares for every living-being: insects, plants and microbes. 

An Indian scientist, Jagdish Chandra Bose, was perhaps the first one to say that plants can feel.  "In his research in plant stimuli, he showed with the help of his newly invented crescograph that plants responded to various stimuli as if they had nervous systems like that of animals."  You may follow 'Plant research' in this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagadish_Chandra_Bose

Flipasso

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Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2008, 10:53:54 PM »
In jainism... what do people eat?
Are they fruitarian?
I don't know to what point, after reading the article, the thesis that plants actually feel is accepted by the scientific comunity. But he has surely done some interesting scientific works.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2008, 02:18:58 AM by Flipasso »

hardik_bavishi_79

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Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2008, 10:24:28 AM »
Jainism is more strict in what can you eat and what not:
Meat, fish, eggs, etc.
Onion, Garlic, Potato, ginger, etc. all that grows inside soil
Wine, Tobacco, etc.
Green leafy vegetables not allowed on certain days as per lunar calendar
no food allowed when sun is not visible in sky
observing of fasts is encouraged (i've seen small children having no food for 8 days or more very commonly).
jains run shelters/hospitals for animals (e.g. cattle without owner, cows that no longer give milk, animals saved froum butcher, etc.)
they are not supposed to kill even a mosquito, ant, snake or a honey bee biting them.
and above all a large-Jain population can be seen following non-violence strictly even today and very commonly.
gujarat in india has the highest population of jains.
I come from Gujarat and untill I was about 22, I had never seen people having meat and drinking liquor (liquor is illegal there).  When I came to Mumbai (Bombay) to start my career in Communication Software, I was shocked to see meat being sold by the side of roads and liquor being openly sold and commonly consumed.  Now I know that its reality everwhere.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2008, 06:25:58 AM by hardik »

xRyokenx

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Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2008, 10:43:59 PM »
One of my uncle's only eats organic food because he refuses to support the way they raise chickens and all any other way.  People do some atrocious things to farm raised animals.

Another of my uncles is purely vegetarian and he set up a greenhouse this year and got a few chickens for their eggs.  Lemme tell ya, those chickens are very happy with the nice coop he made them and how well they are treated.

I've thought about giving up eating meat but I can't due to medical and personal reasons.  I don't like any form of suffering so I think I may start eating only organic food too.  Time to do some research.

hardik_bavishi_79

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Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2008, 07:05:20 AM »
Dear Ryoken and others,

Thats so nice that ur uncle (and now u) have turned to a way of imparting less pain to the birds.  I would like to share an opinion of mine about 'Shila' or the right conduct.  For a lay person, Shila is a list of do's and dont's, rules of moral conduct.  But for a sadhaka, slowly and steadily Shila becomes result of panna (the wisdom) that he is developing during meditation.  When awareness is established, wisdom is established, shila comes from within and not from the memory of what we have heard/read/believed.  Sadhakas who are not vegetarian can experiment this thing:  Forget all about Shila.  Have no guilt about being a non-vegetarian.  Keep a pet chicken at ur home.  Spend some time with it daily consciously, feed it consciously, touch it consciously etc especially after you have meditated.  Do not try to develop any feelings for it effortfully "Its my pet, Its so cute, etc.".  Nothing.  Just be conscious of its life, its aliveness.  One day when you are feeling very peaceful and blissful after meditation, try to kill it for your food by your own hands.  But while killing be aware of your breathe, your sensations, your thoughts and emotions.  Also be aware of the touch, the sound, the movement, the breathe of the little life you are about to kill.

I believe, Shila shall emerge from your wisdom.  And the shila emerged from that depth shall have great power to show you the right path.  Now the Shila, the right conduct, is what your inner-wisdom allows.

Most of you need not experiment even, because after reading itself they are convinced that they wont be able to do so.  Many of the people (even non-meditators) are non-vegetarian because the process of killing is in abstraction for them.  Neither have they killed it themselves nor have they seen it getting killed for them.  Moreover, that which was killed for them, they had never felt its life when it was alive.  It was just a thing for them.  Many of us naturally possess a heart, kind-enough, not capable of killing.  If these people, the owners of such a soft heart, add a little thought that "If I dont want to kill it how can I allow somebody to kill it for me and pay for it?" they would quit eating meat.  And the other factor that they cant quit is conditioning....they have seen their parents, grand-parents, friends, relatives, everybody eating meat.  And that makes them think, "If everybody is doing that, why not me? Why should I think differently.".

I am extremely sorry if I have hurt any non-vegetarian friend.  Other sadhakas, please share ur understanding about the Shila - the one followed with faith and the one resulting from panna(wisdom).

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
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  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2008, 08:33:22 AM »
When I was at the Buddhist centre I lived at in France they ate meat. I heard a farmer was killing an organic pig that had a happy life. I said we should buy half and have it butchered because it was better than the supermarket meat they ate where you did not know the animal. They eventually agreed but were horrified by the blood and butchering which we did in the Buddhist centre kitchen, even though they cooked meat there every day. I said it was better they were aware of what was involved in eating meat than unaware. Some said they wanted to stay unaware.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Jack

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Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2008, 09:55:12 AM »
Good discussion.  One may ask how much different (or similar) we are from the artistic elephant.  I do think that the use of terms like murder brings unnecessary emotion into the discussion, though. Having said that, it is helpful to remember that non-killing of animals is one aspect of practicing right actions. 

Another part of right actions is non-harming of our earth.  Our passion for eating meat has an environmental impact.  The livestock sector has major impacts on the atmosphere and climate.  It is responsible for a significant portion of the production of such greenhouse gases as carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide and ammonia. 

The production of meat requires 2,500 gallons of water, and yet only 25 gallons for a pound of grain.  Half of the water consumed in the US is used for raising animals for food.  Yet, global water shortages are causing drought and famine, which is dramatically increasing.  Thich Nhat Hanh has written a compelling letting about this and can be found at:  http://www.plumvillage.org/HTML/news/letterfromThay.html

A year ago, I decided to dramatically cut back on my consumption of meat.  Admittedly, I've fallen off the veggie wagon a few times, but overall have found it not difficult nor harmful to my health.  While not having surveyed my friends, I suspect that about half of my Sangha friends are vegetarian.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion.

Metta - J

Flipasso

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Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2008, 06:45:33 PM »
I enjoy the discussion aswell.
And although not (currently) a vegetarian this is a hot topic for me.
I think there is no justifiable reason one should eat meat. (except of course for health reasons)
There are the environmental, economical and ethical arguments(spl?) that cancel any other argument(spl?) one might have.

Although, nowadays I eat meat on a daily basis.... I'm a siner....
I tried a few vegetarian diets, but when I eat meat.... I go nuts!!!!
I can follow a vegetarian diet for a year or so, but If I once eat meat the next few months I will be wanting to eat nothing but meat....
I currently hoping(perhaps that's the wrong attitude) that my meditation practice, will develop that inner-wisdom that automatically compels(spl?) me to have shila....

Do you think that is possible?

PS - I don't think eating biologically produced milk and eggs to be of any harm. What do you think?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 06:46:46 PM by Flipasso »

Jack

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Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2008, 07:06:55 PM »
I currently hoping(perhaps that's the wrong attitude) that my meditation practice, will develop that inner-wisdom that automatically compels(spl?) me to have shila.... Do you think that is possible?

PS - I don't think eating biologically produced milk and eggs to be of any harm. What do you think?

Plipasso, perhaps this is a bit like being on the cushion.  Thoughts come, are acknowledged, and we move on.  Maybe, we can forgive our occasional sins?  Eating less meat is certainly a good environmental step, which was my original motivation.  It may take a while to remove most or all meat from your diet.  I think that it is ok, as long as you are progressing in the right direction.

I understand that Vegans don't eat any products from animals; eggs, milk, honey, fish and others.  While I know several healthy Vegans, the lifestyle is not for me, and like you, i do eat eggs and milk.  I also eat fish.  All of those are good sources of protein.

As someone new to vegetarianism, I found that there are many good cookbooks that can help.  If you have a craving for meat, maybe you need more protein, which can be found in soy, beans, nuts and other non meat sources.  A good cookbook should tell you the makeup for each recipe. 

Metta - J

Matthew

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Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2008, 07:51:16 AM »
I think I first became vegetarian when I realised that if there were bigger stronger more "intelligent" beings than us on this earth we'd be food. Only took it up again on health grounds but never liked eating that meat.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

hardik_bavishi_79

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Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2008, 12:06:32 PM »
Dear Flippasso,

I should appreciate that inspite of having such an appetite for meat you have started realizing and accepting vegetarianism.  U have put an interesting question......should i wait for shila to emerge from my meditation practice?  if i were to answer it in an ideal way i should say yes...if ur meditation were very powerful, soon u'll leave eating meat intuitively.  but what if its not very powerful?  shila, samadhi and pragya (panna), all of these 3 help each other....if one becomes stronger other 2 get stronger.  the only word of caution about shila is that it should come from ur heart, it shouldnt be very forceful, it should come from or result into ego or hypocrisy.  keeping all this in mind one has to decide his do's and dont's for shila.  upto certain extent good shila is supposed to help u in meditation by creating situations more friendly for meditation inside and outside.  if u leave meat realizing that i dont want to harm other animals and that their life is also valuable....inshort developing love and respect for all life forms...this will certainly help.  it might happen that this compassion of urs does not come from very deep but whatever depth it is coming from (even if from shallow thoughts) u have achieved that small proportion of purity.  this small proportion of purity will be helpful in samadhi and panna.  as panna gets stronger, the depth of ur compassion will still increase and so on.  thus it could be a very small starting point to reduce or stop eating meat but can reap huge results by invoking a positive cycle.  one more thing: for vipassana its helpful to have a subtle and still mind, less mechanical, less gross.  now its believed that non-veg food will help u bring that awareness and stillness that u'll need for ur meditation.  let me explain u through some another example.  suppose u had a fight with somebody in evening and than had a very very heavy dinner with lot of liquor and then u want to meditate in night.  dont u think it will be difficult to meditate?  now u can think that inspite of all this i can still keep on meditating and one day due to growth of my wisdom i'll stop over-eating and liquor-consumption.....and thats not impossible.  but more practical and faster way is to stop over-eating and liquor right now, get a better quality meditation opportunity so that ur wisdom develops faster and due to which very soon u dont want to over-eat and have liquor, automatically, intuitively and effortlessly.  the begining was effortfull but end is not.  infact i find that nature of whole journey of vipassana is such: from effortfullness to effortlessness.  it starts with hardwork but slowly it brings peace, effortlessness.  having a light veg food will aid in wakefulness and speed up ur journey.  now the whole choice is whether u want to speed up ur journey or delay it.

take care,
hardik.

spiceant

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Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2008, 10:08:18 PM »
It is my understanding that conventional / biologic food is barely different. To all i recommend that you taste your food apart from eachother and that you taste your food thoroughly and through trial and error of yourself and your beloved friends and family pick out the foods that taste the best (without added flavors or being mixed with any thing). Figure out where you can get affordable food stuffs and figure out which taste the best. Your taste buds have been developed to distinquish good food from bad food, you dont need any books to teach you which food has nutrients.
Most often people eat their food mindlessly, quite literally. Some foods we do not at all eat because they taste good, but because it is a mindless habit. Taste your food thoroughly. A tasteless food is a nutrtitionally empty food, adding salt sauce or chemicals to it does not add any nutrition. Yet many do this today, adding nutrtionally empty flavors to tasteless food. This is a recipe for disaster quite evident by growing disease rates. Even hospital food is often tasteless (if you ignore the added flavors) which makes the hospital a place to die, because sick people are malnutritioned.
Fruits that are in season are often the most tasty and they are the most nutritious. That vegetable may have more iron, but you will have no little means to absorb it and your taste buds know it. Pulling the iron out with cooking makes it more like a rock, and we cannot digest rock.

Most people eat a very substandard diet which is in part to feed their mindless addictions, but not it is not a productive pursuit for everyone to abandon all of their addictions instantly. If you expand too fast you are bound to implode. Balance is paramount.
Some people need meat to maintain a sense of balance and identity, which is almost an absolute requirement for growth. (Though most people can easily go without meat without troubles, besides withdrawal.)
An important part of your diet is sunshine but the most important is proper breathing and fresh air. Do a little investigation into breathing techniques, if you never have.

Crystal salt is a poison, it dehydrates everything it touches. Chemical fertilizers are salts. They force plants to absorb a lot of water and it strongly disturbs the vitality of the soil, which makes the plant in turn bigger (more water to dilute the salt) but also more tasteless and prone to disease. The grocery stores however want big plants because they sell for more (can i say $_$?) and we fix the tasteless problem with added (but empty) flavors. You see what salt does to people today. Salt is what makes animals heavy (fat). If you want to lose excess weight, use no added flavors and substitute tasteless merchandise for tastefull food.
Food and fruit in particular used to be very tasty by itself 200 years ago and beyond, i suggest you wonder a little bit about that idea if you never have.

There is a whole maze of things you can do for body health. But that like any topic that can also be a trap that halts your growth. Some people are strongly connected to their intuition, higher-self, holy spirit or whatever you want to call it and that is where you will figure out what is best for you and your body.

Be happy and keep happy  :)

kseistrup

  • Guest
Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2008, 06:34:39 AM »

I think there is no justifiable reason one should eat meat. (except of course for health reasons)


I just finished reading the Campbells' The China Study last night.  Its authors raise serious questions about the long held dogma that one needs animal protein in order to survive.  In fact, the authors' research shows that human consumption of animal protein (milk, egg, meats) is probably the root cause of the surge in most "western" diseases like cancer, diabetes etc.

While a bit heavy because of all the scientific terms, the book is definitely worth a read.

Cheers,
Klaus.

spiceant

  • Guest
Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2008, 10:00:04 PM »
meat is unpalatable to just about everyone in its natural (raw & fresh) form. Even in its cooked form many meats are still unpalatable. Cooked meats are an acquired taste that they acquire even before they start storing permanent memories (early childhood). like most toxins it becomes an addiction or habit. Once the body recognizes that it will have to cope with meat or any toxin, something very strange happens and an addiction is formed. Why addictions can be formed i have no clue, but nature allows us to become addicted after the body recognizes it will have to deal with the poisons its owner decides to put in it despite the warning signs.

Your civilization has many books saying this herb has these nutrients and this herb has this many nutrients and this meat type has this many minerals and this fruit has this many of such and such. Why do they not mention how many minerals are in a rock? Why does civilization not recognize differences between how digestable certain foodstuffs are? Certainly that vegetable has more nutrients but your civilization makes no difference between how well we can digest and utilize what is in our foodstuffs. Milk has a lot of calcium, but despite that it still drains your body of nutrients and if you have "osteoporosis" it makes the condition worse. Your civilization does not seem to care that seeds (read: grains) hold toxins that poison its consumers, yet the staple of our your civilized diet is grain. Even the staple of the domesticated american cow has become grain & soy, even though it is a grass eater. It is an irritant to the cow which makes it weak and to nature makes it seem like that cow is a dead animal, which you can quite clearly see because nature sends out herds of microscopic undertakers to bury these cows. It may seem cruel, but survival of the weak leads to extinction.

frepi

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Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2008, 10:12:12 PM »
I am sorry but inuits ate until only recently almost only meat. Raw meat was the only source of vitamins. Some of our ancestors (neanderthal I think) were as carnivorous as wolves (80% of their diet was meat).

spiceant

  • Guest
Re: Meat or murder?
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2008, 11:08:53 AM »
I didn't say it is impossible to live on meat but i am saying that it reduces lifespan and health compared to a diet consisting mainly of tasty in season fruits, nuts, berries, sprouted seeds,

 

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