Author Topic: Vitamine D  (Read 8792 times)

Stefan

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Vitamine D
« on: June 23, 2011, 07:50:11 PM »
Hi folks!

So, this post is about the risks of taking too much „Vitamin D“. Why?
As many of you have read before, Matthew has been advising the supplementation of Vitamin D in this forum for quite a while now. I don't want to contradict him! This post isn't intended to quarrel about the issue. I fully realise that it has helped him and others (thats why Dusko took on to advising it, too). My only intention is to add some  informations that Matthew never mentions (ar at least I never read that he mentioned it).

While Matthew has an authority concerning questions on the Dhamma path (an authority arising from his own experiences as well as knowledge of writings and citings of the Buddha), he has not so much authority in advising supplementations like that. He has his experience, yes, but there are no texts where the Buddha advises Vit D3 supplementation. ;) (sorry for never ever being 100% serious ...)

I studied biology, and I did a lot biochemistry and physiology stuff. My wife is a healer. We know quite a lot of people whose job it is to know about those things, and for the sake of this post I discussed this issue with them. First thing to say: the positive effects that Matthew mentions are backed up by them. I will not discuss them since Matthew has been very precise on that topic. But there are risks he didn't mention. That's why I do it now ....
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 07:57:02 PM by The Marvellous Omannobazong!!! »
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Stefan

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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2011, 07:50:27 PM »
RISKS OF VITAMIN D SUPPLEMENTATION.

For all vitamines goes the rule: too little is not good. But there are only a few vitamines that can cause damage if you have too much. Vitamine D is one of them. You cannot have too much Vit D with ordinary food, and short term supplementations could hardly provide a surplus that is risky.

But long term supplementations are risky. Whats more, the symptoms of a hypervitaminosis (=  „too much of a vitamine“) of Vitamin D are often not perceptible up to a rather advanced state.

Symptoms of Vitamin D-hypervitaminosis:

Rachitis: Too little Calcium in the bones (as a result of a dramatically increased Calcium metabolism).
So, Vitamin D in too little AND too high doses lead to rachitis!

Kidney problems: Too much Calcium in the whole body, especially the kidneys (up to an irreversible point). Since the  surplus of Calcium is poisonous to the body, the kidneys try to get rid of it. But Calcium is „sticky“, so there will be more and more Calcium in all tissues of the body but especially the kidneys.

Hypercalcemia: Weakness of muscle tissue, digestive problems, low appetite, arhythmic heartbeat, polyuria. Advanced states: Confusion, psychic problems, coma.
Crisis: life threatening (as you may have guessed by now) where you have all these symptoms in a massive attack.

Diagnosis:

The diagnosis is often stated more or less by chance, since the symptoms sometimes don't show up to an advanced state. And Hypervitaminosis with Vitamin D is not a common diagnosis, since normally one has to push it to get there.

ADVICE ON VTAMIN D SUPPLEMENTATION


... no advice from me here. Ask a doctor, have your Vit D level checked, then you are on the save side and will benefit from it as Matthew described.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 08:19:06 PM by The Marvellous Omannobazong!!! »
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Vivek

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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2011, 07:00:32 AM »
I read that daily dose of up to 10,000 IU is OK, does not cause any adverse effect. I haven't come across any posts in the forums which recommend more than this limit. As for me, I make it a point to get enough sunshine everyday (diificult, but I try to), since, I live in a tropical region. Oh, I love bright, sunny days over here! :)
Let's go beyond this illusion, shall we?

Stefan

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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2011, 07:20:05 AM »
I read that daily dose of up to 10,000 IU is OK, does not cause any adverse effect. I haven't come across any posts in the forums which recommend more than this limit. As for me, I make it a point to get enough sunshine everyday (diificult, but I try to), since, I live in a tropical region. Oh, I love bright, sunny days over here! :)

Of course, with your daily sunshine noone here would even think of VitD-supplementation  ;)
The daily dose won't be the problem as such. As I pointed out, short term supplementations can hardly cause the described effects. But long term supplementations might be dangerous. So, it's not so much the daily dose that'd worry me but the length of supplementation. Weeks? Months? Years?
And then, maybe the cause for disturbances were NOT a lack of Vit D in the first place .... no supplementation should be advised without a proper check first. That's a rule noone should break. Think of it, maybe you have sufficient Vit D ... and then you start to add another 10,000 IU per day .... you get the picture, I think ...
I don't tell you "bad things will happen" ... I simply advise to be careful with this special substance.

May you all be healthy!

Metta, Stefan
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 07:43:36 AM by The Marvellous Omannobazong!!! »
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Vivek

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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2011, 07:35:28 AM »
Got it: "Excess of Vitamin D intake can be injurious to health, please consult your physician first." :)
Let's go beyond this illusion, shall we?

Stefan

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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2011, 07:47:41 AM »


Got it: "Excess of Vitamin D intake can be injurious to health, please consult your physician first." :)


 :) Nice'n'easy!

And I needed a whole page to point that out ...  ;)
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Vivek

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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2011, 08:10:52 AM »
LOL :)
Let's go beyond this illusion, shall we?

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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2011, 08:35:04 AM »
How many IU of D vitamin can a human generate if hanging all day out on the sun? Lets say this is a farmer from Bali

Vivek

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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2011, 09:16:14 AM »
I am not really sure how much, but should be more than enough. This is nature's way to ensure nutrition for the body and of course, has been around far longer than Vitamin pills.
Let's go beyond this illusion, shall we?

Stefan

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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2011, 09:34:34 AM »
without knowing details here, but a doc I know said that a "natural" VitD insufficiency (as caused by lack of sun) isn't known in the tropic regions. Of course, also a balinese farmer can have a disease that somehow reduces his VitD, then he'll need supplementation, of course.

By chance I had a checkup of my body made not so long ago. (it was not cheap, I tell you!)
Though living in middle europe my VitD was all right, although winter was just over and I am vegetarian and don't drink fish oil, YUCK!  ;D  so, in my case, everything was all right. In my wifes case, she was very low on iron, which she is now supplementing. She had had malaria (which affects the blood also and causes Anemia). She gave birth to our two children and nursed them for two years each. So all the storage was empty, now she's filling up again. Just told this to point out that I am absolutely NOT against supplementation. But it's a complex field! My wife had also her copper checked, because without copper you cannot absorb sufficient amounts of iron. so we had to find out wether she needs copper supplementation or iron supplementation or both.

Body is complicated. Sitting is easy!  :)
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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2011, 09:37:28 AM »
Body is complicated. Sitting is easy!  :)

Now THAT is the line of the century!  :-*
getting it done

Morning Dew

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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2011, 09:52:19 AM »
Quote
Though living in middle europe my VitD was all right, although winter was just over and I am vegetarian and don't drink fish oil, YUCK!    so, in my case, everything was all right.

Can you give us the numbers Stefan? What is your "all right" D3 vitamin blood level?

Stefan

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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2011, 09:56:08 AM »
*sigh*   and I was logged out already when I read  that


Can you give us the numbers Stefan? What is your "all right" D3 vitamin blood level?


No, I will not be dragged into this ... again ...  ;)
I had my say. That's it.

Metta, Stefan
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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2011, 10:17:52 AM »
No reason for being defensive in a friendly discussion you started :) right?

I would like to compare numbers and see what Austrian doctors call "all right" levels that is all. Can you please get these numbers mate. No rush get them when you can.

Thank you

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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2011, 11:35:29 AM »
According to the NHS (National Health Service in UK) wensite any unused VitD is stored in the body for future use, it also states that anybody eating a balanced diet and getting some exposure to the sun does not need to suplement with VitD.

Plus a quote from them;
"Most people should be able to get the vitamin D they need by eating a varied and balanced diet and by getting some sun. If you take vitamin D supplements, do not take too much.

Taking 25 micrograms (0.025mg) or less a day of vitamin D supplements is unlikely to cause any harm."

Stefan

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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2011, 11:40:31 AM »

No reason for being defensive in a friendly discussion you started :) right?


Defensive?
Passive.

A discussion?
Additional information.

I started it?
Matthew did a while ago.

Friendly?
Yes, I like that.  :)

I don't want to discuss my or any others blood or physiology here. Neither the need for supplementation nor right or wrong levels and numbers. You will find those numbers somewhere in the internet, I am sure. It is not my theme. being careful is my theme. What I needed to say, I said. But please feel free to post any information on VitD here and discuss pros and cons of this specific supplementation. That would be a good thing since there is interest.
(I also sent a PM to Matthew yesterday where I asked him to link his informations to this thread.)

Metta, Stefan
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Stefan

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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2011, 10:58:50 AM »

... Matthew and I agreed to join our informations into one article as soon as he's back from vacation.

Be healthy!
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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2011, 12:01:32 AM »
Got it: "Excess of Vitamin D intake can be injurious to health, please consult your physician first." :)

Your physician is the last person who will know the truth. As I have always said get the Vit D (25) OHD serum blood test and supplement til you are around 70 - 80 ng/ml and test twice a year to check.

Actually Stefan, I spent a year reading the scientific literature on Vit D and know more about it than the vast majority of the medical profession. I will post a full article when I return from my break - this is a flying visit.

The problems with Calcium come down to two issues - either too little calcium in your diet - so when you get the Vit D level right it starts sucking calcium from your bones for other purposes - or too little Vit K2 in your diet - which makes sure the Vit D and calcium goes to the right places - this is what leads to calcification in the kidneys and other soft tissues.

Be well, be back full time in a couple of weeks :)

Matthew
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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2011, 12:04:34 AM »
PS In summer sun full body exposure the body creates 20 - 30,000 UI of Vitamin D from Cholesterol in half an hour. The excess that is not needed is then broken down by a further reaction, probably triggered by UvB light, but as yet scientifically undetermined.
 
This is why most old people are chronically short of vitamin D after a lifetime of modern living and chronically ill with high cholesterol levels. Simples.
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Stefan

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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2011, 05:44:43 AM »

I'm really looking forward to have these infos summed up! There's a lot to it, I'm sure.
My infos were researched in two days only (save my background knowledge from university), as I wanted to give a quick warning in addition to a quick advice ....  ;)
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Stefan

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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2011, 05:48:19 AM »
Got it: "Excess of Vitamin D intake can be injurious to health, please consult your physician first." :)

Your physician is the last person who will know the truth. As I have always said get the Vit D (25) OHD serum blood test and supplement til you are around 70 - 80 ng/ml and test twice a year to check.


... the physician is the one who should tell you exactly that. But I know, that's more a wish than reality sometimes.
btw. I'm quite lucky to know a good doc. What is so special about her? She listens to her patients! A rare gift ...
« Last Edit: June 26, 2011, 05:50:27 AM by The Marvellous Omannobazong!!! »
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Stefan

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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2013, 03:54:57 PM »

... a looong winter lies behind us, no sun, no sun ... in march I noticed increasing symptoms of low Vit D level, I was so tired in the morning, had no drive at all, fell into depression without apparent reason and a few others. Went to the doctor, had my vit D checked, found it to be rather low, supplement for two weeks now, feel a lot better already.

Sun is back now, still supplementation is neccesary until I reach a minimum of "normality".

So, guys from the north, feel groggy lately? ;)
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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2013, 10:00:05 PM »
You betcha!!! Due to my horrible past kamma I was born Canadian :'( :'( :'( :'( must have poisoned the Dalai or some high ranking monk. :angel:

It's  -2 today and tonight it will feel like -8.  ??? :'( ??? :'( ??? :'(

What is this sun(thing) you speak of, it sounds interesting  ::) and I'm going to the doctor tomorrow for a case of those vitamin D injections. Thanks Stefan ;D
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 10:05:07 PM by redalert »

Stefan

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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2013, 08:59:45 AM »
You need sunlight on your skin for the body to produce Vit D. Long winter, hat, thick coat, stay inside ... then the Vit D will go down. There's not much food to provide us with sufficient Vit D. So, after a long winter, depressions or tiredness might be a sign for low Vit D.
No injections needed. There's pills.

Ah, well, Canada ...
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redalert

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Re: Vitamine D
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2013, 10:31:30 PM »
It was 6 degrees today and the sun was out, made a fire in the backyard and sat in a lawnchair sunbathing. It does really lift the spirits to be outside in the sun. Do you think cold climate dwellers have developed the ability to suck all the vitamin D they need through their face? ;)

I was reading about vitamin D as I have been on a juice cleanse, it seems that their are no fruits and veggies that give vitamin D naturally. I read that mushrooms are a good natural source. Cannot juice them though. :'(

Oh well off to the tanning bed. ;)