Author Topic: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods  (Read 15424 times)

Andrew

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Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2011, 05:00:00 AM »



To give it a try,

open an account and do battle!

I think the guy is mostly full of shit like alot of his top liberators, I find his blog long winded and it reminds me of church, but that is also what i like about the site; passionate evangelistic fervour!

The world is full of loud voices calling people to all sort of wacked out stuff. Within a dozen clicks of the mouse, if I was so inclined, I could be viewing scenes that would make satan say 'oh that is going tooo far'

The world of humans is indeed absurd. I don't find RT anymore absurd than the billions of dollars pumped into buddhist organisations every year and the seeming complete lack of any results in society, the inaction is really astounding. I find it a whole lot more comforting to see someone dusting off the truth of 'no self' and just getting it out there. Sure, it's not the whole box and dice, but he is right, it is the Gateway. Without it, we just return to our vomit and keep wondering why "I" am not free.

I'm actually enjoying the sharpness in my experience after seeing that, without any special state, 'no self 'can be seen right now to be true.

It is a gateway we have all passed through here, why do we go back and invent new 'selves' when we have done away with the idea of their existence in the first place? We are never feeling the effect of an 'ego', such a thing is an imaginary, non existent turn of phrase.

We talk about ego all the time, look and see if infact such a thing exists! Or perhaps we are sinking back into 'I need to have some massive experience' before I will live this stuff? No big experience required, but is actually quite likely in someone who has never looked at all.

I have used this simple thought to diffuse the bullshit trip I am usuallly on, the 'i need to meditate, i need to change' cycle, there is no 'I'! The thoughts keep referring to one, especially the language thinking, but the understanding kicks in and bang, "only this moment is here, experience it well" and the rest of the story is make believe!

Indeed, let's go beyond this illusion shall we?




« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 05:30:43 AM by Andrew »
getting it done

Matthew

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Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2011, 08:22:21 AM »
Much of the sense of "I" is embodied in linguistic habits and the thinking we habitually employ grabs this "I" and makes it real.

The duelling there is not more than showing people this truth. By examining immediate experience intimately one sees this, however no duel is needed. It is simply a question of understanding the Dhamma, realising this false sense of "I" has a life-force of it's own - through linguistic and cultural habit and clinging in your own mind - and then dropping the clinging, recognising it in action every moment.

Thus have "I" always said it is not practice that matters so much as how it manifests as change off the cushion. Everyday, every-moment mindfulness of body-mind quickly is of the greatest importance, which I believe Andrew has now stumbled upon, reveals this without the need to resort to a battle of the ego's, which is what they are doing over there.

The problem is that much deeper realisation/seeing/insight/Vipassana is needed to truly kill this clinging dead, to extinguish it (Nirbana/Nirvana), to "do what has to be done". It is clear from many of their dialogues that they have got a certain way down the path and stopped at that point, they have not "done what has to be done".
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 08:32:31 AM by Matthew »
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Andrew

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Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2011, 09:09:22 AM »
No duel is needed at all. Unless it is!

That's where yourself and others have come into the mix of 'my' path, pointing out blazingly obvious things that I just wasn't paying attention too. That is the other trap as well; 'familiarity breeds contempt'. The more we think we 'know' each other, the less inclined we are to truly listen. Complete strangers hammering away seems to be a part of the mix for me at least.

1) My mate Rob, i knew him since I was 12, but hadn't seen him until 24 when we  started working together. basically a stranger. 'Duelled' with me for days. Snapped me right our of my ineffective christian whatever. Also I experienced, though did not understand, a 'no self , primordial awareness' moment.

2) Matthew, who I didn't know very well and had judged poorly, point by point in a  PM 'duelled' with my thinking and i ended up about seeing the same but more emotional version of the same moment.

3) Nomad (?) , complete stranger and still is, posed the simple challenge of "Do you exist?" plus a few more questions and I get 4 days of a lightness and clarity about the 'no self' experience. Not what I would have expected, I thought a 'momen't would be good, but got a fire in my belly and an understanding to cut 'I' thoughts in the bud. They are not referring to anything and should be see through.

Maybe others indeed aren't as slow as me, that has been an ongoing concern in my life  :P, but 'duelling' does seem to be a factor in me letting go of the bullshit 'I know' and actually seeing past my nose!

I feel that doing what needs to be done is indeed where I am, if others on RT aren't at that point I cannot say, the culture is combative, so a certain language of 'focus' exists that certainly clouds getting to know anyone. I don't  think that is the point of the site anyway. they communicated what the set out to do,  which is OK with me if that's all they got.

On the subject of duelling, I sent a PM to the admin letting them know that new laws in Oz actually make any form of online bullying or slander illegal. The 'rules' of duelling do not make it clear that people are still criminally responsible for what they say and should duel with that in mind.

getting it done

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
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  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
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Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2011, 09:19:12 AM »
:) There is a sense of happiness that this worked deeply under your skin .. at all the stages you describe.
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
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  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2011, 09:22:48 AM »
...
The world of humans is indeed absurd. I don't find RT anymore absurd than the billions of dollars pumped into buddhist organisations every year and the seeming complete lack of any results in society, the inaction is really astounding.....

This is why the Dhamma name life gave me is "The Irreverent Buddhist". What you write is very true.
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Andrew

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Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2011, 09:35:18 AM »
Much of the sense of "I" is embodied in linguistic habits and the thinking we habitually employ grabs this "I" and makes it real.


That actually is the central realisation for me.

That last bit is not quite right though, it doesn't make it real and that is the problem. (I know you know this and that sentence is a just a turn of phrase)

'I' remains imaginary and the thoughts start to 'hang' like a computer program that is trying to multiply something by Zero. It just spins and hangs, and in humans, we suffer. In some people it crashes the system. Most of world is 'self centred' at the moment which will cause it to crash as well. As long as the basic understanding of humans remains that "I exist" in a separate, discrete 'self' they have absolutely no chance of 'doing what needs to be done', as they will continue to search for a way to free something which does not exist.

Indeed I have stumbled upon the fire that is needed to set my world ablaze.


The Irreverant Buddhist was right all along.

"Tat Tvam Asi;  fabricate nothing"  indeed.


getting it done

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
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  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2011, 10:07:08 AM »
Much of the sense of "I" is embodied in linguistic habits and the thinking we habitually employ grabs this "I" and makes it real.


That actually is the central realisation for me.

That last bit is not quite right though, it doesn't make it real and that is the problem. (I know you know this and that sentence is a just a turn of phrase)

Apologies .. correction .. it makes it real for the imaginary non-existent "I".

....
Indeed I have stumbled upon the fire that is needed to set my world ablaze.


The Irreverant Buddhist was right all along.

"Tat Tvam Asi;  fabricate nothing"  indeed.


If "i" had a penny for every time someone said that ... "i"d be a rich man.

:D
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Andrew

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Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2011, 12:10:59 PM »
I'll send you a penny to start your collection then!  ;)
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Masauwu

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Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2011, 01:38:39 PM »
He`s not here to post but we have youtube:
Alan Watts - Man is a Hoax (PHILOSOPHICAL DISCOURSE series)
The summer river:
although there is a bridge, my horse
goes through the water.

Andrew

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    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2011, 07:11:08 AM »
I sent a PM to Ciaran from the RuthlessTruth forum about the possibility of bullying resulting from the way the rules where laid down on Duelling, more related to australian laws that have been changed which are cracking down on internet slander/bullying.

After a few days, he removed the 'humiliated or destroyed ' comment  from the rules. Got to say that it impressed me that he saw the point being made in the PM.

He replaced it with;

Quote
1: Post a topic in which you issue a challenge. If it's accepted, you have a one on one with someone. It is a point of honour that you stay in the duel until you see the truth your opponent is pointing to, or you show them the falsehood of it.


A

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Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
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  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2011, 11:42:00 PM »
He`s not here to post but we have youtube:

We have an extensive Alan Watts section in the library as you know .. don't think this one is there. One of the most highly realised people of the 20th century.
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Andrew

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    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2011, 06:58:49 AM »
Have a look at how this dude ended up stabilising his attainment of 4th path (what ever that is)

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1915497

Intellectual understanding is not enough, you must be sure at each stage by investigation whether 'you' are the centre of what is going on or there is no 'you'!

getting it done

Masauwu

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Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2011, 01:40:48 PM »
Harilal Poonja (Papaji) - Call Off The Search (Remastered 2007) (bulgarian subtitles)

38:13 - 41:00 before there were RT threads (minus the ruthless part); just one of the scenes, the whole movie is about that.
The summer river:
although there is a bridge, my horse
goes through the water.

Andrew

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    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2011, 04:12:34 AM »
there is no spoon original english

this whole movie is about that to.. :D
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Masauwu

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Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2011, 12:04:32 AM »
Andy, would you say that a (successful) RT thread dialogue results in a clear and sudden shift, a realization of the no-self beyond the mere understanding and accepting of the concept? Because if that`s the case then everyone should do it, i will even digest the confrontational tone that i hate so much (another self attribute perhaps, but who`s counting). I still have my doubts about achieving such a great victory with just a few words, but the video i linked earlier made me reconsider, specifically the times he said - "go beyond"; which i tried and failed - one could say that those students had the benefit of shaktipat, but the possibility of missing something right in front of me that could make a huge difference at the snap of a finger keeps bugging me.

Anyone else who had direct experience with RT or similar methods please feel free to share your experience.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 12:14:55 AM by Masauwu »
The summer river:
although there is a bridge, my horse
goes through the water.

Andrew

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    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2011, 01:02:24 AM »
For me there was no sudden shift or a any pop. It was like looking for keys that you never owned!
Just look honestly for the 'self'. It is very everyday and plain really..or not! Some people really do pop and spend days walkin around completely spinning out at the fact their hand is attached to their body! Yesterday was more pop like, once I let go of the whole Andrew story in relation to a 'spiritual' journey.

If you go in genuinely looking it really doesn't matter, infact if you are more comfortable doing it via pm's I'll be the mirror for you. Or, start an account on RT and I'll 'call you out' , the seriousness of the site certainly helped me see.

go in there expecting whatever you want it really makes no difference, perhaps a stranger would be good, it has always worked that way for me.
getting it done

Morning Dew

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Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2011, 06:12:07 AM »
Quote
(another self attribute perhaps, but who`s counting).

Maybe not counting but the Mindfulness is Noting :)

Go for it and if you feel it being too much you can always back away as I did. Andrew was not in Dark Night when he entered the duel and clarity prevailed. "I" was in a very bad Disolution stage as you all know from this forum and without clarity one gets nowhere. Arm "yourself" with a clear positive mind before entering the duel or not. In any way the only one hurt will be the Self which does not exist anyway.

Realising the Self or Non-Self can not replace the actual sitting practice though and contemplating nonself without it will lead to "story telling", just another mind game.

Go for it

niza

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Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2011, 09:47:39 AM »
This is such a useful thread.... Realised that there is so much identificaiton with the stormy sensations... "Oh i must not react...i must try anapana...let me relax... and so on"

There is no I...just experience it however possible however it manifests...wow!

Morning Dew

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Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2011, 10:50:36 AM »
Yes Niza :) stormy sensations are stormy only because there is the "I" identifying with the storm :)

Look at the sense of "I" all the time.

Be well


Andrew

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Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2011, 12:24:41 PM »
Sense of 'I' is a red herring, how can you sense what doesn't exist?  identification process is closer.
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Morning Dew

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Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2011, 12:46:27 PM »
Quote
Sense of 'I' is a red herring

According to Slartibartfast its blue  :P

Stefan

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Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2011, 03:17:04 PM »

 ;) yeah but ol' Slarti intended to build Africa with fjords
anicca

Masauwu

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Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2011, 06:23:49 PM »
Liberation Unleashed new direct pointing board, this place doesn`t seem to have the confrontational tone and language seen on RT. I`m giving it a try to see what happens. Speaking from my own one on one interaction, it feels like an online satsang with the self enquiry from advaita vedanta as main method; which sounds good.
The summer river:
although there is a bridge, my horse
goes through the water.

Andrew

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    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2011, 02:09:23 AM »
Sweet.  :)
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Andrew

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    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
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Re: Actualism / actual freedom, direct pointing and other new methods
« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2011, 02:52:31 AM »
relevant link for this thread.

The description of perception before the mind clamps down, is exactly how I remember sitting in the car and seeing a moped in the most vivid way for a split second.

Definately a cool mode of being, though I think the Actual Freedom Trust should, in light of the plagiarism, be take with a liberal helping of your favourite condiment. (now they got me speaking in long words; or should I say; communicating my esoteric cogitations and ruminations in bombastic nomenclature.  ::))

http://nickdowntherabbithole.blogspot.com/2011/08/treasure-chest-apperceptive-awareness.html

http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/4034050/%22Actual+Freedom%22+within+a+larger+context

Edit; mispelt bombastic as rhombastic, (mathematicians on mushrooms would have still understood what I meant.)
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 04:43:07 AM by Andrew »
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