Author Topic: Ways of thinking  (Read 12764 times)

thomas

  • Member
Ways of thinking
« on: August 15, 2011, 10:31:07 AM »
Maybe this post isn't to be answered, although thoughts always welcome.



Why think like this?

Why do some people need meditation and others seem fine without it?

Why does it always seem to be people who have had some sort of psychological difficulties (minor and major) that begin to look for answers.. and eventually meditation?

2 of my best friends, intelligent guys, have no need for meditation at all. They live within the framework that they were brought up in. Their conditioned way of seeing the world. They are both happy with it. They accept the ups and downs but on mass are very balanced, happy people. Much happier than most of the poeple I know who meditate.

It actually seems like a fundamental difference in mind operation. They are satisfied with what they have got  and the world around them. They accept it for what it is.. in the conventional way. 
I am not satisfied with the accepted conditioned way of thinking and acting towards people and myself. I question, they don't question. Science answers everything for them. Both are athiests.

Who is better off? Not that it matters. I would have thought that not realising that you're whole perception of reality is distorted (ignorance of it) would be bliss. But once you realise it, you cannot return to that accepting ignorance... the only routes appear to be self delusional pretense, depression and isolation or... the path to enlightenment.

One of my firends believes outside scientific knowledge there is probably virtually nothing worth knowing.
He is sure we have reached a peak in scientific knowledge (I tell him that that is a trap every scientific age falls for)..

He seems to have no wonder or openness to the unknown. In fact he seems to almost think that there is no unknown. He is happy to consider the world only as it appears to him totally within the framework of science and observation.

So... why is it that a very intelligent guy can live a totally happy life within this framework... No need for calming the mind. He is totally content with the ups and downs of being human. He has his problems, but just sees it as a part of life. It doesn't appear to worry him at all. This life gives him all the comfort he requires.. he has simple pleasures and a settled life. Although he is irritable, sometimes lazy and can be very cynical.

We talk about religious beliefs and I try to explain how I see most texts as full of symbolism.. which shouldn't be taken too literrally or mystically. I have tried to explain in a scientific way how I see the teachings of buddha. But I can see from his reaction that I dont do it very well... or that he is just very closed to anything related to religious  teachings. He doesn't need it. I even find him quite closed to pshychological or philosophical ideas.. he has a very straight conventional way of thinking.

hmmmm..


back to the breath... and back to the breath....  and back to the breath.... and back to the breath..... and back to the breath

Quardamon

  • Member
    • Teachers were: P.K.K. Mettavihari, Frits Koster, Nel Kliphuis. (In the line of Mahasi Sayadaw)
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2011, 11:55:20 AM »
I like this post of yours, Thomas.

Now, there is several approaches we can choose from - if we wont to approach this.

Shall we see it as a problem?

We could see it as a problem of his. He does not know what he is missing. :angel: He is probably very neurotic. 8) Needs this world with nice and neat fences around it, because if he would open up he would go mad. ???
You see, it would give us a feeling of superiority to see your friend like that. And probably it would cost you the friendship with him   . . .   

We could see it as a problem of ourselves. If only we could be simple and contented  :'(  . . .    Ahhh. Yearning for a life that we, deep in our hearts, see not as real for ourselves.

Shall we see it as a richness?

He lives from a different heart than you or I do. He is content and safe. That is beautiful. God bless him.
We do not know why we have this need to look further. I for myself, I know I must honour this need to look beyond things. If I do not meditate, I literally cannot sleep. If I do not read about psychology, if I loose contact with friends from other cultures or that are clairvoyant or into shamanism or meditation, I get grumpy. I would feel so locked up and worthless. I need to meditate in order to make friends with the despair I can feel, lest it hollow me out.

Maybe, after all the visions, after all going beyond the beyond, you and I will end up simply being, content with what is.    . . .    Like your friends were in the first place.

We could be chauvinistic about meditation.
I do not know for you, but I am proud that I can sit for an hour, and proud that I have a stronger intuition than most. Does it help anyone or anything ???  I doubt it. Yes it does, but literally taking out the trash for the neighbour who is too weak to do so helps just as much. At any rate in my view. The pride I feel in being an accomplished meditator is very much like the pride my fellow-rowers feel in being good rowers - inclusive of the playing-it down, the humour, the camaraderie.

Well   . . .    hmmm   . . .     hm.

Till an other time.

Jeeprs

  • Guest
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2011, 12:33:59 PM »
I read a quote on the other forum I post to:

Quote
"As long as the dark foundation of our nature, grim in its all-encompassing egoism, mad in its drive to make that egoism into reality, to devour everything and to define everything by itself, as long as that foundation is visible, as long as this truly original sin exists within us, we have no business here and there is no logical answer to our existence. Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?" The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do. And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure."

Vladimir Solovyov

I have many friends who are similar to that, I can relate to them about current affairs and technology and the like. We never discuss anything spiritual. Some people - maybe most people - are not spiritually inclined. But that said, it is a mistake to be attached to the idea that one is special because one has these interests. Just accept the fact that others may not.

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2011, 01:12:46 PM »
I whish your friends all the best Thomas :) but wait and see how they will react once the Beast of Impermanence starts taking away those things they love, like, desire, cling to, ...
I too was once very content with the life, i had a job, friends, party, girlfriend, an image. And then i lost a very dear friend due death and that content life fell apart. I lost myself in anger and sorrow.
Thanks to The Buddha and those keeping his Dhamma alive to this day i came to see the things as they are, or better am on the Path of realising them, realising the self.

Strive diligently for your own salvation. This Path requiers one to be a Seeker. Push no one into it.

It is you in this case who maybe desire to have friends with same interest. Find a local Sangha instead :)
I as a matter of fact am goinc to join tonight a Zen Center which is in a near by city :)

Be well

Vivek

  • Moderator
  • Staff
    • Advaita & U Ba Khin's tradition
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2011, 01:44:19 PM »
Good question, Thomas, and your observant and inquisitive nature will surely serve you well in the path. Your observations about your friends, both their external circumstances (which appear all congenial and serve them excellently) as well as their subjective nature (their beliefs, attitudes, ideologies etc) pertain to a particular period of time in their lives. However, as the law of impermanence goes, both the external conditions as well as their inner nature, are bound to change sooner or later. I am not saying that it will change for the worse, but, in order for us to come face-to-face with Dukkha, the inherent unsatisfactoriness of all things worldly, things do not necessarily have to turn so bad. Take the instance of Buddha himself. External conditions were all wonderful as far as Prince Gautama was concerned. But still, look what Gautama eventually became. I believe that it has a lot to do with paramis (qualities) also. If the seed is there, it will sprout sooner or later.

 I wouldn't be as forthright as Dusko (in his post above), but, he does make the point. As Tolle says, everybody fails sooner or later. And when that happens, perhaps, your friends will start asking the questions, which they should be asking.
Let's go beyond this illusion, shall we?

Masauwu

  • Member
    • chipping away
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2011, 02:48:04 PM »
One of my firends believes outside scientific knowledge there is probably virtually nothing worth knowing.
He is sure we have reached a peak in scientific knowledge (I tell him that that is a trap every scientific age falls for)..
The underlined part is very important, surely conventional science must cover this. They discovered analogies in space (atom structure vs star system), the ones in time should be easier.

I don`t consider meditation to be non-scientific, they probably only dismiss things they have not explored in detail; discarding them as religion instead of trying to understand what they are really about. For ages people have only taken care of the education and training of their bodies, it`s about time they start to educate and train their mind. And that is not done by just adding lists of things in memory.
The summer river:
although there is a bridge, my horse
goes through the water.

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2011, 11:16:40 PM »
I had a conversation with my nephew and his father two years ago - my nephew and I were discussing corruption and in particular the constructive and deliberate denial of appropriate medical attention I have suffered for years - which has lead to severe disability.

At some point my former brother in law stopped the conversation and said, "I can't hear any more of this - I was brought up to believe that doctors, the police and politicians are doing their best and are honourable people - I can't live in a world where that isn't true".

Unfortunately he does live in a world where that isn't true. He just chose to take the blue pill. So do your friends Thomas:

The Matrix - Tumbling down the rabbit hole. . .


The Matrix
written by Andy Wachowski & Larry Wachowski


    Morpheus: I imagine that right now you're feeling a bit like Alice. Tumbling down the rabbit hole?
    Neo: You could say that.
    Morpheus: I can see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he's expecting to wake up. Ironically, this is not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?
    Neo: No.
    Morpheus: Why not?
    Neo: 'Cause I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.
    Morpheus: I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know, you can't explain. But you feel it. You felt it your entire life. That there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there. Like a splinter in your mind -- driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?
    Neo: The Matrix?
    Morpheus: Do you want to know what it is?
    (Neo nods his head.)
    Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere, it is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window, or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work, or when go to church or when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
    Neo: What truth?
    Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else, you were born into bondage, born inside a prison that you cannot smell, taste, or touch. A prison for your mind. (long pause, sighs) Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself. This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back.
    (In his left hand, Morpheus shows a blue pill.)
    Morpheus: You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. (a red pill is shown in his other hand) You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. (Long pause; Neo begins to reach for the red pill) Remember -- all I am offering is the truth, nothing more.
    (Neo takes the red pill and swallows it with a glass of water)



The "problem" for meditators is that once you have taken the red pill there is no going back. Taste the prison bars of the mind that stop us being free and you have also tasted freedom itself. It never goes away, and if you choose to take the blue pill it no longer works.

"The Matrix is everywhere, it is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window, or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work, or when go to church or when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth."

Mindfulness brings this prison of bondage into awareness.

Much love,

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Andrew

  • Member
    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2011, 02:56:34 AM »
Awesome thread Thomas. I have wondered the same thing myself.

One thing my mere 35 years has taught me is people are awesome bullshit artists; your friends are actors who know their lines well, but take away the stage and props like Che said, they will stumble like anyone else. The difference with us is we know we are falling and choose to have a grin on our face and say "not me, not mine, not I"!! We let it go as best we can, though perhaps we still think like your friends; that we had a grip of reality.
getting it done

Masauwu

  • Member
    • chipping away
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2011, 03:59:21 AM »
The "problem" for meditators is that once you have taken the red pill there is no going back. Taste the prison bars of the mind that stop us being free and you have also tasted freedom itself. It never goes away, and if you choose to take the blue pill it no longer works.
I can relate to this example, i watched the Matrix series again recently just to remind myself of certain dialogues. Replying because i feel like someone after taking a red pill, but with a warning - taking the red pill is far from enough. It`s like someone who is drowning in the ocean and while struggling under the surface he managed to take a brief breath of air. You have to learn how to swim or you WILL sink back. Or at least that is my perception while sinking back, nobody can do anything for me, i have to learn how to swim and not give up.

This thread approaches a really sensitive subject for our times. Bring these questions in a public debate with humanity`s brightest scientific minds and we will see all kinds of forcefields of mind brought up to block what is uncomfortable for it. And maybe a few brave explorers among them who just want to discover the things as they really are, regardless of how they make their absolete mind constructs react.
The summer river:
although there is a bridge, my horse
goes through the water.

Andrew

  • Member
    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2011, 05:13:50 AM »
You can't sink back Masauwu, that's where the analogy breaks down. There is no air! There is no gasp of air, just a flash of misguided hope that maybe I can make it out of here when we start sitting. Once we have sat for a while then we see that the situation has no way out. It is at this point we put a smile on our dial and do what we have to do. Accept our karma, observe it, befriend it, do what we have to do.

It's not a bad or evil thing per se, just the way it is. Everything that has a beginning has an end, Neo.
getting it done

Masauwu

  • Member
    • chipping away
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2011, 05:33:30 AM »
All i can say is what is happening ("to me"). That was a nice scene, "do you think that`s air you`re breathing?"... But there is no auto mechanism, no deliverance that takes over once you get a brief glimpse of reality. No guarding angels, no buddhas, no devas, no gurus, no miracles... just sink or swim. You have to dig your way out, even if you feel you have no digging left in you. At least that`s my current experience. And i would love to be wrong.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 05:39:19 AM by Masauwu »
The summer river:
although there is a bridge, my horse
goes through the water.

Andrew

  • Member
    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2011, 06:14:40 AM »
No one has yet proven it isn't all auto pilot. Lest of all me. So we choose to be who we are? Or we are who we are.

I think Thomas has opened up a great can of worms, and for that we should thank him. Broken people tend towards spiritual pursuits. Silver spooners live in blissful ignorance, travelling along as if nothing that has happened will happen again. Then we find out that compared to some we are Silver spooners!

I remember reading years ago about the direct co-relation of sexual abuse and clairvoyance. Does that mean that clairvoyance is a symptom of dysfunction, or does it mean that when the time is right, the conditions for unbinding start to unfold in a karmic path. It is a brutal idea really. Why should this happen to me?

It is a Walt Disney reality to think that there is a way out, that the broken and trembling me can be free. Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and god what is gods. What is left over you can keep! That was the eventual point of the matrix films, both the machines and humans where in the same boat and freedom was doing what need to be done.

Have we got hold of the Truth, or does it take hold of us?

Not arguing by the way, just responding to the 'Ways of thinking' theme!  ;)

Let's see where this goes shall we?

A


getting it done

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2011, 08:01:02 AM »
Quote
You have to learn how to swim or you WILL sink back.

Masauwu :)
A question for you to practice like a Koan :) take one whole sitting session just as an experiment and apply your Whole attention to a question "what will happen if i let go of trying to swim up and just sink back into the abbys".

If you get a wordless answer which is satisfactory move onto a Koan "Who am I?" or if this is too early try "Do I allow my self to let go and sink back into the Abyss". Observe the fear, the sensation taking place, the resistabce to letting go, etc... If you feel this kind of practice is anchoring you more in the present moment. It sure works well in my case :)

Be well mate

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2011, 08:13:52 AM »
You can sink back but you will always know you have. And feel the suffering more acutely for it. There is a phrase the Buddha used, "a leading backslider", for one who dragged others back through not following Dhamma.
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Andrew

  • Member
    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2011, 08:47:59 AM »
I wonder if we sink back or just go around again! I could interpret my current state as 'backslidden' but I can actually see a new paradigm opening up this time around the 'same old, same old' Who is this one desiring, where is the desire seated, what really is each desire leading to, everyday i could say that I am less interested in being free and more interested in letting go of desires. Seeing myself desire, seeing much of it as quite hollow, becoming slowly comfortable with that truth.

If we think we are sinking then we are, but what if we are not? What if we are just going over the same things so we can see them in a new light. If we are still suffering then we obviously missed something the first million times through, and so we get another chance, not to be free, but to be wise, to see the path that leads to freedom*.

Desire to be free doesn't lead to freedom, but more trying to get free. Letting go of desire leads to freedom*. Simple test; if I am Suffering, then I am desiring! the old 1-2.  :D Thomas's friend claims to be truly content?. If that is true, then we are all indeed mistaken an should give this shit up for wine, women and song!.


*Edit: whatever that is!
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 09:07:26 AM by Andrew »
getting it done

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2011, 09:23:31 AM »
Quote
You can sink back but you will always know you have.

Investigating;
Who is this "I" that is sinking? That is afraid of sinking and is trying to swimm up?

There is this being sitting and there is this continuos phenomena of arising and passing. Which is the one in need to swim anywhere? Which one fears the abyss? And if the abyss is not in the now (awareness notes the whole being is sitting on a seiza bench, no abyss to be found here) then where is it? Who is this architect, the creator of the abyss and the swimming up? Of this Up and Down?

Be well

Vivek

  • Moderator
  • Staff
    • Advaita & U Ba Khin's tradition
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2011, 10:21:55 AM »
Quote from: Andy
Desire to be free doesn't lead to freedom, but more trying to get free. Letting go of desire leads to freedom*.
Indeed, Andy. Your words are more in line with the foundations of The Sedona Method. You may find it useful to check it out.
Let's go beyond this illusion, shall we?

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2011, 11:00:45 AM »
Yes we should all screw Buddhas teaching and take up this Sadona Method instead :) ...

WOW so many CDs and Books n movies wow;

Sedona Method Course

BUT wait!!! It is only for those who have the money for all these Dvd and CDs etc... not for poor people, sorry lads. But im happy they take most of the credit cards ;)

Letting Go movie ooops Add to Cart button ;)
EDIT: LINK REMOVED - MALWARE SITE

What does Sedona Method suggest to those who dont have money and no cards ? I know I know :)
They can go to the free of charge Access to Insight and read the words of the Buddha or they can join local meditation centres which are very cheap (Dana) or they can join this free of charge forum community :)

Viva La all the Sedona Methods of this impermanent profit orientated world yeeeee

Be well ya all :)





« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 09:04:11 PM by Matthew »

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2011, 11:11:12 AM »
Oh ah uh :) i almost forgot to ask :)

What do they suggest to the dying children in this world to do? To just let go of the feeling of hunger and ... Like die? Or?

I wonder how much of that money they are making is going into actual charity? Anyone know the answer?

It is NOT about my little self getting the enlightened cake with a cherry on the top but to help all beings get there no matter rich or poor.

Are the Sedona Method creators ready to Let Go of all the money they are storing into their bankaccounts? Giving to those who dont even have food and water?! Without food and water how can there be spiritual growth?

Anyway :) Add to Cart Spirituality gives me goosbumps ;) brrrrrr :)

Be well and thanks for reading :)

Vivek

  • Moderator
  • Staff
    • Advaita & U Ba Khin's tradition
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2011, 11:25:11 AM »
Sedona Method is not entirely a spiritual technique per se. It is more extensivley used in trainings related to self-development, relationships enhancement etc. It is not appropriate to compare it with Buddhist teachings etc. From the beginning, the method was taught on charge and it continues to this day. However, the creator of the Method, Hale Dwoskin claims to have used it to reach enlightenment. I have the found the foundations of the Method to be almost similar to Oriental traditions like Buddhism and Vedanta. I have found it to be helpful as well. Hence, the recommendation. Officially, training in the method is not available free-of-charge.
Let's go beyond this illusion, shall we?

Jeeprs

  • Guest
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2011, 12:35:33 PM »
we ought not to get distracted by the millions of methods, ways, teachers, and so on. There is an advertisement that features here on the TV magazine 'Meditate Deeper than a Zen Monk in 10 Minutes!' Ha! What is 'deeper'?

There are many obstacles on the path. One of them is 'paths'.  :D

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2011, 01:17:35 PM »
Vivek :) i ment nothing personal. Im sure you did it out of good intentions its just this " when you Add to Cart  then get your happiness in just 1 hour and 8 minutes ( as they mentioned on their site)" that gives me heartburn ;)

Nicely put Jeepers :)

Be well

Vivek

  • Moderator
  • Staff
    • Advaita & U Ba Khin's tradition
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2011, 01:36:03 PM »
I agree, Dusko. Aside from all the advertisement gimmicks (which were not there before Lester Levenson passed on) and other hype, the method is a very good aid in the spiritual path. The Sedona Training organization's present head, Hale Dwoskin was a businessman before he turned to the method. So, I believe that a lot of his business tact has come to work in the promotion of the method as well. I do not agree if the SM adverts say happiness in one hour! That is just advertisement crap! Even though the method is pretty simple, it does take work and discipline to get results. Also, I do not recommend spending lots of money and attending all the trainings to learn the method. For one who is really committed, just the Sedona Method book is enough. Add to that, the daily practice described in selfhaven.org, is more than enough.

P.S.: What I wrote in my previous post is wrong, Hale is NOT the creator of the Method, Lester Levenson was. Hale Dwoskin is the current chief trainer and promoter of the method.
Let's go beyond this illusion, shall we?

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2011, 05:35:42 PM »
This is one of the Sedona Method "students"
This method sure doesnt teach that there is no self but rather strenghtens the feeling of the self.
Like many other Add to Cart methods it is bound to lead to suffering because that is the ego's way in the world of impermanence. Its the same as The Secret.
Anyway this Levenson guy stole a part of Buddha's teaching without respecting the Copy Right of the whole 8 Fold Path. I will say no more on this method :)

Enjoy the video ;)
Sedona Method: Allow Your Self To Evolve.

LOL

thomas

  • Member
Re: Ways of thinking
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2011, 07:23:54 PM »
Thanks to you all for taking the time to comment.

I've got so many responses to points made here...  but I am about to go and have a sit, so will respond later

I've been reading them all as they've come through though, and have been digesting


One point. My comments are observations that I am trying to understand. It's not really about who has got it right or wrong. Not sure how to communicate this. Its not necessarily that he is closed to the idea. He just does not see it... or the need for it. He sees the very surface of it and sees no need to look further.

I have not told him I meditate. I don't tell anyone, I don't want to have to justify it or for it to be treated as an image choice.

I have no intention of trying to convince him of anything....

...............


I have just realised I'm using this to delay my sit...

In the wise words of the former Gov - I'll be back
back to the breath... and back to the breath....  and back to the breath.... and back to the breath..... and back to the breath

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
3 Replies
2557 Views
Last post April 16, 2010, 11:46:10 PM
by alexaquatic
3 Replies
1889 Views
Last post October 27, 2010, 08:40:48 PM
by Matthew
20 Replies
6108 Views
Last post January 10, 2011, 06:35:23 PM
by jeepneyko
3 Replies
1430 Views
Last post December 21, 2012, 03:19:06 PM
by phredlee
1 Replies
2542 Views
Last post April 28, 2016, 05:54:20 PM
by Atanavat
1 Replies
1323 Views
Last post October 01, 2013, 08:41:22 PM
by Dharmic Tui
11 Replies
1273 Views
Last post March 25, 2018, 11:21:47 AM
by stillpointdancer