Nothing makes sense right now!!

[niza]

Been reading many posts...and the words just ringing in my head. Nothing makes sense now. Nothing registers. Go through this often even while working.

Does one just drop everything to practise calming mind in such phases...or just keep the persistent effort to work/read ??

Love,
Niza

[Masauwu]

Adding too many ideas to the mind can contribute to confusion, practicing calming the mind usually cultivates clarity.

[Andrew]

Hi Niza,

2 hours of meditation for 3 years and a month of storm sensations sound like you are actually going through some very profound changes. It would be great to know more about your path and goals with this high level of dedication you have shown.

There are as many goals for this life as there are people, and no two ever really have the same goals. So what might be right for me, won't work for you, except to say it would work towards my goals not yours!

I know there is an assumption that we are working towards the elimination of suffering, etc etc, but that is a goal that a doctor could perhaps have, one doesn't have to meditate to eliminate the immediate effects of pain for example.

My only advice would be if you know exactly why you are doing what you are doing, then keep going, otherwise take a step back get your bearings and direction. For me a broad understanding of the many methods and goals has really helped me understand my own path.

loving friendliness to you

Andrew

[niza]

Andrew... there is no real story and no goal... stumbled onto the first 10 day retreat (SNG) quite by mistake without an inkling of what im getting into... just had spare time and someone had been really pushing me to do the course...that was in the year 2006.

Post first retreat the changes were distinct... increased awareness, concentration, calm state of mind...greater productivity...clarity...usefulness etc. Kept on with the practise of 1 hour till 2008. The second evening sitting was always difficult. Would fall asleep. That suddenly changed and sat 2 hours thereafter till 2011. Have not read much...just followed instructions as given in the retreats.

Keeping practise on just seems the right thing to do... and nothing else appeals more ...Actually cant help but meditate.....its like a normal part of a days routine....However post the Satipatthana Retreat last year...the journey has taken on a very tough turn...challenges are so many...all the benefits seem to be going in the reverse direction apparantly...

Many intense emotions....crying...unpleasant sensations..like the stormy sea...there is no clarity just yet...however cant give up the practise no matter how tough the journey is..

Where are you. HERE! What is the time? NOW! What are you. The PRESENT MOMENT. Thats the journey..the destination..the bearings...the persistent effort to be in the present moment..havta keep reminding myself everytime i fall/fail.

Love,
Niza

[Jeeprs]

I don't know what is happening for you. Nothing like that has ever happened to me, so I can't be much help. My only thought is, are there any Buddhist teachers in your vicinity? It might be helpful to meet a teacher in the flesh, and describe what is happening. That is all I can suggest.

[Matthew]

Niza, listen to your inner stories and give them space with equanimity, if you can.

M

[Masauwu]

Hi Niza,

Can you describe your meditation to us, what do you do during a sitting? If it`s the body scanning technique, observing sensations is not quite enough, one should include mental phenomena and treat whatever appears there with mindfulness and equanimity, just like sensations.

[Andrew]

Where are you. HERE! What is the time? NOW! What are you. The PRESENT MOMENT. Thats the journey..the destination..the bearings...the persistent effort to be in the present moment..havta keep reminding myself everytime i fall/fail.

Wow, that is very clear.

I don't have the experience to give advise about what you are going through, but these goals are so strong and clear that I think you are at place where clear instruction from an enlightened meditator is overdue. As you method is insight based, I would say you are on the 'Stages of Insight Maps' well and truly.

 http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB%20The%20Progress%20of%20Insight?p_r_p_185834411_title=MCTB%20The%20Progress%20of%20Insight

love
Andrew

[Morning Dew]

Many intense emotions....crying...unpleasant sensations..like the stormy sea...there is no clarity just yet...however cant give up the practise no matter how tough the journey is..

This is the exact story "I" am going through. This part of the path is known as Dukkha Nanas aka The Knowledges of Suffering aka Dark Night.

This is the ultimate learning ground where we study the 4 Noble Truths but especially the 2nd and 3rd. Stable Equanimity is the reword. The Dark Night is the building ground of Equanimity.
There are no short cuts. One must fully realise the Dukkha Nanas (get to know them, clearly percieve them), all of them, otherwise one will cycle through them again and again and again.

The way to clearly percieve Dukkha Nanas is by looking at the Three Characteristics as often as possible. All this is to be based on Calm-abiding structure. Calming the bodily formations means being kind towards the body by calming it.

I too feel that sitting is the only way there is even though this experience is wrecking "me".
Note; who is this which is feeling so bad? Is it "me"? If not "me" than who is this one suffering?? What is this suffering phenomena? Is there a "me"??
This is the way of contemplating the Non-self Characteristic.

Suffering exists because we cling to desire and aversion.
Once we stop clinging to phenomena by clearly percieving The Three Characteristics of all Arisings Suffering stops also.
Equanimity is not something one can Fabricate. It must be actualy realised in the melting oven of the Dark Night. Otherwise, intelectualy forced equanimity is nothing more but a fabricated suppressing of emotions, which is Ignorance. Dont go there.

Remaining in the Dark Night is chalenging. It must like surfing the huge waves. Aline on the board and a huge heavy wave crushing behind your back just about to swollow you into the abyss.
But who is this "me" percieving it thid way?? Who is this "I"??
Contemplate it, dont think it, contemplate it, keep the question alive and let the answer come in an abstract yet profound form.

I suggest to familiarise yourself with Daniel Ingram's book Mastering The Core Teachings of the Buddha and to start building a Calm base by starting your practice as Calm-abiding(as suggested in our article). Since you know Vipassana, insight will come on its own once the body is calm.

Calm body will produce Dopamine and Serotonin which will help counteracting Adrenaline and Cortisol. Such body will calm the agitated mind and Vipassana can be percieved with Calm Clarity.

Do not underestimate Calm-abiding. It is an actual way to show kindness towards your body-mind.

Dark Night is dark because the false sense of Self is building Aversion towards the dark emotions and by Desiering peace, calm, relaxation, better times, better meditation, etc.
The lecture is to see the Suffering as it Is. It is transient, unsatisfactory and non-self.

Once this is Actualy, not Intelectually, but Actualy percieved, Equanimity will be the end product. One does not chase Equanimity, it happens on its own as a result of crearly percieving the Three Characteristics.

Welcome to the club
Your not alone in this

Be well

[niza]

Masauwu,

During a sitting...normally start with 5-10 mins of anapana first...focussing on natural breath as it comes in and as it goes out while keeping attention on spot above mouth...or below nostrils...Sometimes do this the entire hour...

And then focus on body sensations from top of the head right till the toes...or in various directions...in the process..automatically mental phenomena arises...one notices that ..accepts and continues working with sensations...

Right now its all such a jumble..that dunno what is mental..what is physical... its just this mass of agitated cells or atoms ...

Taming the Tsunami (seems strange calling u that though),

Comforting words there...will pick up the book...thanks...The "I" feeling is so much there...A question pops up..if equanimity is to be realised in the midst of the hot oven of suffering....then how can one have a calm body anywhere in the process?

Love to all for the inputs and support,
Niza

[Morning Dew]

Taming the Tsunami (seems strange calling u that though

Call me Dusko

..if equanimity is to be realised in the midst of the hot oven of suffering....then how can one have a calm body anywhere in the process?

Words can only give so much. This is a Do It Yourself thing and see it for what it is. Try and see. Tell me what you notice pleaze.

Be well

[Andrew]

http://www.vipassanaforum.net/forum/index.php/topic,1316.0.html

Just in case!

A

[Andrew]

Dark Night is dark because the false sense of Self is building Aversion towards the dark emotions and by Desiering peace, calm, relaxation, better times, better meditation, etc.

How does something that is 'false' build anything?

There is aversion. There is no self. There are dark emotions. There is no self. There is desire. There is no self. There is peace. There is no self. There is memory. There is no self. There is planning. There is no self. There is better meditation once you realise there is no self.

Seeing thoughts are thoughts, including the thought "I exist" is all that is required.

I too feel that sitting is the only way there is even though this experience is wrecking "me".
Note; who is this which is feeling so bad? Is it "me"? If not "me" than who is this one suffering?? What is this suffering phenomena? Is there a "me"??
This is the way of contemplating the Non-self Characteristic.

This is not the way to contemplate no self.

This is how;

who is this which is feeling so bad?

note: "That is a thought."

realisation: "No one is asking it and no one will answer it. It is not a self and does not originate from a self. It is eight words strung together only."

 Is it "me"?

 
note: "That is a thought."

realisation: "No one is asking it and no one will answer it. It is not a self and does not originate from a self. It is three words strung together only."

 If not "me" than who is this one suffering??

note: "That is a thought."

realisation: "No one is asking it and no one will answer it. It is not a self and does not originate from a self. It is nine words strung together only."

 What is this suffering phenomena?

you get the picture.

Our minds are full of thoughts. Inside those thoughts are stories. one of the stories is called "self".Realise this and apply it all the time. Don't ask why, or what, just apply what is right there to see "this is not self, doesn't arise from a self, or belong to a self"

No one is writing this and no one is reading it. There is typing, there are thoughts and there are words, and a story about a fictional character called Andrew and his fictional friend called Dusko.

happy days.

A

[Vivek]

Niza,

Keeping practise on just seems the right thing to do... and nothing else appeals more ...Actually cant help but meditate.....its like a normal part of a days routine....However post the Satipatthana Retreat last year...the journey has taken on a very tough turn...challenges are so many...all the benefits seem to be going in the reverse direction apparantly...

Many intense emotions....crying...unpleasant sensations..like the stormy sea...there is no clarity just yet...however cant give up the practise no matter how tough the journey is..

The journey is going to be tough till the Awakening. Unpleasant emotions, intense sensations, all will come. They have to. Let them come and go. Remember: mindfulness and equanimity, both are equally important, like the two wheels of a cart. Check if you are clinging to past memories of "smooth sailing" through Vipassana. Let go of the memories of pleasantness and smoothness you have experienced in your practice in the past. Let go of clinging to them. Clinging to them, wanting those experiences to come back will only cause more misery.   

[Morning Dew]

Andy, contemplation is thoughts
Koan is thoughts.
An applied thought.
Thought can be a tool too.
I do understand what you are saying.

[Andrew]

Tools?
Maybe, if there was someone wielding them. If they are tools, it isn't us using them.

[niza]

Too many thoughts confuseth "me"!

[Morning Dew]

Ok Ok

[Andrew]

Hi Niza,

Perfect time to look and see.  Is 'me' really there?

like at the circus when the clown hides the ball under the cups, choose one;

Thoughts,

Feelings,

Sensations.

But now you are allowed to look under all three and also check inside the cups.

Anything? 

[Morning Dew]

Andrew,
You realised no self yet something is restless in "you" not allowing you to sit daily 1h streight. You sure you actualy realised non-self and are not intelectualy solidifying it into an idea?

No need to answer this to me.

[Andrew]

There is no restlessness, just a sore arse. I've got an inflatable cushion coming to fix that.

[Matthew]

Too many thoughts confuseth "me"!

Very important to try and keep on topic with such a question as Niza asked.

Niza, yes, you just keep sitting. That is the short answer.

Try adding an element of relaxation to the practice perhaps? Relaxed yet concentrated awakeness is the first stopping off point - getting that balance right leads to finding the equanimity you seem to need to make more sense of this storm of sensations.

Be well,

Matthew

[Morning Dew]

Very important to try and keep on topic with such a question as Niza asked.

You are right. Sorry Niza we got taken away a bit
Back on track