Author Topic: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana  (Read 20840 times)

Stefan

  • The Marvellous Omannobazong!!!
  • Member
  • love is the key
    • Vipassana (Goenka), Freestyle, Family, God
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2011, 11:38:16 AM »

Am I missing the humour of your post if I say Matthew post isn't intellectualising at al


Yes, I think you do.

On the other hand, in all the priceless truths that Matthew is pointing out, there is sometimes a little bit of "my Shamatha is better than your bodyscanning-Goenka-style-that-is-called-Vipassana-by-a-bunch-of-intellectualised-technical-Buddhists".  ;)
Maybe I am wrong. Only practice can point that out, not Matthews attitude on that. But in my opinion it is highly unlikely that there's only one way to summit.

But no, I won't discuss pros and cons of this vs that technique.
I will only sign this: calling the body-scanning-technique "Vipassana" is quite unhandy.
I'll be going on with body-scanning the way I have been taught because I see the results.

Metta & Shanti, Stefan

« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 11:40:40 AM by The Marvellous Omannobazong!!! »
anicca

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2011, 02:02:01 PM »
Here we go again  ::) history is repeating itself. Everything goes in the circle! Body and Mind. Arising and Passing. Dark Night/knowledges of suffering. Equanimity. Etc...
Its a circle. We pass through the same over and over again. Something to do with the Moon with Sun with whole fcucking Universe.
It would be easier if im a woman to trace this pre-menstrual and past-menstrual Phenomena. But like this i must actualy look up into the sky and see whether the Full Moon is about to happen. At this time my emotions usualy go balistic.
Anywho Cheers to the new wave of Shamatha-Goenka Wars  :P

Or not! It is up to you.

Quote
On the other hand, in all the priceless truths that Matthew is pointing out, there is sometimes a little bit of "my Shamatha is better than your bodyscanning-Goenka-style-that-is-called-Vipassana-by-a-bunch-of-intellectualised-technical-Buddhists"

Btw, Metallica is better than Sex Pistiols  (throw the bone inbetween the dogs and see what happens) :P

Me-Ta-ta ;)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 02:04:19 PM by Morning Dew »

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2011, 02:22:06 PM »

Am I missing the humour of your post if I say Matthew post isn't intellectualising at al


Yes, I think you do.

On the other hand, in all the priceless truths that Matthew is pointing out, there is sometimes a little bit of "my Shamatha is better than your bodyscanning-Goenka-style-that-is-called-Vipassana-by-a-bunch-of-intellectualised-technical-Buddhists".  ;)
Maybe I am wrong. Only practice can point that out, not Matthews attitude on that. .....

That is your opinion. The Suttas speak for themselves. There is no such thing as Vipassana meditation. There is a lot of stuff called it but that is a different matter.

And how can you tell the difference between the "priceless truths" you say I offer, and "mine is better than yours"? Is that not perhaps an aspect of clinging in your mind? Practice is where it is at.

Much love,

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Vivek

  • Moderator
  • Staff
    • Advaita & U Ba Khin's tradition
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2011, 02:39:37 PM »
Quote from: TMO
I'll be going on with body-scanning the way I have been taught because I see the results.
TMO, I am sure you must be aware that "body scanning" (I am not sure who or from where this term originated) is just the starting point in the technique. The important station is to become aware of the whole body (all sensations, gross or subtle, both within as well as on the surface the body). It is only to reach this point that practitioners are trained to move part-by-part of the body. I believe Lokuttara had also pointed this out before. The goal (intermediate, not the final) is always whole-body awareness. But, in order that we get fully established in the third segment of the practice, Pativedhana (meaning "piercing" or "penetrating", which comes after Pariyatti and Patipatti), we are first trained to go part-by-part. That is why, I believe that it is pointless to argue on which method is the best, because all methods more or less take us to the same point. 

I apologise if I sounded a little preachy. Just thought I could point this out, in case we are missing this. :)
Let's go beyond this illusion, shall we?

torgeir

  • Guest
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2011, 03:07:06 PM »
Quote
Btw, Metallica is better than Sex Pistiols


Listen carefully, I shall say this only once...
Or actually I'll keep on saying it until everyone has given up clinging to their ego and have converted to my point of view, so that I can say I am right and you are wrong. Which, by the way, is the correct point of view (all others being false) because I am an authority on these matters, and I have all the texts to back me up:

Sex Pistols rule out Metallica by a whole lot.

Nowhere in the history of any music literature does it ever refer to Metallica as being punk rock. There is a lot of stuff called punk rock, but that is a different matter. The texts in the music press speak for themselves.

In fact, contrary to popular belief, there is technically no such thing as rock'n roll. There are many things that might lead a person to the experience of rock'n roll, in fact the first mention of the term "rock'n roll" doesn't appear in any historical text until a 1951 Nashville Sun article about the Second Street Baptist Church Gospel Choir. But to call a set of notes laid out in a certain pattern for rock music is technically faulty.

And I shall keep on pressing my point until the term "rock" in reference to music is erased from the English language altogether, or at least until the conceptual understanding behind it has been radically changed (because I am right and all the others just don't understand).

Right?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 03:39:07 PM by torgeir »

Stefan

  • The Marvellous Omannobazong!!!
  • Member
  • love is the key
    • Vipassana (Goenka), Freestyle, Family, God
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2011, 04:11:20 PM »

Hei Matthew, surely no offence meant. (You know that).
I think it's a little flaw of yours, and right you say, this is my opinion (see signature).
I am happy to spot a little flaw in your truly priceless comments every now and then, otherwise you would be creepy ...   ;)

I don't mind. It's about words only. The suttas are words only. What you and I write are words only. What Dusko has in mind is a bit more to it, and I think Torgeir hits the hot spot pretty well. And actually I'd rather point out that Metallica is in no way Punk Rock at all, and if it comes to interesting licks on the guitar, I'd choose Steve Vai! But for dancing, the Pistols are better, but I'd choose Electro Swing or maybe Minimal Progressive Tech House ...

I said I won't discuss that. It's like a hornets nest.

Metta guys, just walk on, there's nothing to see here ...
anicca

Stefan

  • The Marvellous Omannobazong!!!
  • Member
  • love is the key
    • Vipassana (Goenka), Freestyle, Family, God
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2011, 04:17:42 PM »


Quote from: TMO
I'll be going on with body-scanning the way I have been taught because I see the results.

TMO, I am sure you must be aware that "body scanning" (I am not sure who or from where this term originated) is just the starting point in the technique. The important station is to become aware of the whole body ...


For the sake of not discussing it, I painted a picture rather than go into detail.  ;)  I'm with you word by word.

Metta, Stefan

anicca

Stefan

  • The Marvellous Omannobazong!!!
  • Member
  • love is the key
    • Vipassana (Goenka), Freestyle, Family, God
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2011, 04:19:56 PM »

Right?


As you wish, Master ...

 :D great comment of yours!
anicca

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2011, 10:28:04 PM »
Quote
Vipassana is not mentioned in the Sutta's as a meditation but as a "Phala" or fruit of meditation/Mindfullness/"Sati"....Vipassana or insight arises when the mind has calmed. It is seeing things as they are. ...


I am afraid this all sounds just like a .....

Meanwhile, I will go and do some Vipassana meditation. :D

* Matthew says in his best "Mr T" Voice, "I pity da fool who thinks he is doing Vipassana meditation".
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Andrew

  • Member
    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2011, 03:55:31 AM »
The more fools, the more pity.
getting it done

Andrew

  • Member
    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2011, 05:10:18 AM »
Quote
Btw, Metallica is better than Sex Pistiols



Sex Pistols rule out Metallica by a whole lot.


Right?

Wrong, both band suck quite substantially.  :P



Matthew said something which sums up were all of this focus should be,


Mindfulness is meditation


Torgeir, I'm pretty sure you have enough posts to your name to see this thread; have a read as I'm pretty sure you will benefit;

http://www.vipassanaforum.net/forum/index.php/topic,1576.0.html

If not, basically the deal is this, people often feel it is their duty to champion some point around here, and invariably they make Matthew the focus of that energy. What they are infact doing is letting their 'authority drama' show in public. Very common to look to the perceived alpha male and make a challenge, but it isn't mindful to think this is anything other that just another manifestation of the 'little self'.

forgive the judgement, I'm just putting that out there for your benefit young Jedi, not claiming some clairvoyant knowledge of what is good for you.

love

andrew
 
getting it done

Namaste

  • Guest
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2011, 05:27:55 AM »
Sex Pistols rule out Metallica by a whole lot.

Blatantly lying is a form of unskillful speech you know   ;)

Stefan

  • The Marvellous Omannobazong!!!
  • Member
  • love is the key
    • Vipassana (Goenka), Freestyle, Family, God
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2011, 07:28:01 AM »

... says in his best "Mr T" Voice, "I pity da fool who thinks he is doing Vipassana meditation".


huh ... huh ...

TMO-dresses-in-his-best-Vin-Diesel-face ...

"It's a word only ... which part of this sentence did you not understand?"

TMO-mutates-back-to-Louis-de-Funes-normality  :D
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 07:39:59 AM by The Marvellous Omannobazong!!! »
anicca

Stefan

  • The Marvellous Omannobazong!!!
  • Member
  • love is the key
    • Vipassana (Goenka), Freestyle, Family, God
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2011, 07:39:37 AM »

 'authority drama'


 :)

there's two sides of that coin:
1) Attack alpha-male to become leader of the pack.
2) Back up alpha-male no matter what he says.

abandoning this authority coin ... what do we have then? A fellow meditator who is extremely helpful but not enlightened yet and who may also need a hint or two. Not everything that is said to Matthew is to be filed under authority drama. Not everything.

In the meantime ... Johnny Rotten was at least authentic while ...
*runs-away-screaming-and-hides-in-the-forests-of-brazil*

 ;D this thread has been thoroughly shanghaied ... Metta!
anicca

Andrew

  • Member
    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2011, 08:12:35 AM »
Hi TMO,

Third side of coin; try and connect with mysterious Torgier!

Both my challenges I have said 'forgive me if I'm wrong', and both I mean it. It just seamed to me that out of the blue we hear from our fascinating Jedi friend and within a post or two his new found fire is directed at Matthew.

For the record, whether it is called 'vipasanna' or 'vanilla and banana' meditation it's all the same thing to me;  Mindfulness Meditation!!   :D :D :D

I would have thought in your quantum splender you knew coins had more than two sides, I'm somewhat surprised.  :P

love

Andrew
getting it done

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2011, 08:20:27 AM »
Andy you can ignore this advice but waste no energy on TMO and Torgeir and Matthew can defend himself. You are doing the same as you did when going agaist Matthew just this time you are Protecting the Autorithy figure :)
TMO is clearly bored and that is fine. Toregir is very likely bored too. Me too.
Part of the path i guess.
Sitting craves energy Andy. You will not calm your mind by playing these balls with TMO.

I might be wrong though.

May you have wisdom to decide what is best

Stefan

  • The Marvellous Omannobazong!!!
  • Member
  • love is the key
    • Vipassana (Goenka), Freestyle, Family, God
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2011, 09:23:59 AM »


Andy you can ignore this advice but waste no energy on TMO and Torgeir and Matthew can defend himself. You are doing the same as you did when going agaist Matthew just this time you are Protecting the Autorithy figure :)
TMO is clearly bored and that is fine. Toregir is very likely bored too. Me too.
Part of the path i guess.
Sitting craves energy Andy. You will not calm your mind by playing these balls with TMO.


Cut to the core! Precisely!

Cher Andy, we all pointed out our opinions on that, had a good amount of joking as well as a good amount of laughter (at least I did) while knowing we don't need to change the view of the others. And as far as I am concerned, that was it. War has been cancelled. But I'll be around if anyone wants to play ball ...  ;)
... who the f*** would mix vanilla and banana anyway?  8)  only those stupid Metallicafans do that.

When I will reach the point where I understand by experience what Matthew means, then his words will come in handy, they are not rejected. When Matthew will reach the point where he understands by experience what I mean, then my words will help him ... until then, yes, Matthew can defend himself ... we know that now since he came out with his alter ego "Mr. TiB" ... *shudder* ... run for it lads!!  ;D

Andrew, if you see some riples on the surface of your pond, don't forget it's your pond ... listen to Master!!

Shanti, Shanti, Shanti & Metta, Stefan
anicca

Stefan

  • The Marvellous Omannobazong!!!
  • Member
  • love is the key
    • Vipassana (Goenka), Freestyle, Family, God
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2011, 09:33:58 AM »

try and connect with mysterious Torgeir!

... out of the blue we hear from our fascinating Jedi friend and within a post or two his new found fire is directed at Matthew.


omg, torgeir, we're busted!!!
the very secret "Yoda-Spock-TeamUp-to-bring-down-The-Irreverent-Buddhist"-conspiracy blown into oblivion by a monkey in lotus posture!          ... we might as well leave the planet ...

 :D sorry, mate, I couldn't resist at all :D
anicca

Andrew

  • Member
    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2011, 09:48:54 AM »
Can I help it if I always wanted to have a Jedi explain the dhamma to me?  :P

Torgier, mate,  I'm still waiting on that article I asked for months ago, "The Dhamma of George Lucas!".
Though we do not know one another, I hope you see my posts as an invitation to share, not a rebuttle or defence. I'm genuinely interested.

TMO and MD think I don't learn my lessons, which is fine, they are probably right.  I just noticed a 'fire' in your posts that I liked, and I agreed with the sentiment that endlessly debating technicalities is pointless and leads to a false sense of wisdom. I just want to see if you were living your revelation, or are yourself a card carrying member of the GWWACBA on trolling duties. A simple challenge, none of the technical crap you despise.

More power to you, and I hope to add you as a spiritual friend around here for the purpose of true growth.

Now where are MD and TMO, I feel like teasing them some more... :D

love to All,
Andrew

« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 09:52:03 AM by Andrew »
getting it done

Stefan

  • The Marvellous Omannobazong!!!
  • Member
  • love is the key
    • Vipassana (Goenka), Freestyle, Family, God
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2011, 10:24:51 AM »

I'm sorry to say that Torgeir left for Dagobar system while I am about to head back to Vulcan.
Our mission has failed. But don't worry, Dusko will have you by the ears in case you don't behave!

 ;D
anicca

Quardamon

  • Member
    • Teachers were: P.K.K. Mettavihari, Frits Koster, Nel Kliphuis. (In the line of Mahasi Sayadaw)
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2011, 10:41:02 AM »
Andy you can ignore this advice but waste no energy on TMO and Torgeir and Matthew can defend himself. You are doing the same as you did when going agaist Matthew just this time you are Protecting the Autorithy figure :)
`

Well spoken.




  . . .   sounds authoritarian, does it not?  Like I am the one who can judge the whole thing, and give my judgement in just two words.

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2011, 12:11:34 PM »

 'authority drama'


...

abandoning this authority coin ... what do we have then? A fellow meditator who is extremely helpful but not enlightened yet and who may also need a hint or two. Not everything that is said to Matthew is to be filed under authority drama. Not everything.

Correctamundo.

In the meantime ... Johnny Rotten was at least authentic ....

Johhny may have been "authentic" but The sex Pistols, far from being authentic, were one of the first truly plastic-pop bands. They were thoroughly manufactured by Malcolm McLaren:

Quote
By 1976, McLaren had started to manage The Strand, the band that later became the Sex Pistols.[1] He soon convinced them to kick guitarist/songwriter Wally Nightingale out of the band and also introduced them to bassist Glen Matlock (who worked in SEX). His assistant, Bernie Rhodes (soon to be manager of The Clash), spotted John Lydon who was then sporting green hair, and torn clothes with the words "I hate" scribbled on his Pink Floyd shirt. His appearance and attitude impressed McLaren, and Lydon, now dubbed "Johnny Rotten", was brought in to audition as a new frontman. Rotten joined, and the band was renamed The Sex Pistols (McLaren stated he wanted them to sound like "sexy young assassins").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_McLaren
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Stefan

  • The Marvellous Omannobazong!!!
  • Member
  • love is the key
    • Vipassana (Goenka), Freestyle, Family, God
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2011, 04:56:27 PM »


Johhny may have been "authentic" but The sex Pistols, far from being authentic, were one of the first truly plastic-pop bands.


Very true. That's why John Lydon had a life after the Pistols while all the other Pistols including Mc Laren were gone afterwards.
I really love "PIL-album", where Lydon teams up with young Steve Vai (who dropped all those incredible guitar stunts on this LP). That was avantgarde par excellence. Still listen to it at times. "Round" was always my favorite song as a teenager.

Metta, Stefan

PS.: Chapman? Who is Chapman??   ;)
... sorry, Purple, for hijacking ...
anicca

Andrew

  • Member
    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2011, 02:14:29 AM »
My guide to Vanilla and Bananna Meditation

First one must realise that Vanilla and Bananna are not contradicting flavours but rather complementary. Sometimes you want some Vanilla, sometimes Bananna, sometimes both.

When you have Vanilla it will leave it's flavour on your tongue, the key here is to Taste it.
when you have Bananna it will leave it's flavour on your tongue, the key here is to Taste it.

Which of course leads us to conclude that Vanilla and Bannana Meditation is actually Taste meditation.

Through extension of this concept you can easily see than you can have Tuna and Salad Meditation as well without actually doing anything different; it is still Taste Meditation.

Anyone doing Vanilla Meditation or Tuna meditation or Black Pudding Meditation without actually doing Taste meditation are actually just getting fat.

So Mr Chapman claims Buddhism has been reinvented through the influence of Christianity and the West. How ironic then that Christianity was Judaism being reinvented through the influence of Buddhism and the East!

I would like my certificate now.

Andy
GWWACBA member.


 
getting it done

dragoneye

  • Member
  • on the wings of compassion and wisdom
    • Observant
Re: David Chapman on the Re-Invention Of Buddhism and Vipassana
« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2011, 05:24:59 AM »
So Mr Chapman claims Buddhism has been reinvented through the influence of Christianity and the West. How ironic then that Christianity was Judaism being reinvented through the influence of Buddhism and the East!
Wow Andy, really amazing! ::)
I have a lot of Googling to do now ???
Thanks, with metta,
DE
Dragoneye