Author Topic: Jesus Was a Buddhist Student- and the son of Julius Caesar and Cleopatra  (Read 13685 times)

Matthew

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The Arabic name for Jesus is Issa - which means son of Isis (Cleopatra)

http://www.tombofjesus.com

BBC Documentary (part 1 other parts linked thereafter):

Jesus in Kashmir,India(BBC Documentry)-1

From "Ring of Power" (five hour documentary on youtube)

Jesus Christ the son of Julius Cesear & Cleopatra? (1 of 3)

Jesus Christ the son of Julius Cesear & Cleopatra? (2 of 3)

Jesus Christ the son of Julius Cesear & Cleopatra? (3 of 3)
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Stefan

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Which brings us to the next step ...

Christus and Krishna have the same word-stem ...
anicca

Jeeprs

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Bought a copy of Joseph Campbell's Hero with a Thousand Faces the other day. I am familiar with the book and have read excerpts from it. It is essential reading for a way it situates and understand the nature and power of myth.

Andrew

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Gaius Julius Caesar (13 July 100 BC – 15 March 44 BC)

Cleopatra VII Philopator (Late 69 BC – August 12, 30 BC)

Jesus  c.4 BC - 29 AD

Dates just don't add up.

 Remember there are over 1500 manuscripts dating back to around 70 AD attesting to the documents of the gospels. No other ancient book has anywhere near that number. There are no manuscripts before that though. If Jesus was born 50 years previous to the accepted dates then we would find earlier evidence. There isn't any.

 In the Dead Sea Scrolls which were written between 150BC and 70AD, there is a single messianic verse, that's it. One sentence. If the Messianic movement had spread earlier than 70 AD (the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans and the dispersion of the Jews, hence the names of the new testament books) , this radical group (the Essenes)would have known about it. All they have is one sentence out of hundreds of scrolls.

 And it is not just the bible that records these things, roman records of the christian persecutions and the martyrdom of men like St John (not of the Cross!), Peter are also well attested. Those dates are known. These men said they walked and talked with Jesus and were prepared to die horrible deaths for saying it. Generally con men are living it up somewhere on the money they fleeced from the flock (modern TV evangelists), not hanging upside down on crosses (which they insisted on as they said they were not worthy to be crucified in the same manner as christ).   

No doubt there is a lot of bullshit in the way the mystics wrote it all down (that is very common in shamans everywhere) , but the events described match the dates given above. There is no need for Jesus to be anything other than a Jewish peasant born around the year Zero and dying 30 odd years later.

That he was heavily influenced by Buddhism is obvious, and that he was a meditator is in the plain text (for anyone who has meditated and reads the gospels, they will see the references everywhere)

His 'meditation' instructions were this, pray something simple (he gave the Lords Prayer) and lock yourself in the closet keeping your words few!

They were all mystics; Jesus and the guys who wrote the bible. They are not the problem, it was the Romans who made the modern version of orthodoxy and excommunication, labelling people heretics, persecution of outsiders, the worst being the militant evangelism which has ruined the world.

I've got a whole book coming on this stuff. I spent my teenage years learning koine greek (new testament language), studying the history and whatever I could get on the original meanings of things. It is only now I have tasted meditation that I can see the actual meanings hiding in plain sight! These dudes had to hide it all in dramatic stories so it could be easily remembered hoping one day that people will decode it. When you are meeting in underground graves (catacombs) you don't really get the chance to do much more than transmit the stories, pray, and get out before you are missed.

There was no sitting around under trees getting mindful when your own people (Jews) and the invaders (Romans) both want you dead! The great mystic St Paul can attest to that, he was both Roman and Jew and was the chief persecutor of the believers before his conversion.

Shanti

Andrew





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Vivek

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There are historical records attesting that Jesus came to India to further his spiritual pursuit. Historical evidence suggest that he studied various spiritual traditions in Kashmir, Varanasi and Rajagriha (an ancient city in Central India, it was the capital of a kingdom called Magadha, where the Buddha disseminated most of his teachings). He seems to have been mainly influenced by Buddhism and Vedanta (statements in the Bible like, "I and my Father are one" etc indicate a strong Advaitic influence, it is strikingly similar to Upanishadic declarations such as, "Aham Brahmasmi"). Jesus then finally seems to have focussed mainly on Tibetan Buddhism (his final destination was Tibet) before he finally returned to his land. Thus, have I heard. Whether any or all of this is true, maybe we will never know.

That Jesus was the son of Caesar and Cleopatra, is new knowledge to me.
Let's go beyond this illusion, shall we?

Andrew

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No reason to doubt he made the trip. It would explain a lot. St Paul doesn't hide the fact he spent time with the arabian desert, who knows who he met out there.

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Stefan

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I want to bring it on again, since there are a lot of people here who seriously dived into that matter.

What's about this Christus-Krishna similarity? Anyone knows where that origins from?
anicca

Jeeprs

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Hate to be the wet blanket, but few qualified scholars of archaeology or religious studies believe that Jesus lived in India.  There are also legends of Jesus in America, and Jesus in Great Britain. It's a lovely story, though, I agree.

Stefan

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Asterix in America ... I know that one at least!!  ;D

As for Christus and Krishna ... it would be VERY unlikely that both have been the same person. And I don't think that Jesus was called Christus in lifetime. Wasn't that later added to his name? Still I'd be much interested who,  why and when someone chose the name of a Hindi god (especially this one!) to be added to Jesus.

Christians and Krishnas ... I'd simply love to know where that originated from.

Metta, Stefan

PS.: As for Jesus in America ... ever considered what had happened if Jesus lived in America recently? He'd have been killed on the electic chair instead of the cross, and the modern christians would wear a tiny silver or wooden electric chair on a necklace ... ahem .... better forget about it ...
anicca

chintan

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I read Jesus lived in India about 12 years back - much before my interest in Buddhism grew. Went to Kashmir after that in 2003 and visited Roza Bal shrine (which the book claims is where Jesus is buried). The caretaker there merely called him Asaf Pir and did not engage me in much conversation. The notable thing is that the shrine is revered by Buddhists from Ladakh, Muslims from Kashmir and also Hindus - but that could be because there are a lot of shrines of Sufi saints which have both Hindu and Muslim followers.

Have not been to Ladakh but plan to one day go there and visit Hemis monastry where apparently Jesus spent a lot of time. There is a mention in JLIN of encounter between Christian missionaries who reached Ladakh in 18th century and when they tried to convert the local Buddhists by telling them about Christ they wre told that he is already worshiped as a Bodhisattva..

There is more than coincidental similarity between - Ish - sanskrit root for God, Ishwar means God and Issa Masih (God's angel) as Jesus is called in India... Christ is not a name used for him in India and Krishna actually comes from a separate root which means dark - Krishna is said to have had dark complexion which is quite an anomaly since this color is reserved for asuras (demons) in Hindu mythology.

Net net too confusing though I am surprised that there is so much of confusion around this subject am sure if we were to dig Rozabal - get a DNA sample and match it with the blood from Christ's shroud or some other source with the Church we would get some answers.. but imagine the ramifications.. so lets let the mystery be.

Amen..

Vivek

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Quote from: Stefan
What's about this Christus-Krishna similarity? Anyone knows where that origins from?
Stefan, I have read a detailed analysis related to the silimarities between the backgrounds of Christ and Krishna about a decade ago. I don't remember the source, but there were around 25-30 similarities listed out with references backing each one.   

Quote from: chintan
Krishna is said to have had dark complexion which is quite an anomaly since this color is reserved for asuras (demons) in Hindu mythology.
Even though the root "krish" refers to dark, it was meant more symbolically rather than literally, as are almost all of Krishna's other titles (except some like Devakinandana, since he was the son of Devaki). The most accepted interpretation of "Krishna" is, he who is in the dark, meaning, he who is not easily apprehended (by the worldly, but easily apprehended by the truly wise ones). Evidently, Krishna's life and work are a mystery to many. The root "krish" also refers to "to process", hence, the word "krishi", which refers to farming, cultivation etc. So, in that line of thinking, "Krishna" is interpreted as the one who helps the seekers of Truth "cultivate" their minds. 

Quote from: chintan
...get a DNA sample and match it with the blood from Christ's shroud or some other source with the Church we would get some answers..
Actually, the shroud was taken for forensic analysis around 20 years back, and it was proved to be a fake; it wasn't even 2000 years old. I saw a documentary on it in the History channel long time back.
Let's go beyond this illusion, shall we?

Jeeprs

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I want to bring it on again, since there are a lot of people here who seriously dived into that matter.

What's about this Christus-Krishna similarity? Anyone knows where that origins from?

My answer, strictly unorthodox, is that 'the Son' will incarnate from time to time for the benefit of Mankind. This is very much in line with the Indian view of things. They would think it laughable that 'Jesus is the only son of God'. Christ is the only son, yes. But that is because Christ is the universal living saviour. IN this view, Christ is indeed the universal presence. That is the sense in which He is 'the only son of god' - not because Jesus is the only form of Christ.  That is why I bought up the Campbell book 'Hero with a Thousand Faces'. These figures are incarnations or avatars or mythical beings. There is actually a very close resemblance to the Jesus myth and the myth of Apollo which predates it by centuries.

None of that should be taken to mean that I don't believe that Jesus lived, taught, performed miracles, and rose from the dead. That is just another perspective on the question.

But you can't say these things. Not Allowed. There are too many sensitivities and uncertainties and unknowns. Christians would never be able to accommodate that perspective, it is the kind of things the gnostics used to say, and get punished for. 


Besides, spiritually, that doesn't really matter anyway. The whole purpose of the teaching is to live the truth, not to get caught up in speculations or myth-teries. :D Life is short, the way is steep, and there is no time to waste. So if Jesus is your Saviour, then the only thing needful is to act accordingly.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 01:04:10 PM by Jeeprs »

Stefan

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right on, Jeeprs! I share your view in a non-clinging way ... means I discovered a while ago that I don't actually know these things and won't find out by thinking about it. I can only extrapolate from my experiences, or, in other words: I guess ...  ;) .

I am at peace with god ... means I told him at a young age that I don't have a clue wether he exists, what he's up to or how he should be approached, wether he inhabits a heaven or lives inside my heart .... I told him I am sorry for that and no offence meant. He seems to be cool with this ...

... I decided to go all the way and have a look for myself. And if I discover that he really is a big beard in the sky ... so be it ... or if he really is the flying spaghetti munster of the pastafaranians ... so be it ... or maybe he really is the impersonate nothing that he is claimed to be in some scriptures ... I'll find out myself ...

but still, I am interested who in european history chose a hindi name for "our" salvator ... and why ...
just an intellectual interest there ...
anicca

Andrew

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They didn't chose a hindu name. The indo-European root language originated in the Caucus (from memory)
Christos is koine greek which is a decendent language that shares a common heritage with the indian subcontinent . they both have the same great great great great great grandfather!  (Also from memory! I hate googling too much, make the mind dull)

The origin of civilization is slap bang in the middle between the east and the west, so also is the root languages for europe, the middle east, and india,.
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Jeeprs

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The origin of civilization is slap bang in the middle between the east and the west, so also is the root languages for europe, the middle east, and india,

Quite true. I have studied both Sanskrit and Pali, though I am not proficient in either, but in any case, there are very many common word roots between these languages and European languages. The Sanskrit-speaking peoples appeared from the Central Asian plains in pre-historic times, swept into the Indian sub-continent, then also into Persia ('Iran' is actually a version of 'Aryan') and then into the Mediterranean basin.

One of the most fascinating things I studied were the ideas of Max Muller, who was a brilliant intellectual and one of the first European scholars of Sanskrit. He wrote about 'linguistic archaeology' which is understanding when all these cultures diverged from each other by analysing their languages and the roots of common words.

Stefan

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... so ...
you say we can definitely drop the idea that Krsna was actually the son of Cleopatra and Anakin Skywalker?   ;D

well, thanks for elaborating! a very interesting topic, that is.
anicca

Matthew

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Hate to be the wet blanket, but few qualified scholars of archaeology or religious studies believe that Jesus lived in India.  There are also legends of Jesus in America, and Jesus in Great Britain. It's a lovely story, though, I agree.

They're wrong. The Vatican has documentary proof Jesus lived in India. It just rather mucks up their story. And they have a long history of manipulating history, even facts and scientific proofs.
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Stefan

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The Vatican ...  they have a long history of manipulating history, even facts and scientific proofs.


that's why they lost their origin, their roots, the truth behind the words.
Every lie will increase confusion ... of the listener as well as the teller.

 ;) they even hushed up the fact that the "god" who led the hebraeans out of Egypt was a UFO and their alien crew ....  ;) ... at least that would explain a lot ... all this violence and destruction ...
anicca

Matthew

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Don't worry too much about the Vatican. Pope Rat is going to be the last pope.

Matthew
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Andrew

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This is an appropriate place to put this re-occurring thought;

Jesus and his tradition is like a scientific control for what Buddhism looked like 2000 years ago.Within 300 years of christ, the doctrines of Chistendom were all but locked down and the bible itself was being worshipped. That means all these sayings and quotes reflect alot of what were the prevailing thoughts of the time (which we can see were buddhist in nature) without out being altered by the middle ages. (we still have many of the very early manuscripts)

By comparing what has been locked down in the bible with what is recorded in the suttas (but less locked down), patterns may emerge of what understandings were being transmitted throughout the middle east and perhaps a reflection of what was going on in India and the east at the time.

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Jeeprs

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These are all weighty matters. However one thing that has often occurred to me is that 'the teaching of Jesus' actually has more in common with 'the teaching of Buddha' than it does with Greek philosophy, with which it became merged in the early centuries of the Church.

So here's an interesting hypothetical: how different would Christianity had been, if it had been amalgamated with Buddhism, instead of being amalgamated with Greek Philosophy? I personally think a kind of 'Christian dharma' approach makes a lot of sense. In fact there are quite a few 'Christian dharma' type teachings around, as we have discussed before.

Another enormous difference between the life of Jesus, and the life of the Buddha, was that India was a far more civilized place than the Judea of Jesus.  India already had an ancient philosophical culture, which was quite accomodating of difference, as opposed to the 'warring tribal deties' model of Judea. So the Buddha was allowed to teach, peacefully and without harrasment, for 45 years, as opposed to Jesus, who fell foul of the ecclesiastical authorities and was publicly executed after only a few short years of teaching.

However, I suppose another difference is that the Buddha was not known as a 'miracle healer'. His approach, I suppose, really was nearer that of Socrates, despite the differences I noted above in content - to engage in rational discussion, talk topics through, illustrate important points with examples, and so on.

Andrew

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So here's an interesting hypothetical: how different would Christianity had been, if it had been amalgamated with Buddhism, instead of being amalgamated with Greek Philosophy? I personally think a kind of 'Christian dharma' approach makes a lot of sense. In fact there are quite a few 'Christian dharma' type teachings around, as we have discussed before.


That I suppose is the big question here, and if Matthew is right about the demise of the Pope without replacement, maybe the world will see some interesting documents from those infamous archives. Certainly will rattle some cages.  What we need is a Julian Assange of the Vatican.  Vati-leaks!

The other possibility is that the traditions are not cross pollinated much at all, but rather once you get down to the level of reality dealt with by Masters you start seeing and saying similar things. The difference only being things they count as unimportant (cultural legends and mythology) so jesus talks about being one with god, while buddha talked about being supremely awake.  The simple fact is neither men were islands, the traditions they came form go back at least 3000 years each. Plenty of past masters and accumulated knowledge is also transmitted in the texts. Put it this way; I found the entire 'golden flower meditation' in the first two chapters of genesis, it is hiding in plain site! (It is actually the guided meditation I went through last week spontaneously of sorts) Genesis was written at least 2500 years ago by an anonymous jewish mystic.

Something very profound was going on at that time in terms of revelations of esoteric truth.
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Matthew

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Why do you think the Vatican archives are as strongly defended as the Gold Bullion at the Bank of England or Fort Knox in the USA?

Vati-leaks is the biggest fear of the Catholic Church. But it has begun. The widespread knowledge of Crimen Solicitatis (and Cardinal Ratzinger's re-writing of it to defend Paedophile Priests even more) is the beginning of the end.

M
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Andrew

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When I was 10-12 years old, all I could think of was how much I hated the catholic church for what it did to Christianity. It took a poor man's religion of compassion and turn it into the worlds most destructive organisation. Even non-catholic christians are not free of it's destructive power and influence. Instead of the gnosis religion of peasants we have the 'believe this or die' religion of kings.

Everything the world hates about Jesus is actually the legacy of Caesar and his Empire. Everything the Romans did then they continued to do under the banner of Christ. There are few tragedies more profound.*

It still sucks to be Jesus it would seem, but perhaps his day is coming after all.

Pope Rat. It couldn't be more poetic that the last one would be called that. Unless his real last name was Liar.

*Edit: The next time someone is rattling off like a rabid street preacher, just let them know 'Caesar is dead, you can knock it off now!'


« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 09:39:22 AM by Andrew »
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Matthew

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Jeeprs,

You make some important points. "Christianity" did not exist at the time of Christ - as Buddhism did not exist at the time of Buddha. Buddha was not exactly allowed to teach without hindrance. In fact there were several politically motivated attempts at his life, including the final one which killed him. Though he did eat the poison dish he was served he did not allow any of the other Sangha to partake of it.

Both Buddhism and Christianity as we know them are political/religious outcomes that stem from the Gnostic Truth and it's transformational effect on individuals and hence society and power politics. They are diluted truths aimed at placing Gnosis and the heights of realisation beyond us "mere mortals":

Christianity is the political doctrine of the failing Roman empire and one of it's last attempts to cling to power by subsuming and dictating "Christian Truth". The meeting of the Cardinals of the catholic Church is the meeting of the Senate of Rome, the power base of the "Holy Roman Empire". It's truths were selectively and politically chosen for inclusion in the bible. A small number of the existent gospels were chosen and re-written to make it a mystery (and misery) doctrine placing Christ as the one and only Son of God at the centre. Important texts - principally the Gnostic Gospels were left out. The Gospel of Thomas is probably the most important but there were many other Gnostic Gospels.

Buddhism became a neutered and watered down version of the Buddha's truths by around 50BC. By that time the Kings and Warlords had asserted their dominance and Buddhist monks were largely confined to behind the monastery walls. The Buddha had been deified and realisation of his nature placed beyond us mere mortals. This was because the Buddhist wanderers were respected as teachers of truth, medics and good judges/mediators in disputes. They were gaining too much power as a result. Across the Buddhist world they were slowly forced to live behind the walls of the monasteries and so their power base diluted, so did the true Dhamma and the distinction between the laity and the priesthood/monastics was established, in order to contain and control.

Andrew: regarding "cross-pollination", start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_Gnosticism

It is obvious from the beginning of the Gospel of Thomas (which consists only of the words of Jesus recorded by Thomas and with no commentary) that cross-pollination was a key to Christ's teachings:

'In its opening words the Gospel of Thomas offers a stunning hermeneutic challenge: "whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death."'

"Buddhahood: The Tathāgata is the Giver of the Deathless".

A few tidbits of Thomas' Gospel which clearly have Buddhist influence:

Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you . For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest."

(Awakening - commonly mistranslated as 'Enlightenment')

Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will give rise to sin for yourselves; and if you pray, you will be condemned; and if you give alms, you will do harm to your spirits. When you go into any land and walk about in the districts, if they receive you, eat what they will set before you, and heal the sick among them. For what goes into your mouth will not defile you, but that which issues from your mouth - it is that which will defile you."

(Exactly what the Buddha told his disciples to do: walk amongst the people, accept alms, heal the sick, mend wounds between people)

Jesus said, "Blessed is the man who has suffered and found life."

....

Matthew
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